MBALFOURI COMMUNAL

[margoo]

Hi guys! I was planning on getting an M.balfouri on communal set up. Can you guys pls give me a tips on how they won't eat each other or any other guides rather than that. Any tips will help thankyou!

 

[Arachnopets]

pls give me a tips on how they won't eat each other

By keeping them separate and not communal.

any other guides rather than that. Any tips will help

There are MANY threads on here about this very subject. You would benefit from doing a bit of research by searching through those very threads.

 

[jrh3]

As stated above. Do your own research and you can have a successful communal. Tons of threads here.

 

[Wolfram1]

Cannibalism in M. balfouri has been observed at every stage, from Prelarvae (eggs with legs) to adults.

For every communal that "works" there is another that doesn't.

That said if you absolutely must go the communal rout there is nothing that we can do to stop you. The chances for sucess will rise if you keep them well fed.

They are extremly reclusive so many people force them to build their webs out in the open by only providing anchor points and sandy soil, rather than providing them with proper hides and dirt to dig in. I don't aprove of that practice but it is how it is. Youtube is full of examples.

there are no veryfied reports of communals in the wild and they are found in the little pockets of greenery that exist on Socotra rather than the open desert. So dirt and a corkbark hide/hides with a starter burrow are still the best setup.

 

[viper69]

Hi guys! I was planning on getting an M.balfouri on communal set up. Can you guys pls give me a tips on how they won't eat each other or any other guides rather than that. Any tips will help thankyou!

SEARCH THE FORUM

 

[Mustafa67]

Hi guys! I was planning on getting an M.balfouri on communal set up. Can you guys pls give me a tips on how they won't eat each other or any other guides rather than that. Any tips will help thankyou!

Not a good idea

 

[Matt Man]

Okay so here's a note from us old timers. We have seen a ton of "Doing a communal" where we advise against it and they do it anyway. In the first several months the keeper is puffing their chest out and telling us how stupid we are and how rad their communal is, and sending lots of photos. Once they hit a certain size the postings tend to dry up, and very rarely do the posters ever get past "Well my 8 turned into 6" and they just ghost themselves and all their "You guys don't know squat" braggadocio. So here's my advice if you really want to try it. Clear out your garage or a room in your house and make a giant habitat, say 12 feet x 8 feet. Build some burrows in several locales, with plenty of space between them. Once the M. balfouri hit say 2" DLS release them into the enclosure and monitor their movements, Report back here. But the notion that you can keep half a dozen adult Ts in a 2' x 2' enclosure is absurd.

 

[margoo]

thankyou guys! very much appreciated

 

[Iamconstantlyhappy]

I tried this a long time ago. I started with 5. And yup, wound up with one big healthy girl.

 

[jrh3]

Okay so here's a note from us old timers. We have seen a ton of "Doing a communal" where we advise against it and they do it anyway. In the first several months the keeper is puffing their chest out and telling us how stupid we are and how rad their communal is, and sending lots of photos. Once they hit a certain size the postings tend to dry up, and very rarely do the posters ever get past "Well my 8 turned into 6" and they just ghost themselves and all their "You guys don't know squat" braggadocio. So here's my advice if you really want to try it. Clear out your garage or a room in your house and make a giant habitat, say 12 feet x 8 feet. Build some burrows in several locales, with plenty of space between them. Once the M. balfouri hit say 2" DLS release them into the enclosure and monitor their movements, Report back here. But the notion that you can keep half a dozen adult Ts in a 2' x 2' enclosure is absurd.

12’x8’ is pure ridiculous. They do great in close quarters. Majority of the negativity comes from people who have never kept balfouri as a communal. There is enough posts about interactions with each other to build a plausible case that they can thrive as a communal and even in some cases better than in solitude, in captivity. Socotra Island is not a popular place or easy place to access for research to prove they don't share burrows. I find it funny people seem to think research can only be done in their natural habitat when we don't even recreate that in captivity. They are on a bandwagon that ALL communal’s are bad and that is simply not the case. As well as the famous, no tarantula in the wild has been documented by “science” living communal. We do not keep any species as they would be in the wild. They are forced to thrive in a container and none live on coco fiber in the wild.

 

[Matt Man]

12’x8’ is pure ridiculous. They do great in close quarters. Majority of the negativity comes from people who have never kept balfouri as a communal. There is enough posts about interactions with each other to build a plausible case that they can thrive as a communal and even in some cases better than in solitude, in captivity. Socotra Island is not a popular place or easy place to access for research to prove they don't share burrows. I find it funny people seem to think research can only be done in their natural habitat when we don't even recreate that in captivity. They are on a bandwagon that ALL communal’s are bad and that is simply not the case. As well as the famous, no tarantula in the wild has been documented by “science” living communal. We do not keep any species as they would be in the wild. They are forced to thrive in a container and none live on coco fiber in the wild.

So post me photos/threads /blogs of a thriving ADULT communal that has lasted years.

Every notion of them living on top of each other laughs in the face of millions of years of evolution. Animals tend to need "feeding zones" which they typically defend violently.
Happens in grazing animals as well as predators. Chimpanzee / Baboon etc.... groups have defined areas they rarely cross, and when they do there is conflict. I suggest a 12'x 8' habitat because I am giving each T at least 2',
which I am wagering is a fairly safe zone. They do great in close quarters until they don't and that's the record here and every forum I have followed.
Second, it is counter to evolution via reproduction. Nearly every (if not every) communal is siblings, which means if that's the way it is in nature you'd have massive amounts of inbreeding which wouldn't fare well for the species.
Now add, you have several brothers of reproductive age in the same burrow, you will wind up with conflict there because each male is gonna want to be the one that passes along their genetics.

So you may think my notion is ridiculous, when it actuality I am trying to take nature more into account, then stuffing a bunch in a small area with no escape and having to supply ample amounts of feed (not natural) to help prevent
cannibalism.

Seriously, I would love to be proven wrong, and I would also love to have the room to set a BIG communal to try my notion. I am guessing I could have 2, maybe 3 lines co existing in a situation like that.
Until then I will make all my judgements based on that data I have been able to collect which to this day (from over the last 10 plus years) they have all failed

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Every notion of them living on top of each other laughs in the face of millions of years of evolution. Animals tend to need "feeding zones" which they typically defend violently.
Happens in grazing animals as well as predators. Chimpanzee / Baboon etc.... groups have defined areas they rarely cross, and when they do there is conflict. I suggest a 12'x 8' habitat because I am giving each T at least 2',
which I am wagering is a fairly safe zone. They do great in close quarters until they don't and that's the record here and every forum I have followed.
Second, it is counter to evolution via reproduction. Nearly every (if not every) communal is siblings, which means if that's the way it is in nature you'd have massive amounts of inbreeding which wouldn't fare well for the species.
Now add, you have several brothers of reproductive age in the same burrow, you will wind up with conflict there because each male is gonna want to be the one that passes along their genetics.

So you may think my notion is ridiculous, when it actuality I am trying to take nature more into account, then stuffing a bunch in a small area with no escape and having to supply ample amounts of feed (not natural) to help prevent
cannibalism.

Seriously, I would love to be proven wrong, and I would also love to have the room to set a BIG communal to try my notion. I am guessing I could have 2, maybe 3 lines co existing in a situation like that.
Until then I will make all my judgements based on that data I have been able to collect which to this day (from over the last 10 plus years) they have all failed

If you are giving a group of tarantulas the space equivalent to a decent sized room then you cross the line between communal into free-range. Your permitting of 2 feet of space, which I am assuming is 2 feet in any direction from the opening of a hide or burrow, is about the amount of space the populations of Aphonpelma hentzi I see in urban and suburban areas have. Here in Dallas County, Texas, Aphonopelma hentzi can be found in dense populations as a result of urban development. As habitat is destroyed the tarantulas live in closer proximity to each other with about 2 feet of space between burrows; sometimes less, sometimes more. In more rural areas of the county the burrows are so far apart it is difficult to determine any kind of grouping at all.

Since I see dense populations of Aphonopelma hentzi in urban environments and can clearly see why, I wouldn't be surprised that it would occur in other areas around the world where habitat destruction is prevalent or in areas prone to serious swings in climate. I also wouldn't be surprised if natural selection selected for more tolerant or even cooperative behavior in a species living in extreme habitats. However, even if it was observed in the wild there might be extraordinary circumstances that would cause cooperative behavior or tolerance that couldn't be replicated in captivity. Something I wish more people keeping tarantulas in captivity would understand is that just because it happens in the wild doesn't mean it is the norm for a species and should be replicated in captivity. Animals in nature are surviving and should not be replicated in captivity under the assumption it is best for their health and longitivtiy.

I do like the idea of testing communal behavior in Monocentropus balfouri by giving them space equivalent to the size of a room to live it in order to test if they will naturally group together and exhibit cooperative behavior, or if they disperse and setup their own territory. We would know super fast what their natural instincts are dictating and whether or not a so-called communal setup is ideal without a trip to Socotra Island.

 

[Wolfram1]

12’x8’ is pure ridiculous. They do great in close quarters. Majority of the negativity comes from people who have never kept balfouri as a communal. There is enough posts about interactions with each other to build a plausible case that they can thrive as a communal and even in some cases better than in solitude, in captivity. Socotra Island is not a popular place or easy place to access for research to prove they don't share burrows. I find it funny people seem to think research can only be done in their natural habitat when we don't even recreate that in captivity. They are on a bandwagon that ALL communal’s are bad and that is simply not the case. As well as the famous, no tarantula in the wild has been documented by “science” living communal. We do not keep any species as they would be in the wild. They are forced to thrive in a container and none live on coco fiber in the wild.

look, i know they have deveoped some unique characteristics, probably due to spending millions of years on an island, living through changing climate conditions & ultimately ending up in one of the harshest regions of earth. Over that time they did developed some unique social behaviors, even an aditional 3rd larval stage, likely neccessitated by many bottleneck-events during harsh decades, centuries or even millenia on Socotra during which they may have been forced to live in very small pockets of suitable habitat, but that does not mean they don't cannibalize each other on occasion. Perhaps this close proximity in a declining number of suitable crevices even allowed a few individuals to prey on the others when there wasn't much other food around. Tolerating them when the times are good, means there is food around when they are not. Has anyone ever thought about that.

for example, from ~100 eggs in a normal sack of the species only about ~30-50 make it to the nympth stage, mostly because they eat each other inside the eggsack! It gives the survivors better chances of survival in the harsh environment they are adapted to.

i am not even against other people keeping them as a communal, hoping to see some of the interactions between individuals and behaviors somewhat unique to them.
personally i just don't have any interest in trying it, experimenting with their lives, ...

the special status as a "communal" species has certainly helped M. balfouri be bred and sold more than many other species and that is a good thing.
they are more common now because of it.

that said, to deny the many occasions of cannibalism we have documented over the years and insistance on the existence of "natural communals" in the wild and how to prove/disproove it are laughable, as if that would change the fact that they do cannibalize each other. they just do.

What irks me the most isn't even the communals, it is the idea that they live in a desert. I really hate seeing them on sand with some twisted branches, makes me feel like we regressed by a few decades of keeping. And then they argue that they are recreating the natural habitat on Socotra. NO THEY ARE NOT!
If they did they would focus un the natural rocky river valleys, flanked by palm trees and brush, the shaded areas underneath trees or shrubs, possibly rocky areas shaded by high cliffs and not the open sand dunes of the desert.
at least give them a hide and a substrate they can actually dig in!

I just bring this up because i have seen too many dam videos about this. Luckily many people keep them properly as well.

to conclude, I just want new keepers to go into this with a realistic view of the situation instead of the mythical tales that are spread online.
they are special, watching them interact can be fascinating, but if they do decide to prey on each other there is not much you can do to prevent it. Some keepers get lucky for quite a while, others don't.

and thats ultimately what this question was about. tipps how to keep them from eating each other....

 

[Matt Man]

If you are giving a group of tarantulas the space equivalent to a decent sized room then you cross the line between communal into free-range. Your permitting of 2 feet of space, which I am assuming is 2 feet in any direction from the opening of a hide or burrow, is about the amount of space the populations of Aphonpelma hentzi I see in urban and suburban areas have. Here in Dallas County, Texas, Aphonopelma hentzi can be found in dense populations as a result of urban development. As habitat is destroyed the tarantulas live in closer proximity to each other with about 2 feet of space between burrows; sometimes less, sometimes more. In more rural areas of the county the burrows are so far apart it is difficult to determine any kind of grouping at all.

Since I see dense populations of Aphonopelma hentzi in urban environments and can clearly see why, I wouldn't be surprised that it would occur in other areas around the world where habitat destruction is prevalent or in areas prone to serious swings in climate. I also wouldn't be surprised if natural selection selected for more tolerant or even cooperative behavior in a species living in extreme habitats. However, even if it was observed in the wild there might be extraordinary circumstances that would cause cooperative behavior or tolerance that couldn't be replicated in captivity. Something I wish more people keeping tarantulas in captivity would understand is that just because it happens in the wild doesn't mean it is the norm for a species and should be replicated in captivity. Animals in nature are surviving and should not be replicated in captivity under the assumption it is best for their health and longitivtiy.

I do like the idea of testing communal behavior in Monocentropus balfouri by giving them space equivalent to the size of a room to live it in order to test if they will naturally group together and exhibit cooperative behavior, or if they disperse and setup their own territory. We would know super fast what their natural instincts are dictating and whether or not a so-called communal setup is ideal without a trip to Socotra Island.

Yes, that is partially what I based my spacing upon. Plus the notion of the animal size, feeding tactics and such, I figured 2' was a relative safe distance to establish a baseline.
And you get exactly what my 'test set up' is for. To actually see if space is provided, do they stay together or spread out, plus the size would give better chances for non sibling set ups.
Plenty of model train, slot car folks have huge set ups in their garages, I don't see why one couldn't just do a giant habitat. If I had space in my garage, I might give it a shot,

i am not even against other people keeping them as a communal, hoping to see some of the interactions between individuals and behaviors somewhat unique to them.
personally i just don't have any interest in trying it, experimenting with their lives, ...

the special status as a "communal" species has certainly helped M. balfouri be bred and sold more than many other species and that is a good thing.
they are more common now because of it.

to conclude, I just want new keepers to go into this with a realistic view of the situation instead of the mythical tales that are spread online.
they are special, watching them interact can be fascinating, but if they do decide to prey on each other there is not much you can do to prevent it. Some keepers get lucky for quite a while, others don't.

and thats ultimately what this question was about. tipps how to keep them from eating each other....

to me it is like rabbit sales at Easter, I don't find it ethical to sell stuff that is gonna be dead in a short period. I don't want to sell something that just gonna get killed, seems cruel to earn a buck sending a living creature to a certain doom.

yes, it has helped their popularity and it has helped dealers move them 5 at a time ($$$) When I am at shows I sell them s singles. People ask "They are communal, yes?" My reposes is typically "They are until they aren't"

and AGAIN, I would LOVE to be proven WRONG. Just hasn't happened yet

 

[bwhatch22]

until you throw a bunch of roaches into a communal set up and see 12+ little monsters come out of nowhere to feed you won't understand why we keep communals. it's possibly one of the coolest things I have ever seen in this hobby. a lot of you are spending a whole lot of time and words trying to prove you're right, when in fact none of you are really. anything can work, until it doesn't.....and in the end everything dies.

Hi guys! I was planning on getting an M.balfouri on communal set up. Can you guys pls give me a tips on how they won't eat each other or any other guides rather than that. Any tips will help thankyou!

hey man, I say give it a shot. I will guess it will probably fail in the long run, but so will humanity, and we keep trying that. ignore all those people on here who seem to be more concerned about being right than answering your question......

 

[Arachnophobphile]

What is with all these M. balfouri communal post popping up lately? I'm going to guess the source must be Facebook groups or YouTube arghhhh

 

[Matt Man]

What is with all these M. balfouri communal post popping up lately? I'm going to guess the source must be Facebook groups or YouTube arghhhh

personally it is because of the various social media sites and because dealers can turn a $50 sale into a $250 sale.

until you throw a bunch of roaches into a communal set up and see 12+ little monsters come out of nowhere to feed you won't understand why we keep communals. it's possibly one of the coolest things I have ever seen in this hobby. a lot of you are spending a whole lot of time and words trying to prove you're right, when in fact none of you are really. anything can work, until it doesn't.....and in the end everything dies.
hey man, I say give it a shot. I will guess it will probably fail in the long run, but so will humanity, and we keep trying that. ignore all those people on here who seem to be more concerned about being right than answering your question......

none of us are trying to prove we are right. Just do a search for communal here and go through all the threads. Everyone here is simply stating what they have seen repeatedly over the last decade.
We understand why people do it, we also understand why they shouldn't. Although I share your nihilism in regards to humanity, I personally don't like to move that into my husbandry. The attitude of
"Oh well they are gonna die anyway" is why we wind up with people doing death matches for profit

https://arachnoboards.com/search/1547881/?q=communal&o=date

 

[Arachnophobphile]

personally it is because of the various social media sites and because dealers can turn a $50 sale into a $250 sale.

Ahhh, yeah I remember seeing on a few dealer sites marketing the communal deals. I guess all to make a buck.

Seems lately a lot of new post popping up on communals by new keepers. It's sad because everyone else knows there is a high probability of tarantulas dying.

 

[Matt Man]

Ahhh, yeah I remember seeing on a few dealer sites marketing the communal deals. I guess all to make a buck.

Seems lately a lot of new post popping up on communals by new keepers. It's sad because everyone else knows there is a high probability of tarantulas dying.

Imagine you have 100 slings. Imagine how much easier it is to move them all if you are selling 10 at a time, or 5.....

because they are cheap overseas you see folks across the pond doing communals of P. mets. Hardly anyone in America would risk what are very expensive here to experiment

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Imagine you have 100 slings. Imagine how much easier it is to move them all if you are selling 10 at a time, or 5.....

I get it but still, I don't know, it still seems the dealer should have more ethics with the animals they sell. I know that applies to just about every other type of animal like dogs.

It just bothers me