Interesting snake behavior.

[J.huff23]

I got a baby black rat snake a few days ago. I noticed that when he gets in his strike pose, he rattles the end of his tail. It seems like he is mimicking a rattle snake. I just thought that was awesome. He's a beautiful snake, but he's very defensive.

 

[pitbulllady]

I got a baby black rat snake a few days ago. I noticed that when he gets in his strike pose, he rattles the end of his tail. It seems like he is mimicking a rattle snake. I just thought that was awesome. He's a beautiful snake, but he's very defensive.

His behavior is typical for TX Rats(he's NOT a Black Rat, by the way), and indeed, most Colubrid snakes. Most people do not realize that many non-venomous species vibrate their tails as a warning, as do many venomous species which aren't Rattlesnakes. It's not a Rattler mimic, as snakes from other continents where there are no Rattlesnakes, and never have been Rattlesnakes, will also do this. It's more likely that the Rattlesnakes evolved a specialized noise-maker to accompany a natural defensive behavior that was already there, to warn large, noisy hoofed herd animals like bison and elk to back off. Many a harmless snake has been killed, though, because it shook its tail, and was mistaken for a Rattlesnake. In a substrate like dry leaves, even the tail of a harmless Rat or Corn snake can sound much like a rattle. That behavior has led to many a wives' tale about Rattlesnakes mating with harmless species to produce hybrids that look like the harmless parent but have the deadly venom of the Rattler. I have a huge "greenish" Rat(intergrade between a Black and a Yellow Rat)that was caught by a redneck who insisted it was a deadly "Water Rattler", a hybrid between a Cottonmouth and a Rattlesnake, because it shook its tail. He had to give me the snake AND forfeit a sum of money because he'd made a bet with me that he could find a real "Water Rattler" and bring it to me, alive, as proof they existed after I scoffed at his ludicrous claims, and I guess he realized he'd lost the bet when I casually reached in the bag containing the "deadly" snake and picked it up.
By the way, young snakes of most species tend to be more defensive than adults, though like I told you in my PM, TX Rats are notorious for their feisty dispositons, even captive-bred specimens. The "bitiest" snake I've ever had was a large female leucistic TX Rat. Most Rat Snakes, even freshly-caught wild ones, will not bite while being free-handled, but she didn't care. She'd latch onto you regardless. It's kinda cute when they're little and they act so tough, but once they get to be about six foot-plus, the cute sorta wears thin, lol!

pitbulllady

 

[J.huff23]

Thats awesome. By the way, I dont think I got your PM?

 

[Devil'sRival]

My leucy black rat does the same thing. He pulls back into an s with that tail going 90 to nothing and its pretty cool to see. Mine only gets defensive in his tank so I just use a small homeade snake hook (wire coat hanger wrapped in blue electrical tape) to get him out without too much of a fuss compared to just using my hand. Once he's out he tries to take off but gives up and just chills on my hand. At least they give us a warning they're gonna bite unlike other snakes I've dealt with. I think you're right about it being a rattlesnake mimick though and I bet it works well in the wild.

How's yours with eating? Mine gently takes f/t off tweezers. I figured it'd strike hard and wrap up, maybe later.

Where's the pictures?

 

[J.huff23]

How's yours with eating? Mine gently takes f/t off tweezers. I figured it'd strike hard and wrap up, maybe later.

Where's the pictures?

I just got mine on friday, but he already ate a F/T pinkie. So he's a good eater so far.

Here is a thread with pictures of him. I thought he was a black rat, thanks for the correction PBL. I looked up some pictures of adult texas rats and they are definitly beautiful.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=186667

 

[Devil'sRival]

He's a good looking snake. I put up pics of my leucy the other day. Now we just have to wait for them to grow into big beautiful adults, hopefully without all the attitude.

Mine is sucking down 3 small pinkies every other week and still looking for more. I'm gonna switch him to fuzzies after I run out of pinkies and see how he likes that.

Yea PBL is always helpful, I like reading her post. Thanks PBL for helping me decide between the black rat and Texas rat. Thanks again J.Huff for the recommendation for my P. murinus.

 

[pitbulllady]

Thats awesome. By the way, I dont think I got your PM?

Sorry, my internet is acting up, big-time. It looked as if it went through, but apparently it didn't. AB is one of the few sites I can open and post on right now, and it's been this way for two weeks now. My lousy ISP, AT&T, has been either unwilling or unable to do anything about it. After putting us and all of their customers in this area(it's not just me that's lost most internet functions)through all sorts of headaches, blaming our modems and telling us we had to buy news ones, THEN claiming that all of our computers(including my neighbor's Mac, lol)were infected with viruses, and refusing to send a tech crew to the area, they finally put us in touch with an out-sourced tech group who charged my father $200.00 to come out and prove it was NOT our computers or equipment, but AT&T's. THAT person had to set up for an AT&T work crew to come out and find what was wrong with their lines, since they no longer will send out work crews for internet issues upon the request of customers, only via their "ConnecTech" out-sourced people, whom customers have to pay from their own pockets. They are now saying that the problem is widespread and involves a routing node in their Atlanta station and that they are "working on it", but their tech/work crews keep banker's hours, apparently, and no progress has been made. I can't even access my email except via my cell phone.

ANYHOO, I did send you a PM about the snake, when you inquired about my thoughts on WC vs. CB and what to expect from a TX Rat. Your little snakey has a lot of red on it already, so hopefully it will turn out to be one of the red or orange-phase TX Rats, which are stunningly gorgeous snakes, IMO prettier than the leucistics, even.

pitbulllady

 

[the toe cutter]

I have seen this behavior in many different No American colubrids such as pantherophis, spilotes, bogertrophis, racers, and even thamnophis species. It is believed by many that rattlesnakes adapted this behavior from colubrids and took it a step further by developing the rattle. Crotalus being much newer than its colubrid predecessors on the evolutionary spectrum. In fact most ALL serpents came originally from fossorial blindsnakes, as an interesting side note, until the rise of mammals! From blindsnakes to retics, evolution is pretty amazing eh?

 

[dtknow]

PBL: What do you think of tail shaking as an expression of excitement? I had previously fed a Honduran I had on frozen mice(had its share of live pinks and hoppers)...but recently it got to the size where she could take large hoppers/small adults. I was a bit squeamish about the thought of killing them(since someone was over at the time and probably would not think it is very mentally well to execute a mouse) so decided to supervise a live feeding. The moment the snake detected the smell and the motion it perked up and its tail began to shudder and shake as the snake tensed up and then shot forward to grab the mouse. Totally different reaction than I was getting with frozen, the snake would merely begin tracking(oftentimes having trouble locating the mouse) and approach and bite the mouse in a deliberate fashion(frequently without bothering to constrict even when I wriggled the mouse). I doubt tail shaking when approaching a mouse would in any way help the snake capture a meal in the wild, however.

Also, it seems snakes can quite accurately judge(from chemical or maybe tactile cues) the age and strength of their prey. Pinkies are swallowed live, moderately large prey it seems the snake would swallow the head and compress thus killing the mouse. And large prey are constricted.

 

[the toe cutter]

dtknow,
I have seen that same behavior with Spilotes pallatus and my leucy rats, but still feel that its simply a nervous response to different stimuli in their environment. My leucy rats have been fed F/T mice, rats, chicks and rabbits their whole lives, and their feeding response is normal for being raised on that type of food item. They see/smell it, grab the prey item, they don't strike at it or coil it, hold it for a moment then start to swallow it. Now I did feed one of my larger females a live jumbo rat one time and she immediately started rattling her tail and getting into her raised "S" curl and struck at it a few times until, I believe, her fear subsided and she realised that it was a live prey item and struck, coiled, killed and ate the rat. As far as being excited, that depends upon your definition of the word. If you mean excited in a joyful way, then I would have to say probably not. Joy and happiness are expressions that are not really compatible with a reptiles brain structure, since they are mainly ALL hind brain with the Jacobsons organ modification to the Olfactory bulb. That being said, I love these threads on animal behavior!

 

[Mina]

Some of my 7 week old baby corn snakes have rattled at their food. I've noticed it tends to mean they are excited, and on occasions even my adults do it and with them its more of a mood indicator.

 

[the toe cutter]

Excited in a nervous/defensive manner though, not in manner like the dog in the beggin strips comercial, ecstatic about eating. They are only reacting to whom or what, is opening their cage(tampering with their environment) or whatever is in the enclosure with them! They are reacting as simple animals, fight or flight! And since most you dont house your baby snakes in 120gal tanks, though that would make for the happiest cornsnake ever, they have nowhere to go to escape whatever intrusion is going on. I have bred all kinds of different species snakes for many years and the behavior is always generally the same. If they KNOW for sure its a prey item, after they have calmed down from having the cage opened and looking at your big ugly mug, I have never witnessed any snake continue to rattle its tail. Now thats just me and the hundreds of snakes I have kept. Plus reptile behavior has been written about since the great naturalists Darwins time, and there are plenty of books out there to read up on snake behavior. One of the most fascinating is Snakes: the evolution of mystery in nature by Harry W. Greene, or just about ANY college Herpetology textbook are also good reference material.

 

[the toe cutter]

Think about this, if they were excited about eating in the wild and rattled their tails, their prey would take off and the snakes would starve to death right? Its simple behavior

 

[blacktara]

I've seen that behavior in two wild snakes I ran across on seperate occasions - a rat snake and a bull snake, and have also seen it from my pet king snake when it's irritated

It's a sign of agitation - a warning of a forthcoming protective strike if the intruder doesnt back off and/or stop the offending activity

 

[Anubis77]

Interesting thread.

I see this with my Pituophis catenifer and Elaphe taeniura friesi. The P. catenifer does the typical rattle, but the E. taeniura does what I think is an attempt at a rattle, but with that ridiculously long tail, she ends up slapping the substrate and sides of the enclosure. More of a bang. She can't seem to rattle like the Gopher.

That snake is hilarious. So excitable.

 

[Aschamne]

My Pituophis catenifer vertibralis will do the rattle thing as well as hiss when he is agitated with me(usually when he is about to shed). He use to bite, but once he reached to 2' range he decided that biting didn't help although he still gets in the strike position.

Art

 

[the toe cutter]

Pituophis are some of the most fun as hatchlings to juvenile, ALOT of attitude! I have seen this rattling behavior in Asian ratsnakes and racers, nearly ALL North American colubrids, a few Central and South American colubrids, but I have never seen any of my African colubrids exhibit that behavior. And the Malagasy Hognoses I have are the most ridiculously intimidating snakes I have ever seen! Raising their hood, hissing and striking frantically and in every direction and despite thier size, they are VERY quick. Its quite amusing really. But never any tail rattling, nor in any of the psammophines I have either, though they are far less defensive.

 

[bwusstig]

The rattling of the tail CAN be out of "excitement" (feeding response) or it can also be defensive. In fact, just like the evolution of the rattle of the rattlesnake is beneficial to the snake in a defensive manner, many snakes have evolved a "caudal lure" (brightly colored tail) that when wiggled around in a feeding response, does just what it sounds...lures in the prey. If you want to see something really trippy... check this out...

http://researcharchive.calacademy.org/research/scipubs/pdfs/v57/proccas_v57_n14.pdf

It is called Pseudocerastes urarachnoides, and this species has a caudal lure that may mimic a solfugid. I'd love to see one of these snakes in person!

 

[the toe cutter]

Excitement in a strictly fight or flight response. Their brain structure does not have the faculties for "happy" feelings. And caudal lures are present in most Crotalid neonates here in the U.S. as well as ALOT of other pit viper species world wide. It is just another awesome evolutionary ambush predator trait!

 

[Dessicaria]

Excitement in a strictly fight or flight response. Their brain structure does not have the faculties for "happy" feelings.

I'm always baffled to see a statement like this. How could you possibly know what another being is or isn't feeling? I've seen what looks like "happy" (or certainly pleasure and contentment) from plenty of my snakes, and other ectotherms as well. When it's feeding time, or when they even *think* it's feeding time, my tiny newts look positively delighted to see me! They're neither fighting nor flighting at that point.

But likewise, without being in their heads, I don't *know* what they feel or don't feel. To dismiss them out-of-hand as being incapable, though, does them a great disrespect.

To edge back onto the topic ... I've got hatchling rat snakes this year who rattle their tails like crazy. They are loud! Living next to them is a pair of juvie prairie rattlers who make only the faintest, softest buzz. It's kind-of amusing.