My First Bite :(

[Julia]

Ugh... I'm whiny and miserable at the moment... So I figured I'd tell a story!

The specimens:



These two adorable critters got into a brawl yesterday afternoon which almost never happens, except under one circumstance. There's something about one of the neighbor's dogs that they don't trust. So if we're outside and one of us humans get too close to that neighbor's fence, they get all worked up and it sometimes turns into them fighting with each other. They usually stop as soon as the human moves away from the fence. But yesterday, they didn't stop. I think I waited too long to move and they were too into their fight to stop. Sheeba (on the left) had Dizzy (on the right) on the ground and would not let go of her throat, so I got involved. I had my hands in Sheeba's mouth trying to pry her jaws open and eventually it worked. As soon as she let go, Dizzy came up very quickly and snapped. I KNOW she was trying to get Sheeba, but my hand was in the way. Owwww

I did get them apart and had to just stand there holding them until my husband could hobble over to help me. He had foot surgery in the morning so it took him a while. In the meantime, I had just noticed that my hand was bleeding. A lot. Husband held Sheeba while I went inside with Dizzy. As I'm washing my hand, I saw that she had bitten in just the right spot that her tooth punctured the big vein on the back of my hand. Ya know, the one that they use for IVs at the hospital.

Today the back of my hand and wrist are SO swollen. Bleeding has finally slowed to almost a stop, but not quite yet. And it huuurrrrts!!

Oh, and the dogs were totally fine. As bad as that fight was, they only have some very minor scratches. I had really imagined the worst when I saw Sheeba's mouth locked around Dizzy's throat. Maybe she just had a mouth full of collar and some skin? I don't know. But they're fine. The picture is from today too, so they're obviously friends again.

The only thing I've been thinking since then (other than about the pain) is how Dizzy is now going to have to live with knowing that she bit me. My poor doggy... I know she didn't mean it.

And....I probably won't try to break them up like that again. Learned my lesson!

Edit: Yes, this is purely a case of human stupidity and a textbook example of what not to do. My injury is 100% my fault.

 

[The Snark]

Extreme pain and swelling sounds like infection. Keep a very close eye on it, get it checked at the ER or squeeze it VERY HARD (screaming permitted) and see in any pus comes out.

 

[Julia]

It only happened 24 hours ago and it started swelling right away. I've broken blood vessels in my hand before (usually on the other side though, the heel of my hand) but without breaking skin and it always swells up and hurts like a mother. Did that a couple weeks ago, in fact. Turns out I can't roller skate as well as I did 20 years ago.

I will be keeping an eye on it for sure. And I'm hoping like crazy it will heal up without incident. I'm actually worried about seeking medical attention because it's a dog bite. People hear dog bite and freak out. Nevermind that it was my dog, fully vaccinated, and my fault. I am so disappointed in myself for allowing this to happen... At the moment, my husband has the bag of frozen corn on his foot, per the doctor's post-surgery icing instructions, and I have the bag of frozen peas on my wrist. Veggies are awesome.

In addition, I'm a weenie with no pain tolerance. Extreme pain would probably be overdramatic for most people.

 

[cold blood]

Sorry to hear about that, breaking up a fight always comes with risks, I have broken up enough that I have developed a good technique to minimize risk (I am around LOTS of dogs and have been for 20 years, the 20 before that I just had family dogs). I can picture exactly how it happened, sounds like a frustration overload. Its crazy to see dogs that get along do that, especially when the reason is coming from elsewhere. Dizzy looks like a bully breed, they are amazingly tough, its amazing what they can take even with short coats. She's got a great smile by the way. . The neighbor's dog tries to drag my boxer around by the throat all the time. Despite it looking very rough, even painful, the boxer doesn't even react because she's comfortable with it, just an example of how much force it takes to actually cause real damage. Dizzy also appears to be pretty young, and I bet she's high energy as I can see great muscle structure under your hand. Do they get out with other dogs regularly? Is the other dog's attitude setting them, off or is it just the sight of the dog? Sometimes there's just dogs who's personalities clash, ya know. Do you know the neighbor? How is the neighbor's dog reacting? Sorry for all the questions, I just have a love of dog psychology and training.

Anyway, I will tell you how I would break up that fight. It takes a quick assessment and each situation is different depending on the dogs, it also takes quick reaction. Faster and more authoritative you act, the quicker it stops...generally immediately. You first need to determine which dog is the primary one to stop, there is, more often than not, one that is either bigger, stronger, has more attitude and/or gains an upper hand. In your case it was Sheeba. What I do is to quickly, and in almost a single motion, I grab (Sheeba for this example) by the nape firmly and quickly tackle the dog (in a controlled fairly soft, but firm manner, not like a linebacker hitting a qb or anything), putting my body across the dog, subduing it with my body size/weight (I am 5'10" 160lb, so not a giant human) and at the same time rolling slightly away from the other dog and keeping my hands in on Sheeba, always controlling Sheeba's head by the nape all the way to the ground. This both separates the dogs and moves the head away from the confrontation by putting your body between them (which usually eases the tension enough for the other dog to just quit), as well as not putting your face or extremeties in the way of being bitten by the other dog. Now if the dog's gonna take a nip back, its getting your backside, minimizing damage. I actually have yet to have the other dog (either, actually) react negatively to this, not that it couldn't, it just hasn't and seems to have a consistently positive effect. You do need to react like you really mean it and always stay in control. Keep the dog in that position until it calms. I don't ever suggest prying a dogs mouth open in a fight, there are much safer ways to accomplish this, but I know you know that.

The reason Dizzy continued was likely because she still felt in enough of a defensive position that she didn't feel good enough about ending it, as she was not in the best position and had likely become very defensive. This technique excels in the winter when you have jackets or at least sleeves and heavier clothing as it gives a better sense of protection if you have never tried, but it does minimize the bite risk just by position and taking away things of yours (hands/fingers, face) to be potentially grabbed, even in summer.

Good luck with the hand, that's a bad vein to have rupture, if it kept bleeding that long a doc may want to look at it. If it keeps bleeding after the surface stops you could end up with a lot of blood pooling, so be careful. Its likely gonna be one heck of a bruise. Don't worry about the dogs from the hospital perspective, just tell them you were playing and it repositioned on the rope or something creative if you are that worried, its not worth staying home and tuffing it out if it gets infected, and most dog bites do, unfortunately. A friend just had a seemingly very minor bite in the same place and it ended up being quite a big deal, and her bite looked like just a plug. It really hurts to have that area of the hand bruised as well, I feel for ya!

 

[The Snark]

Speaking from the medics point of view, the ER, I don't understand the stygma of 'dog bite'. It's puncture wound and the associated potential of an infected deep tissue injury. But it sounds like you know the signs of what to watch for.
Don't go brow beating yourself unnecessarily. Breaking up dog fights and bites on ones hands are pretty much synonymous. I suppose soccer players would have a leg up on that above the rest of us. Pardon the pun.

Just curious. Do people have some concern about specifically reporting a dog bite at the ER? Like, is it thought the ER staff is obligated to notify animal control or some such?

 

[MatthewM1]

Actually in some areas they are. My gf's brother's lab gave him a good bite on the leg after getting scared by the 4 wheeler he was riding. It got infected and he went to urgent care. They immediately reported it to animal control. Turns out he already had one bite on his record from when he was with his previous owner. They were told if he gets one more strike he would be taken away and euthanized, no matter how or why the bite occurred.





Personally I would just come up with a story about trying to pet a stray and getting nailed.


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[Julia]

Matthew,

cold blood's suggestion of "repositioning the rope" would be best and I don't know why I didn't think of it. That has actually happened before, as Dizzy LOVES playing tug and she occasionally repositions and gets too close to our hands. Even still, you are correct in that some areas they are required to report bites. I don't know if that's the case here, but I don't want to chance it. I absolutely wouldn't go the route of telling them it was a stray because then I'd be subjected to rabies shots, which I hear are less than pleasant. Not to mention expensive. No need for all of that when I know for a fact that the biter is up to date on all shots.


Snark,

There's the answer to your question. It is a real worry here that animal control will put a mark on the dog's record no matter what the circumstances were. On the flip side, I do live somewhat out in the country. We are in a smallish neighborhood with only a couple of streets, houses spread apart, each lot is at least a half acre and I could probably count on one hand how many houses don't have dogs. Most have multiple dogs. Although I don't know for sure, it might be a safe bet that the authorities wouldn't worry about us out here (especially if it's reported as a play-induced bite) as much as they'd worry if this happened in the city. But I don't want to chance it. My hand feels better today. Still swollen from my knuckles down to about 3" past my wrist but not nearly as bad. The pain is similar to a bad bruise rather than sharp and stabbing at the puncture site. Sharp and stabbing = really bad. I know that much.


cold blood,

First of all, that is not my hand in the picture. I'd like to think I don't have man-hands. But yes, Dizzy is most likely a mixed bully-breed. She's 2.5 years old, 45 lbs of solid dog, very strong when she wants to be and highly energetic. Sheeba's almost 2 years old, 85-90 lbs, more laid-back than Dizzy but obviously has a size advantage. Sheeba can put her paws on my shoulders when she jumps up and she can be powerful when she gets excited. Her daddy was a registered German Shepherd who was used as a stud dog. The story goes that he climbed/jumped a 6" privacy fence to get to a pretty little hound doggie who was walking down the street. Only the hound was not little. She was quite large, but the people who ended up taking her in have no idea what kind of hound she was. Sheeba's litter mates all came out looking mostly like GSDs but Sheeba was the only one with light coloring and floppy ears. She's just so nifty looking. But she's got the power of a GSD for sure.

Your other questions... Yes, they are around dogs and much as we can get them out. We walk around the neighborhood a lot, take them to PetSmart almost every Saturday sometimes just to walk around, they've been to doggy daycare, to our friends' houses who have dogs, etc. Never a problem. They have fantastic manners with other dogs. The trigger to making them nutzo is the combination of one of us being outside and near the back fence when that other dog is out and near the fence. It's unavoidable sometimes. Normally I can just walk back toward the house and our dogs calm down. But I couldn't, as I was in the middle of rolling up a 30' long piece of chicken wire at the time. The dogs' excitement got out of control until Sheeba knocked Dizzy down and then it was on. My usual technique of hip-checking Sheeba didn't work which is why I went to pry her jaws open.

I love the idea of my doing a takedown on her. That might have been possible. Hopefully I won't have to ever try it though! I like them both a lot better when they are their normal sweet cuddly selves, which they are now.

 

[The Snark]

From what I have been able to find out, there are state by state ordinances of ERs being required to report various things as dog bites. However, the patient is under no obligation to divulge information to the ER staff and (normally) for the ER staff to give any information to authorities about a patient requires the patient to sign a release form. It's a grey area between public safety and patient confidentiality.

The attitude at the ERs I've worked at and with is it is entirely up to the patient if they want to report the bite. We aren't in the business of law enforcement and we don't want people to be reluctant to seek medical help for fear the animal will be confiscated.

 

[pitbulllady]

From what I have been able to find out, there are state by state ordinances of ERs being required to report various things as dog bites. However, the patient is under no obligation to divulge information to the ER staff and (normally) for the ER staff to give any information to authorities about a patient requires the patient to sign a release form. It's a grey area between public safety and patient confidentiality.

The attitude at the ERs I've worked at and with is it is entirely up to the patient if they want to report the bite. We aren't in the business of law enforcement and we don't want people to be reluctant to seek medical help for fear the animal will be confiscated.

In most states you ARE required to report dog bites or other animal bites, as per that state's Rabies Control laws. There are specific protocols in place depending on whether the animal is vaccinated against Rabies or not, and they vary from state to state. Many states have now done away with the "one bite" allowance for dogs, and one incident is enough to get a dog classified as "vicious", meaning either the dog must be killed, or the owners will have to comply with a host of expensive steps in order to keep the dog. Also, there are the local laws regarding "vicious" or "dangerous" dogs, and those can vary within a given state. To make matters worse, "Dizzy' is a "pit bull type" dog, and in many places that means an automatic death sentence if a bite from her is reported, no matter the circumstances or severity of the bite. Not only that, but you can guarantee as soon as it is reported, every major news agency in North America will pick it up and report it as a "PIT BULL ATTACK".

pitbulllady

 

[cold blood]

Not to mention it can effect home owners insurance....One bite and you can be dropped. When I got my Doberman a while back the insurance agent made sure to point that out.

 

[The Snark]

In most states you ARE required to report dog bites or other animal bites, as per that state's Rabies Control laws.

This is a case of knowing your local laws and your obligations. My ER doc in California was pretty succinct:
"As you know, hospitals in California operate under title 22 of the code of regulations and we are not required to do anything not covered under that title. We have animal bite forms. The hospital does not require their employees to use them. I do not require the ER staff to use them as that is outside of my authority and they have better things to do. How this would all stack up I don't know. As NA and EMT you know damned well you go shooting your mouth off about a call to anyone not in the hierarchy ladder you will quickly be looking for a new job. Same applies to everyone else who is privy to confidential patient information."

So if states impose laws requiring bite reports that puts ER staff between a rock and a hard place, doesn't it? Doing further checking some states and some local counties or parishes have laws requiring reporting of an animal bite under the umbrella of communicable disease control and prevention. Who exactly is required to report the bite isn't all that clear. Enforcing not reporting a bite is even fuzzier. It's a health 'law' but it seems most criminal codes don't include it. Health laws ask for or require correction of an issue or incident but enforcement and penalties are rare.

 

[Julia]

From my city's web page:

"A. Required: It shall be the duty of every physician or other medical practitioner to report to the chief of police the names and addresses of persons treated for bites inflicted by animals, together with such information as is pertinent to rabies control. It shall be the duty of any person having the knowledge of an animal bite incident to notify the chief of police of the incident and to provide such information upon request of the director as is pertinent to rabies control.

B. Notification By Chief To Director: The chief of police shall notify the director of all animal bites. (1993 Code § 4-6)"

The fact that the physician's office automatically has my address if I go in to get treated was the part I was worried about. They could show up at my door and hound (no pun intended) me about it. I've decided that my official story would have been, "I was playing with one of the dogs in the neighborhood and it accidentally got me while repositioning a toy during a game of tug. No, I don't want to report it. Yes, I know the dog and the neighbor. Yes, they showed me their up-to-date rabies document." However, once again, showing up at my door... No patient-signed bite report form necessary.

And I just found another section, with cited code, stating that it is unlawful to interfere with an animal bite investigation and if interference happens, the person will be fined $1000 and possibly face jail time. I would imagine that interference includes not giving details about the bite.

 

[The Snark]

Thanks, Julia. As I suspected. That's a Health and Safety code, not the criminal code going by the word 'Duty'. A criminal code would be something along the lines of 'any person not complying...' and a penalty cited, 'pursuant to section...' blah blah. The age old argument of can you compel a doctor to violate medical ethics when medical ethics violations are normally determined by a peer review of doctors. Round and around.
But the individual doesn't have that protection and you are wise to CYA. However, being a Health and Safety code, penalties for perjury would be difficult to apply if indeed there is a clause regarding giving false information. But, it is always unlawful to interfere with an investigation, be it criminal, health and safety, building code violations etc. Although through different channels. The police have direct enforcement authority, other entities would normally be required to obtain a court order. That's what constitutional rights are all about.

I also wonder... Any person can expressly demand confidence of a medical provider and is well within their right to sue if that confidentiality is breached. Even if your hobby is breeding rabid dogs it seems a person could sue the medical facility to whale poop.