Latrodectus breeding advice

[Glen Southern]

I wanted to ask some advice on breeding Latrodecti.

I have kept and bred spiders of many different species but I’d like to have a go at breeding Widows over the next year. I’ve used many different solutions to care for/incubate eggs and then raise slings. I developed a breeding jar taking advice and ideas from many different sources (tarantula breeders, herp folks, lots of arachnid literature etc). What I’d like to know is, how should I adapt this current set up to accommodate Widow egg sacs and the multitude of young that will follow?

This setup is basically a plastic, transparent jar (1 ltr-1.5 ltr). I placed two plastic containers into the base of this jar. The first of these is a tall plastic specimen bottle with a large holw cut into the lid. I place fine mesh over the jar and screw the lid on leaving the mesh to act as a hammock for the egg sac. I have some times suspended a sac over this jar using cotton (recently for a Argiope egg sac).
The second container is a cut down film pot. I place cotton wool inside this. I’m not totally sure if this water source is needed but I always add it anyway.
I run a two plastic air lines to the pots though holes drilled in the side of each. I thread the pipes up the side of the container and out through two drilled holes. Where ever the pipes have passed through a wall (small containers and the jar) I add some silicone sealer. Both contianers are held down with adhesive velcro so that when it comes to removing slings everything can be removed from the jar and cleaned.

These pipes allow me to add/remove water to the Egg sac jar and the cotton wool film pot as needed allowing me to control humidity over time without opening the jar. This helps when there are hundreds of slings trying to escape. To prevent escape down a water pipe I put a gauze mesh over the ends inside the jar and pot.

The rim of the jar has a ridge made of drafting tape built up to about 8mm. on the underside of this I smear Vaseline forming a barrier to stop slings climbing to the top of the jar. Some get past it and a few get stuck but I’ve always seen it as acceptable loss.

I make a curved wall from wire mesh. Different grades to suit the type of sling. This isn’t always needed but I find that slings send a lot of time on this wire rather than hanging onto the sides of the jar and it makes it easy to lift out a large amount of slings at a time. The one used in the picture was used recently for a very small british spider and it worked just fine. Bigger spiders=bigger mesh

The lid of the jar has a bottle top stuck on top of a drilled hole to allow me to drop micro crickets or pinkie maggots if needed. The top of the lid had been cut away and ultra fine mesh glued into place to allow air flow.

I add a thermometer and some times a hydrometer depending on where the jar is to be kept. I prefer to keep the slings/egg sacs in my make spider cupboard which is kept at 79 degrees and has some air movement via a small fan. WHen kept away from the cupboard I've used a 6x6inch heat mat.

The idea behind the jar is that once the sac is in and the lid is on I don’t have to open it again until the brood has culled itself down to a reasonable level. The pipes allow me to add/remove water at will. The Wire gives the spiders lots of surface area to move around and make little webs.

So, can I use this setup for Latrodectus? How can improve it for this genus? Any tips of breeding/raising the scas/young?

Thanks for the help I’ve already had from this forum.

 

[buthus]

I've use plastic tube like that for h2o.

Your setup is really great and it will work, but it is probably more extravagant then it needs to be.
Breeding itself should be done within the well established females enclosure.
I put sacs in 2 oz plastic "dixie" cups with plenty of small airholes. I put a small wad of paper towel in, but keep it from touching the sac. For hesperus, I do not add h2o to the paper wad until they are hatched. They are an arid species and do not require moisture while in the sac. I add a small amount of H2O after they hatch. I'm new to tropics and still green with temperate species. I have been adding a small amount of moisture for the sacs... but not alot. After hatching, I definately keep humidity up.
Slings molt once or twice while in the sac and they tend not to feed until their first molt out of the sac. That is when they start to feed on each other. If you separate the slings early, expect a lot of mortalities. This has varied greatly for me, but the weak must die either way ...usually they are food for the strong.
Feeding individual fresh hatched slings can be difficult. I actually end up hand feeding a large percentage of the brood that way. I basically wound or kill fruit flies or small ants and use a very small tweezers to place the meal into the web. Sometimes you can stimulate the sling to start wrapping the tweezer held prey...sometimes you can only leave it there and hope the sling takes it ...usually if the sling is health, it will do so. Getting them to feed a few times early on, really keeps the survival rate up. Some broods just seem to do better than others ...I tend to believe there are a couple of factors. First bloodline. If they are inbred, the mortality rate is huge. The other thing i have run across is when there is a small yield but from a large sac full of eggs. This just happened a few nights ago with a mactans hatching. Very small yield... hard to count, but probably less than 70. They came out HUGE..ripe like a tomato. I suspect that they fed on eggs that did not hatch...just a theory, mind you. But, with hesperus yields like this, I have had much fewer mortalities. I'll see if this holds true with this mactans brood.

The best way to get a small amount of healthy females, is to just let them feed on eachother until 4 or 5 are left. You will usually notice that there is one alpha female ...she will be the prize...usually. I have used this method mostly ...its easier and I have not really needed huge numbers of CB widows.
Only once did I get a male using this method. Somehow he survived the onslaught. If you want males...you will need to raise a bunch of slings!

As I type this, I have a sp.Laos sac hatching!! Pics are on the way.

 

[Glen Southern]

Thanks Buthus. Good information there for me. I have just seen your other recent hatch thread and looking at the last image it does indeed seem to be over kill to use this setup for Latros. Your system musy be successful so should I be in a postion to breed mine soon I think I'll go with a basic jar setup. I really can't afford to have Latros running around my studio though. Do you get any escapes from a jar setup like that?

 

[buthus]

Thanks Buthus. Good information there for me. I have just seen your other recent hatch thread and looking at the last image it does indeed seem to be over kill to use this setup for Latros. Your system musy be successful so should I be in a postion to breed mine soon I think I'll go with a basic jar setup. I really can't afford to have Latros running around my studio though. Do you get any escapes from a jar setup like that?

Just realize one thing... if i'm talking about anything besides hesperus...I'm making "educated" guesses based on what I've read, what I've learned with hesperus and very little on real experience. In otherwords I'm probably talking out of my arse. When it comes to these new hatchings and breed attempts of species other than hesps, time will tell if ANYTHING I say means jack squat. When it comes to hesperus, I have a good idea what to expect ...when to do things and what they will tolerate. Yet, I run into major exceptions. For example... I have a hatching from a hesp I collected in Arizona. I thought I successfully mated her with a male from my area. I saw the foreplay and the dance, but never witnessed the actual event. Had more important things to do. She gave me three sacs. The first, I let nature take its place to get one finale alpha female. Got her...she looks nice...though one of the strangest gray color subadults I have ever seen. Second sac just hatched a week ago. Good size brood...probably a couple hundred. Those slings have been dropping like ...well...flys. From what was left after they started feeding on eachother, I seperated about 50 or so and let about 20 go into my yard (new genes for the pool.. ). They started dying one after another. I gave them more H2O, some drank and actually were able to feed on fruit flys and/or small ants. Still more died. Infact I could watch them die off while sitting here working on the computer. I started hand feeding like I mentioned above. Most were good with this, but even after that about 50% of the ones that fed dropped. Im down to 13... and Im sure it will be 10 or less later today if this keeps up. Why? I have no clue. Could it be that the female was gravid already when i collected her? Maybe my mating attempt was actually a no go and the real father was her bro. :? Inbreeding that runs deep will make for weak slings...at least that is what I understand...one of the basics when it comes to genetics.
Her third sac hatched yesterday. I'm not sure what I am going to do with those. Probably let em go at each other until there is one ...maybe two or three. Hesps are so easy for me to find, so most of my breeding of them is just for curiosity ...though I do take more pride in the ones that I selectively bred. Though, I have been losing track of which is which and who is where. Just starting to make better documentation using a crude ID system.
My room is under remodeling chaos and everything is a big unorganized mess. I have a drawer full of hesps...mostly WC sub-adults and my desk looks like this...

Its getting cold at night and Im using a light to keep the slings/sacs around 78-80 degrees F. Not the greatest method, but its getting the job done.

Do you get any escapes from a jar setup like that?

Had some jumpers get out, but that was the fault of my alterations of the foam cup tops. Lost some mactans during transfer not to long ago... but i found a few making their webs around my keyboard. But, if your more careful then that, using the plastic "dixie" cups with the covers that are made for them, you shouldnt have any escapees. Use a large plastic food storage "tupperware" for tranfers and for any time you need to open a brood of slings. Get a few artist brushes ...I like fan brushes. Use good lighting and pay attention to single slings "ballooning" abilties. You can swipe up a group of slings with a fan brush and drop em down into a new cup, but when you pull away, one or two can still be hanging on with 6 inches of web. They swing around and get on you or drop somewhere you dont see them and you wont be the wiser. I always wear short sleeve shirts when working with slings ...you can feel them if they crawl up your arm.


I have been brain storming a "natural selection" sling raising enclosure. :? I think I may have a decent plan... hopefully one of these days I'll have some spare time to make one and try it out.

 

[buthus]

Making sure new slings, (especially ones that have been separated) get their first few meals is essential to a good survival rate. Ive had slings die while trying to snag their prey or they just dont try at all. What I have been doing is using a very fine tweezers to introduce the meal to the sling. Doing so for tons of slings is time consuming ...even when not hand feeding.
For the first few meals I give them a mix of small red/brown ants and fruit flys. If I have small enough pinheads, I'll go with those over flys. The problem is dealing with the lively food! So, the trick I have come up with is to gather the amount of feeders i need into a 4 oz plastics dixie and place it into the freezer for around 30 seconds. This has worked best with ants for me because i can just walk out the door and go to the nearest ant highway, brush a mass of them into the dixie, cap it and cool the buggers off. Some recover almost fully, so i put the dixie into a plasic food storage container, so they can crawl out, but have no place to go. Most of the ants will be wiggling, but easy to pick out with the tweezers. The slings will usually even take the dead ones as long as you simulate a little movement.

Heres a couple pics of some slings feeding on ants.

mactans sling...

hesperus...

variolus sling feeding on fruit fly...

 

[RodG]

Great Stuff Glen and Buthus!!! This is what forums are all about and why this one is my favorite

 

[Glen Southern]

Excellent advice. Latrodectus are new to me so it's all good. I've been like a sponge for a month now. I have very young L.pallidus and slightly older L.mendovi and they have been taking pin head crickets by the dozen. I have just aquired a Steotoda paykulliana female to go with a male I've had for months. If I get any slings from these I'll use the info in this thread as I'm sure their slings will be even smaller.

Nice shots of your room Buthus. I love nosying at other folks spider-space.

 

[Mechanical-Mind]

I think Buthus has laid it down very nicely. One thing I wanted to add, though, is that Lobster Roach (Nauphoeta cinerea) nymphs have worked extremely well for sling food as well. Most hobbyists have probably figured this out already -for almost all inverts, but I sort of like to reiterate that roach colonies are a god-send in our hobby, as much as possible... so, yes, if you're not cultivating roaches - get to it. Having said that, I pretty much always manipulate lobsters with pointed tweezers, making it easy to grab individuals. Before I place the prey directly on the sling's web (much like Buthus previously stated), I proceed to squash the roach's head. The incapacitated roach will still twitch, which I find attracts the slightly older theridiids more readily; however, I've noticed that if the prey doesn't adhere well enough to the web and wiggles free, the younger slings almost never leave their webs, which are higher in the deli cups, to venture down and subdue the prekilled item. So, I make a point to set aside all the containers which have been fed on the corner of my table, before setting them back in their respective places on my shelf. Those which take to eating immediately are placed back on and those that don't are monitored until they do. Sort of anal, but it works. If one day has gone by and they haven't molted or eaten, there is almost always an issue with prey placement. Once another prey item is placed more 'precisely' on the web, they will go to work on it; this happens nearly every time without fail.

Lastly, I would like to reiterate that again, as buthus stated, the first few meals are paramount. Also, the availability of water, perhaps more so for humidity than actual consumption is key. A brief example I'll share is that, not long ago I had a sac of bishopi hatch out. probably 90-80 slings in this particular sac, which I diligently separated into their individual deli cups with only 2 pieces of criss-crossed cypress bark for web anchoring. I waited one day until they had put down enough silk for me to place their prey, and literally every spider ate. However, within the first week I lost between 15 and 20 slings from what I believe was simply dessication. They're just so fantastically small, sufficient moisture is required in those early instars. So, still having 60-70 slings, I gave the next sac the female dropped to a good friend of mine from the boards, who religiously places a small, moist ball of paper towel in all his sling's enclosures. To this date he has lost zero slings from this sac. Likewise, since I adopted this practice I too have lost no more slings. I have taken it one step further and continue to rehydrate the paper-towel ball every time I introduce prey. This is most easily done with a syringe. Anyway, I suppose the moral of the story is to give this method a shot -at least with tropical and sub-tropical species. I think you'll like it.

Hope some of this helps.

Best regards,
-Matt

 

[buthus]

Mechanical-Mind, I think I will take your advice and get some lobster roaches. I assume they are fast breeders? Couple questions (probably answered already many times in other threads... ) ...what kind of space do I need for a colony? And how warm do they need to be kept?

 

[Mechanical-Mind]

Hey Buthus,

I'm told that, relatively speaking, they'll quickly out grow a ten gallon enclosure. However, I have a surplus of these and once the colony gets too large, I will do one of three things:

A.) Just frag it, and in a month or two, I'll have another group to work with.

B.) Feed it off heavily to the collection and let everyone fatten up a bit.

C.) Add more climbing material. By increasing the surface area, the more roaches can be kept in a single enclosure. So long as plenty of food and water is available, no wing biting or cannabalism will occur. Moreover, this is a species that seems to enjoy huddling together, as you'll see.

To summarize though, generally speaking, the bigger the better. Just remember that whatever you put them in, you're going to have to clean it out and transfer them somewhere at some point.


They're extremely prolific for a live bearing species, and as a tribute to their hardiness, will breed readily at surprisingly low temps. I would think 80-90 F is optimal, but room temperature will do. Obviously, the warmer they're kept, the more they'll eat, drink, deficate, and reproduce. The inverse is true for cooler temps. That said, if you're using vaseline as a climbing barrier, don't put any supplementary heat source too close to the jelly, otherwise it will slide down the glass in sheets and defeat it's own purpose.

Best regards,
-Matt

 

[buthus]

Hey Buthus,

I'm told that, relatively speaking, they'll quickly out grow a ten gallon enclosure. However, I have a surplus of these and once the colony gets too large, I will do one of three things:

A.) Just frag it, and in a month or two, I'll have another group to work with.

B.) Feed it off heavily to the collection and let everyone fatten up a bit.

C.) Add more climbing material. By increasing the surface area, the more roaches can be kept in a single enclosure. So long as plenty of food and water is available, no wing biting or cannabalism will occur. Moreover, this is a species that seems to enjoy huddling together, as you'll see.

To summarize though, generally speaking, the bigger the better. Just remember that whatever you put them in, you're going to have to clean it out and transfer them somewhere at some point.


They're extremely prolific for a live bearing species, and as a tribute to their hardiness, will breed readily at surprisingly low temps. I would think 80-90 F is optimal, but room temperature will do. Obviously, the warmer they're kept, the more they'll eat, drink, deficate, and reproduce. The inverse is true for cooler temps. That said, if you're using vaseline as a climbing barrier, don't put any supplementary heat source too close to the jelly, otherwise it will slide down the glass in sheets and defeat it's own purpose.

Best regards,
-Matt

Thanks for the extremely useful info ...I have to figure out how to feed tons of slings fast ...or I will have to go back to just raising a few at a time.

 

[Glen Southern]

Just doing a little further reading and searching for info on breeding Latrodectus and Steatoda sp.. I've realised the the system I've used for bigger species just isn't going to be viable for these smaller species. What size tub or pot (width/height) would be best to house a Latrodectus sac? (I don't know what a Dixie cup is Buthus We don't appear to have them). I was sent a False Widow sac last night and I've set it up in a pot no bigger that 50mmx80mmm and the same for a S. Bipuncta sac. I've seen a few images of widow slings in tubs but I can't get my head around the scale.

 

[buthus]

Just doing a little further reading and searching for info on breeding Latrodectus and Steatoda sp.. I've realised the the system I've used for bigger species just isn't going to be viable for these smaller species. What size tub or pot (width/height) would be best to house a Latrodectus sac? (I don't know what a Dixie cup is Buthus We don't appear to have them). I was sent a False Widow sac last night and I've set it up in a pot no bigger that 50mmx80mmm and the same for a S. Bipuncta sac. I've seen a few images of widow slings in tubs but I can't get my head around the scale.

I buy .75, 2 and 4 oz plastic cups. Dixie is just a well known brand name over here. The .75oz are perfect for slings...though I wouldnt mind .5oz which I have seen, but cant seem to find anymore. I like using the 2oz cups for sacs. There is plenty of room for hatching. I use the 4oz for adult storage.
The .75oz cups are about 4cm wide (top) and 2.5cm high. The 2oz are about 6cm x 3cm.
I buy them as packs of 100 or 200 cups and 100 lids. The lids snap on nice and tight. With a good needle, you can vent 3 or 4 at a time ...to save some time.
Im sort of a recycler, so I aways keep plastic and sterofoam cups that come with take-out food ...sauces, soups, etc. As long as they clean up and have a good lid.

 

[buthus]

I have to find a better method or substance to keep moisture within sling cups. I have been using paper towel wads or padding, but the water is gone in a few days. I need something like a piece of sponge or something else that will retain the H2O longer.
Any suggestions?

 

[Insecto]

I did something like Glen too for latrodectus'es or steatoda's

http://public.fotki.com/Isnecto/veisykla/imgp2055.html

 

[lilhildy]

Buthus... Concerning H2O supply, I personaly have been using one large water crystal for H20 supply for both scorplings and slings with great success in small 1-2oz deli cups. When the one in the deli dries out i go through and simply replace them. You can buy the cystals bulk at places like wal-mart in the plant section... its an endless supply for about $2.50. A spoonful of dry crystals when added to water makes a ton!! With this method I usually only have to replace them every 7-10days. Papertowel seems to evaporate off the water too fast where water crystals tend to maintain an air humidity of around 70-75%. They actually make cigar humidifiers with these crystals now because they last a while, rechargable by adding water to them and almost perfectly maintain a humidity of 75% in a low airflow environment. If placed in a small bottle cap with water they last weeks and you can just add a drop or two of water and you are good to go without changing anything. Might be common knowledge to some but thought I would share.

 

[buthus]

Buthus... Concerning H2O supply, I personaly have been using one large water crystal for H20 supply for both scorplings and slings with great success in small 1-2oz deli cups. When the one in the deli dries out i go through and simply replace them. You can buy the cystals bulk at places like wal-mart in the plant section... its an endless supply for about $2.50. A spoonful of dry crystals when added to water makes a ton!! With this method I usually only have to replace them every 7-10days. Papertowel seems to evaporate off the water too fast where water crystals tend to maintain an air humidity of around 70-75%. They actually make cigar humidifiers with these crystals now because they last a while, rechargable by adding water to them and almost perfectly maintain a humidity of 75% in a low airflow environment. If placed in a small bottle cap with water they last weeks and you can just add a drop or two of water and you are good to go without changing anything. Might be common knowledge to some but thought I would share.

Yea... I've been wondering if these were the way to go. I think i will have to give them a try. I have been keeping the humidity high for all my latro slings this time around and it seems to be decreasing deaths during the first few molts. Especially with temperate and tropical species, but with these I have been adding so much moisture that it is causing mold from kills laying on the paper towel padding i have been using. Im sure mold will happen anyway, but I suspect that the paper is acting as a vehicle for the mold. Mold does not seem to affect the slings, but then again who knows?
The only thing that I am not sure regarding the water crytals, is how they maintain humidity if they are so absorbant? From what I understand, there needs to be some sort of material to wick the water away from the crystals such as dry soil. But you claim that they do maintain 75% humidity in low airflow enviroment ...so I will have to try and see. At 75%, heat from the outside should cause some condensation inside ...at least that is what i am guessing. Does anyone make a small and inexpensive meter? That would be nice.