Not enough substrate consequences

[vounti]

Hello everyone,

I read that some species, when given not enough substrate, will web much more. When buying, I knew I'd get pet holes and it's totally fine, don't get me wrong but I'd love to see them a bit more. I'm wondering what are the consequences though. I'll get more defensives spiders, sure but it is healthy for them ? Can it induce stress that will reduce their life quality ?
Currently I don't plan on getting them in terrestrial enclosures but if some experienced people tell me that it is safe for them, I might consider it.

I currently have a C. lividus, a E. cyanognathus, a P. murinus, a C. marshalli and a C. fimbriatus. If some of you have recommendation or experience with these species (or with fossorials in general) I'd gladly take your opinion. Thanks

 

[emartinm28]

The natural behavior of these species dictates that they burrow. More defensive behavior is a sign of stress, so yes not providing adequate space to make a proper burrow will lead to greater stress and quality of life. You wouldn’t keep an avic terrestrially, right? Same goes for fossorials. Some may disagree or say they’ve had success keeping them terrestrially but imo there are plenty of terrestrial species out there that will stay out in the open so there’s really no justification for forcing a fossorial T to stay visible

 

[viper69]

Hello everyone,

I read that some species, when given not enough substrate, will web much more. When buying, I knew I'd get pet holes and it's totally fine, don't get me wrong but I'd love to see them a bit more. I'm wondering what are the consequences though. I'll get more defensives spiders, sure but it is healthy for them ? Can it induce stress that will reduce their life quality ?
Currently I don't plan on getting them in terrestrial enclosures but if some experienced people tell me that it is safe for them, I might consider it.

I currently have a C. lividus, a E. cyanognathus, a P. murinus, a C. marshalli and a C. fimbriatus. If some of you have recommendation or experience with these species (or with fossorials in general) I'd gladly take your opinion. Thanks

These species should be given enough sub to burrow. Not providing it isn’t good for them, may lead to them feeling less secure- ie stress.

How would you feel without a house?

If you aren’t putting in enough substrate simply because you want to see them more- that’s nothing more than selfish behavior, and honestly you should own different species, like a dog or a cat.

 

[vounti]

If you aren’t putting in enough substrate simply because you want to see them more- that’s nothing more than selfish behavior, and honestly you should own different species, like a dog or a cat.

I already have a dog ahah. That guy is the most adorable pet I've ever had. I feel like your reply is a bit harsh since it's not like I was planning on providing poor care, I was just asking for opinions. I think it's just who you are (no offense). In my country we'd say you are cash, meaning you say what you think and don't care if someone is offended
I would never overlook animal husbandry just for myself. I totally love these animals the way they are but you know, the more they are out the more you can observe them.

Thank you both for the reply guys

 

[viper69]

I already have a dog ahah. That guy is the most adorable pet I've ever had. I feel like your reply is a bit harsh since it's not like I was planning on providing poor care, I was just asking for opinions. I think it's just who you are (no offense). In my country we'd say you are cash, meaning you say what you think and don't care if someone is offended
I totally love these animals the way they are but you know, the more they are out the more you can observe them.

Thank you both for the reply guys

I’m direct, no time to tell bedtime stories. I care about the exotic animals, I don’t care about their human owners generally.

Agreed interesting to observe- however not interesting to observe unnatural captive behavior. Who wants to observe that?????

Lastly in my experience many people don’t ask about things they AREN’T planning on doing or considering, they ask about things they ARE considering to do.

Enjoy!

 

[Smotzer]

He’s not being harsh lol he’s telling you exactly what you need to hear and for the sake of the animal. They are fossorial and should be set up as so, period. If you don’t want a pet hole than get a terrestrial. There are pros and cons to each but each should be set up appropriately based on their needs. It’s the same thing why we don’t put terrestrials in enclosures that are set up for an arboreal. Sure you could set a fossorial without substrate to burrow, but doesn’t mean you should.

 

[Iamconstantlyhappy]

I already have a dog ahah. That guy is the most adorable pet I've ever had. I feel like your reply is a bit harsh since it's not like I was planning on providing poor care, I was just asking for opinions. I think it's just who you are (no offense). In my country we'd say you are cash, meaning you say what you think and don't care if someone is offended
I would never overlook animal husbandry just for myself. I totally love these animals the way they are but you know, the more they are out the more you can observe them.

Thank you both for the reply guys

He is being straight to the point and brutally honest; that's a good thing. Look at the amount of posts Viper has. He has years of experience. He is not being harsh, he has seen and read the same old questions over and over, and I'm sure it gets old. Say thank you that he bothers to answer you.

We keep these animals for their beauty, fascinating biology/behaviour (among a myriad of other reasons). They did not choose to be placed in box and sat on the shelf for our amusement. As such, it is our duty and responsibility to these creatures to provide them with a semblance of a natural existence. It's fossorial in the wild? That's its nature. Yes it will survive (although I'm sure there are no papers addressing the longevity of captive tarantulas kept within/without the parameters of their natural environments), but bad husbandry for self gain is wrong.

 

[moricollins]

I would expand on @Iamconstantlyhappy 's post to say:
It is our duty to give them the most appropriate housing and care we possibly can. Choosing to deny it enough substrate depth to borrow and feel secure just so that you can see it more often isn't meeting what I consider my responsibility in owning a pet.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Never being a 'substrate Scrooge', by Jove!

 

[vounti]

Don't worry about the husbandry. As I said, I will never ever neglect animal care for my own sake. As stated in the first post, I would have considered it IF (several) experienced people told me it was cool. I know I have a lot to learn but I am not dumb enough to provide poor care. As you all know, tarantula care is loaded with bad information and this is exactly why I post on here

If I didn't care about my husbandry, I wouldn't have asked. I got my answer and it's all good, just what I needed. I didn't need a lesson on why I shouldn't be selfish with animals. I feel like you guys think I'm going for poor care while I'm not and won't. Going into an argument is the total opposite of why I came here. I'm thankful for the replies but not for the contempt

Again, I thank you all for taking time to answer

 

[BoyFromLA]

Your tarantula may not use the hide you provided. Your tarantula may not drink water from the water dish you provided. Your tarantula may not be burrowing with the deep substrate you provided (if it is a fossorial one).

However, at least, these should be the options that your tarantula to choose or choose not to.

 

[Kibosh]

Here is a whole thread on how you can see your fossorials while also using good husbandry and it's recent. https://arachnoboards.com/threads/fossorials-whats-the-point-of-keeping-them-😂.342321/#post-3144599

Don't compromise or cut corners when it comes to your T's needs vs your own.

 

[Smotzer]

I feel like you guys think I'm going for poor care while I'm not and won't. Going into an argument is the total opposite of why I came here. I'm thankful for the replies but not for the contempt

So friend, we are not arguing with you and there is no contempt coming from any of us, we are just being very matter of fact. New people often mistake blunt honesty as an attack or contempt as you say, but that is not what happens or is going on here. You are welcome here and if need be we will be very direct and honest about issues, comments, or concerns for the sake of the arachnid or invertebrate. No one has any hard feelings here, unless you do. AB is a great place to learn and grow!

 

[vounti]

So friend, we are not arguing with you and there is no contempt coming from any of us, we are just being very matter of fact. New people often mistake blunt honesty as an attack or contempt as you say, but that is not what happens or is going on here. You are welcome here and if need be we will be very direct and honest about issues, comments, or concerns for the sake of the arachnid or invertebrate. No one has any hard feelings here, unless you do. AB is a great place to learn and grow!

Indeed I think that some messages are difficult to interpret (might be the wrong word) through writing. This is good to know! Thanks for clarifying this !

 

[viper69]

Indeed I think that some messages are difficult to interpret (might be the wrong word) through writing. This is good to know! Thanks for clarifying this !

You will not find a more helpful board dedicated to Ts on the planet-at least in the English language. There are other forums such as German, but I cannot say what they are like as I cannot read German.
People are passionate about the animals in our care.

 

[l4nsky]

Indeed I think that some messages are difficult to interpret (might be the wrong word) through writing. This is good to know! Thanks for clarifying this !

That's the right attitude to have and a true assessment of the difficulty interpreting the meaning behind a text based answer. If you keep that attitude and never assume someone is being harsh by giving a brusque reply, you will mesh very well with this community. To answer your original question, I've kept an obligate fossorial (a P. muticus) on both deep and shallow substrate. I didn't keep the T on shallow soil because I wanted it to be more visible however. I kept the KBB on shallow substrate to get a sexable molt as fossorials are notorious for webbing their old molts into the sides of their burrow instead of kicking it out for us keepers to sex. After I was able to sex it, my KBB was rehoused into several inches of substrate where it promptly did what fossorials do (burrow to the bottom). I believe it is stressful for them if they are exposed and can't feel the security of their burrow. To mitigate this, I kept the KBB in a relatively shallow enclosure with little space between the top of the substrate and the top of the enclosure to imitate a burrow. I had to deal with a rather irate tarantula everytime I performed husbandry as to the T, opening the enclosure was basically the same as me digging it up. For the tarantulas sake and for your own safety, I recommended following the advice given and keep them on a deep substrate to avoid constantly having to deal with a scared, defensive animal with medically significant venom. If you want them to be more visible, you can keep them in tall, narrow enclosures so you have a better chance of having them create a burrow next to the enclosure's side. You can also create a starter burrow for them in the corner of their enclosure in the hope that they burrow along the enclosure's side as well.

 

[RoachCoach]

You will not find a more helpful board dedicated to Ts on the planet-at least in the English language. There are other forums such as German, but I cannot say what they are like as I cannot read German.
People are passionate about the animals in our care.

If you could read German I bet they have daily logs and excel spreadsheets for I/O, daily temp fluctuations, scheduled dietary changes by season and more for each and every one. There is a phrase in German my friend use to say. I can't remember it and I took 4 years of German in Highschool...

 

[l4nsky]

If you could read German I bet they have daily logs and excel spreadsheets for I/O, daily temp fluctuations, scheduled dietary changes by season and more for each and every one. There is a phrase in German my friend use to say. I can't remember it and I took 4 years of German in Highschool...

And now I have to learn German............

 

[viper69]

If you could read German I bet they have daily logs and excel spreadsheets for I/O, daily temp fluctuations, scheduled dietary changes by season and more for each and every one. There is a phrase in German my friend use to say. I can't remember it and I took 4 years of German in Highschool...

They have the gene for details, no question there. I know MANY Germans