Isopods and Mushrooms

[ArchMage]

Hello AB!

**This is going to be long winded so my apologies ahead of time. You can skip the introduction and get right to the topic questions in the separated part below.**

Long time on/off lurker here (nearly 10 years) looking for some opinions and expert takes on two semi-controversial topics. Normally I can find straight forward answers and have been satisfied with the abundance of information available (hence why I’ve been lurking rather than participating) but I’m finding a spectrum of opinions on two particular topics that have had mixed takes spanning the entire lifetime of this forum so I was hoping to narrow down some with more recent takes. Those topics are:

Mushrooms
Isopods

I’ve picked up the hobby of bio-active vivariums the past year and have a few established tanks so far with success. This ties into why I’m here, I’ve had T’s on and off throughout my life but haven’t had one for a few years now due to focusing on my mammal family members. Well, long story short, I had a few small tanks available and decided to add an 8-legged member to the family again (C. versicolor sling). I have two empty small cages for (hopefully) her growing periods of sling and juvi but am planning for her third and final home for adulthood.

This leads me into the topic and while I’m here as I like to plan out things in advance and deciding what her adult tank will end up being. I have an established 20H that I converted into a tropical vertical tank with some ferns and pillow moss. I think it would work perfect for her with the right cork bark round (which I have a couple on hand to chose from) but might end up adding more ventilation holes (using a ‘I Heart Geckos’ vertical conversion door) for better airflow if I end up stocking it with the T.

————————-

The issue I have is I see mixed opinions on both isopods and mushrooms on this board (from threads in 2009 to ones in 2020). The species I am specifically dealing with are:


Isopods - Porcellionides pruinosus
Mushrooms - Lactarius indigo, Chanterelle Mycelium

So I use tropical springtails and these isopods in each of my setups for a CUC, with decent success. I’ve seen topics saying dwarf isopods are ok but larger ones had mixed opinions. I keep the isopods well fed (with leaf litter and bits of Repashy) and since they are a ground species rather than borrowing, I monitor their population and remove some if it gets too large for my liking. I don’t think they will bother the T since I never find them anywhere outside of the botanicals and cork pieces on the ground (outside of a random rouge here and there). Does anyone have any experience (positive or negative) with these isopods and arboreal Ts?
—-
The second mixed topic is mushrooms. While I think this Vivarium would work great for my T as an adult, I do have a second concern. A few weeks ago before getting my T, I decided to use this tank as an experiment for growing mushrooms. Again long story short, I have a friend that runs a non-poisonous mushroom (both edible and non-edible) farm as a hobby and got some spores to give it a try. I’ve seeded some pieces of cork bark in this tank which lay at the very bottom. I’ve seen topics which done people showing their Ts living with fungus and mushroom fruit while others saying to sterilize the tank to make sure spores don’t enter the T’s lungs. I’d like to add the same person has some of Lactarius indigo inside a dart frog vivarium with no harm to the frogs but seeing as those are amphibians, I can’t feel safe when applying the experience to tarantulas. Also not worried about feeders eating the mushrooms since I directly drop the food into the webbing and remove if it’s not eaten within a half hour.

As far as I know, only parasitic fungus or tanks completely infested with an unhealthy T (as highlighted here: https://arachnoboards.com/threads/all-you-need-to-know-about-mold.313315/ ) are of concern but just like the isopods, I’d like to get opinions on this. The tank tends to stay around 70-75 degrees and 65-80% humidity depending on watering/misting times at the top of the tank where the T would be. It’s a little cooler and more humid (due to plants and spored cork, not substrate) at the bottom of the tank.

Sorry again for the long winded post but wanted to give as many details as possible so I can get some good information. It goes without saying that if the tank isn’t safe for the T due to either the isopods or fungus, I will build a different tank for her adulthood since I have plenty of time before having to worry about re-homing. Overall I’m seeing both can be ok in most posts across forums but since I have the specific species/strains, I’d figured it didn’t hurt to get more opinions. Thank you for your time and any info you can provide!

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

First I will give a short answer which will be I don't know. I know nothing about fungi, springtails, or isopods, and I have never used one or a combination with my tarantulas of either arboreal or boreal species. That being said, this type of question comes up a lot but with different variables. You have an individual who has experience in one type of terrarium hobby, new to tarantulas, and they want to combine the two and seek the input of others on if it will work. Personally, I don't know how what you want to do would work given that arboreal tarantulas generally require high levels of ventilation which would make keeping the moisture requirements for your mushrooms and isopods very difficult.

When it comes to tarantulas, the best method is to Keep It Simple. If you don't have a mastery of tarantula husbandry, then it is better to keep the caging as simple as possible so you can focus on the tarantula's needs instead of trying to balance its needs along with the needs of all of the other types of organisms kept with it. With few exceptions, there is no benefit to having a bioactive enclosure for tarantulas, nor is it needed.

My advice is to start with basic tarantula husbandry, get a feel for working with the tarantula itself and what works and what doesn't for its husbandry, then later combine all of your terrarium hobbies together to get your own answers. You are making things very complicated by trying to run before you walk, and later down the road, you may encounter problems that no one will be able to help you with. The reason you see so many mixed answers to your questions is probably because A) no one has tried it and is making a lot of assumptions based on limited experience B) people have tried it and had mixed results or C) a combination of the two.

Again, keep the tarantula husbandry simple and learn what works and what doesn't through trial and error. If you find the tarantula's needs to be compatible with mushrooms and isopods, or whatever else, then try combing them. But do so at the risk of your tarantula's health since your research already has not be all that conclusive. No apparent consensus on the matter leads to the conclusion you will not get good help if something does go wrong.

 

[Smotzer]

So AphonopelmaTx kinda addressed this very well already

I converted into a tropical vertical tank with some ferns and pillow moss. I think it would work perfect for her with the right cork bark round (which I have a couple on hand to chose from) but might end up adding more ventilation holes (using a ‘I Heart Geckos’ vertical conversion door) for better airflow if I end up stocking it with the T.

This just from the description it is going to be inappropriate for an Aviculariinae amd be way to humid, stagnant, and stuffy.

I can’t feel safe when applying the experience to tarantulas

Fungi are generally not harmful to tarantulas as fungi and the like yeast molds are very specialized organisms but the environment to produce those fungi is also not suitable for a Caribena versicolor. You are brand new to keeping them and you should be concerned about keeping it healthy and alive and which would be on dry substrate with thermal gradient ventilation up and out and cross vent, no misting and a water dish. This will keep it alive.

65-80% humidity depending on watering/misting times at the top of the tank where the T would be.

Terrible environment, should not be misting an Aviculariinae especially in an already high relative humidity environment. This is what led to Sudden Avic Death Syndrome (Sads)

If you don't have a mastery of tarantula husbandry, then it is better to keep the caging as simple as possible so you can focus on the tarantula's needs instead of trying to balance its needs along with the needs of all of the other types of organisms kept with it.

Exactly this!!

Also the isopods I would definitely not use in a tarantula enclosure. They need more moisture than a C. versicolor substrate should have to have it thrive.

just the other day I read about an isopods eating a freshly molted arachnid. Risk vs. reward....doesn’t line up for me

 

[l4nsky]

The mushrooms are a non issue. I'm not saying that because they're harmless. Im saying that because they probably still aren't living in your system and if they are, they certainly won't fruit and produce spores. Both species you've stated are mycorrhizal species that form symbiotic relationships with the roots of certain species of trees that I doubt you have growing in your terrarium.

The isopods on the other hand, very well might be. The species you've chosen is one of the larger species and if you're supplementing their diet to increase the population, then they very well might be a threat to a freshly molted tarantula. The only isopods I trust with tarantulas are Trichorhina tomentosa and only in small numbers. I don't supplement their diet, instead choosing to let the available nutrition from the detritus from the leaf litter and the tarantula's excrement/boluses naturally limit their population.

I'm in agreeance with what's been previously stated vis a vis getting the basics of tarantula care first before going bioactive, especially Aviculariinae. When you do, ideally you'll want to choose the plants to be in line with the tarantulas needs and go from there instead of setting up a bioactive terrarium and then deciding to put a tarantula in it. Honestly, the best terrarium plant for tarantulas is just simple pothos. I haven't kept any Caribena or Avicularia sp in a bioactive enclosure yet, but I have designs too. When I do, I'll use some pothos variants and Trichorhina tomentosa with a deep substrate. The deep substrate will allow me to keep the top layers dry to keep the ambient humidity in the enclosure lower while still retaining moisture in the deeper layers for the plant roots and the isopods which will burrow down to the moisture when they aren't feeding.

 

[RoachCoach]

This is going to be long winded

You think we are here for the "here spider, look this"? We want the details.

 

[RoachCoach]

So, there is a HUGE gap in what you mean for mushrooms with your T's. Mycelium is very good at propagating through a sterile nutritious medium. BUT, if you don't have sterile environment before the mycelium can fully colonize the substrate, then you are in for a world of hurt. Ask your buddy about Trich. It's cool if you have some competing mycelium in an enclosure. That can turn south in a day easily. Then you have hundreds of millions of unwanted spores in your entire house. Your mushroom buddy should have better tips than we do here on keeping invasive species out of your spot. Trich is floating everywhere, all the time. Only a flow hood and sterile procedures will keep you above 90%

 

[l4nsky]

So, there is a HUGE gap in what you mean for mushrooms with your T's. Mycelium is very good at propagating through a sterile nutritious medium. BUT, if you don't have sterile environment before the mycelium can fully colonize the substrate, then you are in for a world of hurt. Ask your buddy about Trich. It's cool if you have some competing mycelium in an enclosure. That can turn south in a day easily. Then you have hundreds of millions of unwanted spores in your entire house. Your mushroom buddy should have better tips than we do here on keeping invasive species out of your spot. Trich is floating everywhere, all the time. Only a flow hood and sterile procedures will keep you above 90%

This isn't an issue in a bioactive enclosure with a healthy and well established population of springtails and isopods. They'll keep any mold or fungus in check. Now, in fungiculture, you're absolutely right. I've had to throw out quite a few petris due to Trichoderma and Aspergillus contaminants.

 

[ArchMage]

Thank you everyone for the replies. Couldn't respond over the weekend due to my internet being out at home so had to wait until I was in town.

It seems the general consensus is the established vivarium wouldn't be appropriate due to moisture demands of the plants and overall ventilation (which was my third concern and why I mentioned drilling more holes in the first post but I'd have to due some prolonged testing to see if that would be enough. I have my doubts though). I'll go ahead and leave that tank as a testing environment and instead make a new bioactive tank from scratch with the tarantula's needs at the forefront. Just felt it didn't hurt to ask since I had so much time to plan (8+ months) and had the tank already established giving me time to do adjustments to see if it could work. I believe I can make a good Versicolor tank using a custom screen door and plants with lower moisture demands like bromeliads, pothos, and specific mosses. I also have a small culture of dwarf isopods that are too small for seeding ATM but given several months, they should be good to go (need to get them ID first since they were hitchhikers I found in my plant quarantine tank. Thank you for all the answers!

Funny enough, I have more experience raising tarantulas compared to the the other parts of the vivarium hobby. My first tarantula was a male C. Versicolor that lived 3ish years (really wish I would of bred the poor guy) and took care of my brother's Red Knee for 4ish years while he was away at college. Compared to raising plants for 4 years and bugs/vivariums less than 1. I'm going to try and mimic the tank I used for my first Versicolor but with a bioactive set up and will become my summer project.

@l4nsky That would actually make a lot of sense why I haven't seen any progress in the spores since they are in cork bark and not the appropriate wood. My friend sent me an ebook guide while saying, and I quote, "throw them in and see what happens" lol. I'll have to ask him next time I see him on what medium he used for the dart frog tank and try again in the experimental tank.

Thanks again everyone for all the advice, information, and suggestions. Don't worry, T health > everything else so I won't be using the tank. Just wanted to ask about hypotheticals since there is such a large time window before I have to worry about moving her into an adult enclosure. Gives me an excuse to make another vivarium so no complaints here. Cheers!

 

[l4nsky]

I'd personally stay away from the mosses. I'm by no means an expert, but I don't really know of any species that could thrive under the conditions you want to target for a C. versicolor. The bromeliads can work as long as you place them in net pots fixed into the background so you can water them independently of the entire substrate. Also, you'll want to avoid any mesh screening in a tarantula enclosure as their tarsal claws can become stuck and they might lose a leg. Here's my prototype enclosure that I went bioactive with for a 0.1 Poecilotheria regalis:
My Take on the 10g vert

 

[ArchMage]

Just wanted to give an update (hopefully this isn't considered necroing) after putting some thought and more research into it.

I decided to stick with basic tanks (aka non-bioactive) for my T's. In the end, it is a fine balance between keeping humidity levels right to keep both the T and springtails alive and personally I prefer to keep substrate drier with only a weekly misting on the substrate and very light daily misting on the webbing (for drinking outside of the water bowl and keeping daily RH at least above 40%). The springtails would die out since the substrate won't be wet enough for them unless the T species was a burrower needing a moist soil set up. Going to keep the two hobbies separate and maybe one day further down the line if I get an appropriate species with the right reqs, I'll give it a shot.

On my experiment tank, I am surprised to announce that the mushroom spores have taken root and I am seeing fungus pop up from both species. Not sure if they will end up fruiting but am excited to see that they didn't die out. The tank is going to remain unstocked outside of the isopods and springtails like originally intended. Also decided since I am sticking to basic tanks for T's, I decided to pick up a G. Pulchra to have a terrestrial species as a tank neighbor for the Versicolor. I lucked out with both of them as they are very docile and great eaters so far!

Probably going to go back to lurking for the time being. Maybe pop up in a thread every now and then lol. Thanks again everyone for information and suggestions, it's greatly appreciated. Hopefully some of this will be useful for anyone that stumbles across the thread in the future as have many past threads on these boards have been for me over the years. Cheers!