Pandinus imperator died

[darlingi]

My adult male emperor died yesterday and I didn’t see it coming at all. He was born in June 2018, so he was barely 6 and a half years old. Opinions on their life span seem to differ, but that’s probably too young to consider “old age” as the reason for his death.

He looks really thin to me, which makes me think I may have underfed him. It’s odd, because whenever I fed the guy (dubia roach) within the 2 years I’ve had him, he seemed to stay fat forever. So I never really had a feeding routine and went by eye (like I do with my adult tarantulas), and I somehow must have overlooked his skinny state.
Is malnutrition the likely cause of death here? Aren’t they supposed to be able to survive a long time without food, especially as adults?

In terms of moisture I noticed that he hung out on his water dish a few weeks ago - ever since I was extra careful to not let things dry out. On the day he died there was still water in the dish and moist sub under his hide. I saw him walking around moving his claws and looking like trying to sting himself today, a few hours later I found him motionless laying on his side.

 

[MorbidArachnid]

Sorry for your loss, he looks *extremely* thin, so I would definitely guess dehydration is the underlying issue. It's really hard to kill them from starvation tbh, if he ate within the last 6 or so months I wouldn't think that's a possibility at all. That being said, I don't think the cause of death was a care issue, he had a water dish and if the substrates were moist I would say it was likely old age that caused him to start refusing food and water until he ultimately died. Mature males wont eat as much and his poor body condition could be from that.

 

[darlingi]

Sorry for your loss, he looks *extremely* thin, so I would definitely guess dehydration is the underlying issue. It's really hard to kill them from starvation tbh, if he ate within the last 6 or so months I wouldn't think that's a possibility at all. That being said, I don't think the cause of death was a care issue, he had a water dish and if the substrates were moist I would say it was likely old age that caused him to start refusing food and water until he ultimately died. Mature males wont eat as much and his poor body condition could be from that.

Thank you! I can‘t say for sure how long he went without food, but it couldn’t have been more than 3 months. I don’t know if he refused food (because I didn’t offer for a while) but yeah, maybe he was just approaching his end and he wouldn’t have made it much further.

 

[Ramen]

Sorry for your loss dude.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Sorry for your loss, possibly old age?

 

[darlingi]

Sorry for your loss, possibly old age?

Thanks! Yeah, maybe. It's hard to say since reported life spans range from 6-8 to 15+ years. What this has taught me anyway, is that I should start taking notes for feeding etc. again, so that I can hold myself accountable in these situations without beating myself up when I may not actually be guilty.

 

[Brewser]

It seems that His time has come to pass.
Try not to second guess Yourself.
Take care,

 

[darkness975]

Sadly emps are less long lived than some other species like Hadrurus. 6 - 10 years is probably the range.

 

[darlingi]

I noticed some dark spots on the underside of his body and took a closer look with my crappy microscope today. Turns out that there are a few odd spots on the joints and on one of the pectines too. I’m wondering if it’s just scars or if he may have had some kind of sickness. Maybe someone gets an idea from these pictures.

 

[Veno Manus]

Unfortunately without talking with the scorpion there's always a mystery involved. Invertebrates are just a wonder to us all as much as we are to them. Depending on the last meal size and nutrition, it would be a thought that they can live long periods without any food. But with that being said, without a regular feeding schedule or an idea on the relivence to its needs, the period of long-term fasting is a big ( ? ) some have claimed 1 year and some have claimed 2 years but it's entirely up to the health of the scorpion. Chance it could be a fungal infection, lack of nutrition, hydration, mites etc... unless you know exactly what you are looking at and for and also the characteristics of your specific species, it makes things hard to judge. Temp and humidity play a major role as well Emperors are high humidity and higher then average heat. Mimicking their environment can prove a good healthy establishment and provide a secure base for a check mark on husbandry to rule out. The thinness of the scorpion definitely signifies a sort of " lack " or internal issue. Some survive long periods throughout adulthood and some just simply don't. You may have done nothing wrong even. But this is just the roll of the dice we play as keepers. Sorry for your loss on top of all this. I had to rehome my female after she dropped a brood to free up some room. I payed over $150 for her and she was an absolute unit of a scorpion. The best thing to always do is to not beat yourself up.

 

[Veno Manus]

How's the ventilation in the setup?? It's rare for Forest type scorpions to get fungal micosis but bacterial micosis can still happen if the environment is to closed off. If there's not enough airflow, there's a chance it could of been a brewing bacterial infection that wasn't easily caught by eye.

 

[darlingi]

How's the ventilation in the setup?? It's rare for Forest type scorpions to get fungal micosis but bacterial micosis can still happen if the environment is to closed off. If there's not enough airflow, there's a chance it could of been a brewing bacterial infection that wasn't easily caught by eye.

He was in a european style glass enclosure (lots of cross-ventilation), so I doubt that was the problem. Perhaps we're just looking at some wounds/scar tissue? The black spot on the pectines doesn't look like an injury to me though.

 

[darlingi]

Unfortunately without talking with the scorpion there's always a mystery involved. Invertebrates are just a wonder to us all as much as we are to them. Depending on the last meal size and nutrition, it would be a thought that they can live long periods without any food. But with that being said, without a regular feeding schedule or an idea on the relivence to its needs, the period of long-term fasting is a big ( ? ) some have claimed 1 year and some have claimed 2 years but it's entirely up to the health of the scorpion. Chance it could be a fungal infection, lack of nutrition, hydration, mites etc... unless you know exactly what you are looking at and for and also the characteristics of your specific species, it makes things hard to judge. Temp and humidity play a major role as well Emperors are high humidity and higher then average heat. Mimicking their environment can prove a good healthy establishment and provide a secure base for a check mark on husbandry to rule out. The thinness of the scorpion definitely signifies a sort of " lack " or internal issue. Some survive long periods throughout adulthood and some just simply don't. You may have done nothing wrong even. But this is just the roll of the dice we play as keepers. Sorry for your loss on top of all this. I had to rehome my female after she dropped a brood to free up some room. I payed over $150 for her and she was an absolute unit of a scorpion. The best thing to always do is to not beat yourself up.

First of all, thank you! I've always fed him adult dubias and the last feeding was probably within the last 6 weeks, but at max 3 months ago. Now that you mentioned temperatures; I turned off the heating for the summer because temps went up to like 28C/82F in here and I hadn't turned it back on yet. So it was 22C/71,5F in the room when he died. While being lower than recommended, it's probably not a critical temperature? When I started keeping him he went a long time without additional heating and seemed to do fine, but looking back now, maybe that took a toll on his health. Do you have any experiences with male lifespans for this species?

 

[MorbidArachnid]

Those spots don't look like mycosis at least, I wouldn't be able to say for bacterial infection. Mycosis very rarely/almost never attacks the soft tissue of the joints, it wears away at the cuticle and is more common on the ends of tarsi or pectines, areas that have constant contact with the substrate. The circular black dots and the black with the woody looking scab around it looks like wounds to me, as part of their immune response damage to their cuticle also turns black. For the black dots on the belly you can tell by looking through a black light, a cuticle wound will have jagged sharp edges where mycosis you can see the cuticle rotting away. Still inclined to think old age, colder temps probably weren't great, arthropods in general use warmer temps to improve their immune response and aid in digestion and tropical scorps are used to it being fairly warm year round. That being said theres no way to tell if a few degrees would make a difference, I personally am for higher temps generally but I can't say how cold is too cold and has detrimental effects.

 

[Wolfram1]

Still inclined to think old age, colder temps probably weren't great, arthropods in general use warmer temps to improve their immune response and aid in digestion and tropical scorps are used to it being fairly warm year round. That being said theres no way to tell if a few degrees would make a difference, I personally am for higher temps generally but I can't say how cold is too cold and has detrimental effects.

i would think so too, old age seems a likely reason, especially if you didnt miss a possible molt, after which it may have had reduced reserves...


that said other arthropods seem to do perfectly fine, or even better with lower temperature ranges. My Heterometrus sp. do not seem to suffer at all from temperatures around 20°C

 

[Joey Spijkers]

Also scorpions deflate after death. If there is a possibility he has been laying there for a day, he could already have deflated quite a lot in that time, making him look way thinner than when he was alive. So I don't think that's something to worry about.

 

[darlingi]

Also scorpions deflate after death. If there is a possibility he has been laying there for a day, he could already have deflated quite a lot in that time, making him look way thinner than when he was alive. So I don't think that's something to worry about.

Oh that's a good point. Can it really happen that quickly though? I found him on Monday afternoon and if I remember correctly, I didn't notice his thin body until I looked at him again at 1 am before I went to bed. I might've simply missed it when I first found him, but maybe 8-9 hours were enough for his body to shrink.

 

[darlingi]

Those spots don't look like mycosis at least, I wouldn't be able to say for bacterial infection. Mycosis very rarely/almost never attacks the soft tissue of the joints, it wears away at the cuticle and is more common on the ends of tarsi or pectines, areas that have constant contact with the substrate. The circular black dots and the black with the woody looking scab around it looks like wounds to me, as part of their immune response damage to their cuticle also turns black. For the black dots on the belly you can tell by looking through a black light, a cuticle wound will have jagged sharp edges where mycosis you can see the cuticle rotting away. Still inclined to think old age, colder temps probably weren't great, arthropods in general use warmer temps to improve their immune response and aid in digestion and tropical scorps are used to it being fairly warm year round. That being said theres no way to tell if a few degrees would make a difference, I personally am for higher temps generally but I can't say how cold is too cold and has detrimental effects.

Alright, thanks! I wouldn't have considered mycosis/some kind of sickness if it wasn't for his weird behavior in the morning before his passing;

I saw him walking around moving his claws and looking like trying to sting himself today, a few hours later I found him motionless laying on his side.

which seems so contradicting, because I'd expect a starving/dehydrated/elderly animal to barely move until it dies. Well, that'll probably remain a mystery.

 

[Joey Spijkers]

Oh that's a good point. Can it really happen that quickly though? I found him on Monday afternoon and if I remember correctly, I didn't notice his thin body until I looked at him again at 1 am before I went to bed. I might've simply missed it when I first found him, but maybe 8-9 hours were enough for his body to shrink.

Not in 9 hours I don't think, but who knows for how long he was dead when you found him. In 24 hours, yes.

 

[MorbidArachnid]

i would think so too, old age seems a likely reason, especially if you didnt miss a possible molt, after which it may have had reduced reserves...


that said other arthropods seem to do perfectly fine, or even better with lower temperature ranges. My Heterometrus sp. do not seem to suffer at all from temperatures around 20°C

Stop keeping tropical arthropods at room temps i digress, I've had this conversation before in the tarantula chat. Def think the two main deficits of care with scorpions is temps and water though, and it seems to be the underlying issue with a lot of help threads I see. I can't say for sure what temperatures are technically fine, but in Southern Thailand and Malaysia they rarely if ever experience temps below 24C, and summer temps get a lot higher than that.