Mexican Red Knee final molt questions

[tapkoote]

I bought "him" as a B smithi female and paid female price at a pet shop, Aug 2016. He's molted for the last time about 10 days ago. Until today has just sat around the heat source (25watt bulb). This afternoon got active laying web. This evening he was in a web and strumming it. (movie) I'd guess calling a mate. Any one know for sure? If he's this active, I'd think his fangs are hard, I'm thinking I could try feeding.
The movie is close enough, can anyone tell me which red knee he is? As I understand it, you can't tell with out gene testing. I've seen the two species pictures and see no difference.
Hope I can get him to a breeder when the weather warms up.
Thanks tap
PS his black came out super double black this time, he's a "looker"

 

[Thekla]

Yes, this is 100 % a mature male making a sperm web and filling up his palpal bulbs. I would contact the seller if there's still a possibility and let him know.

As for feeding, I'd wait another week or so to be sure. But make sure he has plenty of water in his water dish (and remove the stone, it's not necessary and rather hinders your T to drink).
And remove the heat bulb! If it's not freezing cold in your flat you won't need it, and mature males are prone to dehydrate even faster because of their active lifestyle and their lack of interest in food and water. I think it's even said to keep mature males a bit cooler to prolong their lives.

He definitely is a very handsome boy.

 

[tapkoote]

Not sure what you mean by seller, she told me they don't guarantee because they don't have a molt to sex it by (more or less tough luck sucker). Seems to be a standard reply in your hobby, bought another one as a female guaranteed, off the web, it's a male, found out the fine print on the web site says "guaranteed to be inspected and thought to be the sex you bought". My impression of web/pet shop owners is low.
The rocks don't hinder him at all and the crickets don't drown once they've jumped there.
If he didn't like the lamp he wouldn't come out of the cave when I turn it on and go over there, to the heat source.
Thanks for the reply tap

 

[Thekla]

Not sure what you mean by seller, she told me they don't guarantee because they don't have a molt to sex it by (more or less tough luck sucker). Seems to be a standard reply in your hobby

Because charging a female price (as you said) when they aren't sure is shady and they should be called out on that IMO.

bought another one as a female guaranteed, off the web, it's a male, found out the fine print on the web site says "guaranteed to be inspected and thought to be the sex you bought". My impression of web/pet shop owners is low.

Well, that's what I call bad luck. If they stated they can't guarantee the sex, it's on you whether you buy the T. I would only buy from reputable dealers, not all online shops are bad and if they sell you a guaranteed female and it turns out male, they will compensate you in some way or another. Or you buy from users here on the boards.

The rocks don't hinder him at all and the crickets don't drown once they've jumped there.

It just seems as if the water level is quite low, and what he needs now the most is clean unobstructed water and the chance to easily submerge his mouthparts in order to drink properly.

If he didn't like the lamp he wouldn't come out of the cave when I turn it on and go over there, to the heat source.

Oh, I don't doubt he loves the heat. But with tarantulas, it's the same as with moths... they also are drawn to the light, not realising it'll kill them.

 

[cold blood]

remove the lamp, its a tarantula, not a reptile!

Temps in the 60s are fine...higher temps will just end life earlier if the lamp doesnt cook it first.

Your implication that he likes the heat and is drawn to it is exactly why heat sources like that are so dangerous. Tarantulas are drawn to heat like a moth to a flame, and like the moth drawn to their detriment. Although they both like it, neither the moth nor the tarantula need the heat or benefit from it in any way and both can be killed by it.

 

[aarachnid]

Temps in the 60s are fine...higher temps will just end life earlier if the lamp doesnt cook it first.

I hope it’s okay to hop on this because it’s about a male Brachypelma. I recently bought a sexed 2” M B emilia. I’m not super worried because they take awhile to mature out, but is keeping it away from heat sources (not near a window or a heat vent) and feeding him less frequently than I would a confirmed F the way to maximize my time with him? I don’t want to affect his quality of life.

 

[cold blood]

yes, but i wouldnt go restricting food too much.

 

[Chroma Trigger]

The movie is close enough, can anyone tell me which red knee he is? As I understand it, you can't tell with out gene testing. I've seen the two species pictures and see no difference.

The difference between B. Smithi (ex. B. Annitha) and B. Hamorii? From what I have heard (so please take this with a grain of salt), the Chelicerae on B. Smithi tends to be an "unstained" black, while on B. Hamorii, they have streaks of orange on it. Also this video might contain some more information: How To Identify Brachypelma smithi vs hamorii

Also this link: B. Hamorii Or Smithi

That said, I also believe that hybridization have muddied everything quite a bit anyway. Please feel free to correct me on anything

 

[tapkoote]

Thank you Chroma
I do see the difference in the Chelicerae, his are all black. And his knees don't have any black at all.
It's smithi, or a hybrid with mostly B smithi traits.
Don't fret over that light bulb too much, it's only 25W, puts out very little heat.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

The difference between B. Smithi (ex. B. Annitha) and B. Hamorii? From what I have heard (so please take this with a grain of salt), the Chelicerae on B. Smithi tends to be an "unstained" black, while on B. Hamorii, they have streaks of orange on it.

The info on the photo comments is outdated, apparently there are two variants of each species and one of the hamorii variants doesn't have the cheliceral banding, if it has cheliceral banding then it is definitely hamorii but no banding doesn't necessarily mean it's a smithi.

B. hamorii have off-white hairs lower down on the leg whereas smithi have orange hairs.



Also, look at the trochanter (where the leg joins to the carapace), in smithi both sides are separated by a dark/black strip whereas in hamorii it is all orange.

 

[Chroma Trigger]

Thanks for the information, @The Grym Reaper! Just when I thought it would be somewhat easy to tell the difference... I'd be interested to hear your opinion on hybridization in both species

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on hybridization in both species

It does happen (either accidentally or through people trying to play God) but it's most probably nowhere near as common as certain parties would have you believe. In the UK any pure bloodlines imported directly from Mexico now come with copies of the CITES paperwork and warnings to only breed if both specimens have the paperwork so hopefully that should sort things out somewhat.

 

[tapkoote]

Oh, I don't doubt he loves the heat. But with tarantulas, it's the same as with moths... they also are drawn to the light, not realising it'll kill them.

I keep thinking about the helpful advice. I'm not a collector it's not a hobby. I just like spiders, in the house or in the wood pile.
Thekla...

But I've watched this spider for 3 and a half years now. He's only drawn to the light if the sun comes out and lights/warms the house he's in. He's not like a moth, doesn't change position when I unplug the heat lamp (25 watt bulb in a shade) he does change position in the tank when th bulb is turned off and the wood stove is blazing. He's attracted to the heat not the light. If he were like a moth, he'd be attracted to the 150 watt light I film him with. Which he's not. Think about it, the 25 watt bulb is out side the glass.... glass is one of the worse conductors of heat. When he built the mating web he chose the farthest, from the heat source (least light ) he could find. If the heat/light was too much.... he'd be dead long ago.
These are spiders, related to the ones who live through freezing and rain in the wood pile all winter. Not only that I've fed worms from the garden .... god forbid... and they survived. And you folks can't seem to be able to tell me what species he is... bought as a B smithi female he was... some want to tell me he's hormori... don't think so, maybe hybrid

 

[Thekla]

Oh, I don't doubt he loves the heat. But with tarantulas, it's the same as with moths... they also are drawn to the light, not realising it'll kill them.

Okay, I'll have to rephrase that... as moths are drawn to light and will perish in it, tarantulas are drawn to heat and... you'll get my drift.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

And you folks can't seem to be able to tell me what species he is... bought as a B smithi

You have a smithi, I literally posted describing how to tell both species apart

 

[dangerforceidle]

The info on the photo comments is outdated, apparently there are two variants of each species and one of the hamorii variants doesn't have the cheliceral banding, if it has cheliceral banding then it is definitely hamorii but no banding doesn't necessarily mean it's a smithi.

B. hamorii have off-white hairs lower down on the leg whereas smithi have orange hairs.

View attachment 334202

Also, look at the trochanter (where the leg joins to the carapace), in smithi both sides are separated by a dark/black strip whereas in hamorii it is all orange.

View attachment 334201

Certainly not attacking, but out of curiousity where has this information come from?

Reading the paper describing the species, neither the trochanter colour nor the distal tibial colour are included as diagnostic characters to differentiate between B. hamorii and B. smithi. Just wondering if there was a subsequent publication, or if there was a member of some online community that reached out to Mendoza directly to get clarification, and published it elsewhere (not peer-reviewed).

 

[The Grym Reaper]

Certainly not attacking, but out of curiousity where has this information come from?

Reading the paper describing the species, neither the trochanter colour nor the distal tibial colour are included as diagnostic characters to differentiate between B. hamorii and B. smithi. Just wondering if there was a subsequent publication, or if there was a member of some online community that reached out to Mendoza directly to get clarification, and published it elsewhere (not peer-reviewed).

Found this after a quick skim through the 2017 paper.

"Although similar in colouration, B. smithi differs from B. hamorii by the absence of a cheliceral band. Additionally, the patella flame pattern is more colourful than in B. hamorii, with brighter orange setae. The lateral setae are yellowish along the length of the legs, while in B. hamorii the same are whitish, providing greater contrast with the darker areas."

A little further down on Brachypelma smithi

"Legs and palpi: femora bluish black, patellae with aproximal dorsomedian dark reddish orange flame-shaped area, distodorsal paramedian light yellowish pink with light orange setae laterally; tibiae proximal half bluish black with light orange setae, distal half pale yellowish pink and metatarsi bluish black with light orange setae and a pinkish white ring at the terminal end; tarsi bluish black (Fig. 19)."

I'm knackered and I can't really be arsed to sift through the whole paper and then dig through a ton of threads (as there have been a ton of discussions regarding how to differentiate the two species on here since the smithi/hamorii revision) right now, I may come back to it in the morning.

 

[dangerforceidle]

Found this after a quick skim through the 2017 paper.

"Although similar in colouration, B. smithi differs from B. hamorii by the absence of a cheliceral band. Additionally, the patella flame pattern is more colourful than in B. hamorii, with brighter orange setae. The lateral setae are yellowish along the length of the legs, while in B. hamorii the same are whitish, providing greater contrast with the darker areas."

A little further down on Brachypelma smithi

"Legs and palpi: femora bluish black, patellae with a proximal dorsomedian dark reddish orange flame-shaped area, distodorsal paramedian light yellowish pink with light orange setae laterally; tibiae proximal half bluish black with light orange setae, distal half pale yellowish pink and metatarsi bluish black with light orange setae and a pinkish white ring at the terminal end; tarsi bluish black (Fig. 19)."

I'm knackered and I can't really be arsed to sift through the whole paper and then dig through a ton of threads (as there have been a ton of discussions regarding how to differentiate the two species on here since the smithi/hamorii revision) right now, I may come back to it in the morning.

No need to dig through forum posts if all the discussion is here. I'm capable, and if it was a new thread posted after I joined, I've probably read it already. I have a problem with spending too much time here.

I had the paper open while typing up that response. Here is the leg description for male B. hamorii:

Legs and palpi: femora black, patellae with a proximal flame-shaped dorsomedian area deep orange, distodorsal paramedian area pale orange yellow, with brownish pink setae laterally; tibiae proximal half reddish black with brownish pink setae, distal half pale orange-yellow with brownish pink setae and metatarsi reddish black with brownish pink setae and a yellowish white ring at the terminal end; tarsi black.

So B. smithi has "pale yellowish pink" on the distal end of the tibia and B. hamorii has "pale orange-yellow." Those descriptions leave much to be desired with respect to clarity, and are not outlined as differentiating characteristics in the previous section. The description in the paper with respect to this character is also backwards compared to your images, as the tibial segment of B. smithi does not include the colour "orange" whereas B. hamorii does.

I feel colour, especially in photos, can be misleading as diagnostic characters.

The trochanter discussion comes from the threads posted by Jose (exoskeleton invertebrates), I'm guessing?

 

[The Grym Reaper]

The trochanter discussion comes from the threads posted by Jose (exoskeleton invertebrates), I'm guessing?

I think so, there are threads that basically go over how carapace colouration and cheliceral banding aren't reliable for an ID because the former varies too much between specimens of both species and the latter isn't present in all hamorii. Carapace colour was the first to be ruled out, and then cheliceral banding was ruled out later on, this left the setae on the legs (white = hamorii/orange = smithi) and the flame pattern on the patella (surrounded by black = hamorii/no black = smithi), the trochanter thing came later IIRC

I feel colour, especially in photos, can be misleading as diagnostic characters.

I've used freshly moulted specimens with the same lighting/settings/etc. in the first two photos to try to highlight the differences as best as possible. Obviously results may vary at different stages of moult cycles or with different equipment/lighting/settings.

Aside from taking DNA, or checking the shape of the spermathecae (assuming you have females and a good microscope/camera handy) or palpal bulbs (obviously this can only be checked in mature males and would probably be a ball-ache to do with a live specimen), it's pretty much all we've got.

 

[Andrea82]

I keep thinking about the helpful advice. I'm not a collector it's not a hobby. I just like spiders, in the house or in the wood pile.
Thekla...

But I've watched this spider for 3 and a half years now. He's only drawn to the light if the sun comes out and lights/warms the house he's in. He's not like a moth, doesn't change position when I unplug the heat lamp (25 watt bulb in a shade) he does change position in the tank when th bulb is turned off and the wood stove is blazing. He's attracted to the heat not the light. If he were like a moth, he'd be attracted to the 150 watt light I film him with. Which he's not. Think about it, the 25 watt bulb is out side the glass.... glass is one of the worse conductors of heat. When he built the mating web he chose the farthest, from the heat source (least light ) he could find. If the heat/light was too much.... he'd be dead long ago.
These are spiders, related to the ones who live through freezing and rain in the wood pile all winter. Not only that I've fed worms from the garden .... god forbid... and they survived. And you folks can't seem to be able to tell me what species he is... bought as a B smithi female he was... some want to tell me he's hormori... don't think so, maybe hybrid

This species does not spend winters in freezing temperatures in a pile of wood. They are from a desert and they make burrows that warm up enough during the day to get them through the night.
If the lightbulb isn't emitting heat, why mention it? Just for your information, Theraphosids do not like light, so this is the reason he moves away from it.
You don't seem to care much for how you treat your spider, which is worrying, to say the least. It may be a male, but a male is as valuable as a female for breeding these. No need to be callous about taking care of him.