Is there a spectrum of light that is visible to us but not to Ts? So that we can observe at night with out disrupting their nightly routine. Infrared, red light, blue light? Any suggestions or facts? I have been using a red lens head lamp lately and it seems that the Tarantulas don't see it as much or it does not bother them as much? I have seen some pretty cool stuff going on with red light. It still seems to bother a few of my spp. but not as much as white light. Anybody know what or if there is a spectrum that isn't visible at all that can be seen by us with the naked eye? I am pretty sure that infrared would work but I don't want to shell out the money to get some kind of night vision.
Infrared
- Thread starter frtysxan2
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Just get a standard red lightbulb from Exoterra. I reccomend them over Flukers, flukers seem to blow out a lot. Red light allows for night time viewing without disturbing the T. Again, just get a low wattage so you don't cook 'em.
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Coralife also puts out a line of LEDs, red, blue, or white, that don't put out any heat. The Red seems to disturb our store pet T. blondi less than the blue.
I've heard that the red end of the spectrum can be harder to see, but who's to say with a T? :? Bees and butterflies can see into the infrared spectrum!
I've heard that the red end of the spectrum can be harder to see, but who's to say with a T? :? Bees and butterflies can see into the infrared spectrum!
Yeah I use a normal red party bulb from target for my G. aureostriata. 25 watts. Not only does she not seem bothered by it, but she immediately left her hide to sit as close as she could to the bulb, and hasn't gone back to the hide since. I guess she wants to be warmer.
Red bulbs are great for viewing tarantulas and for gently heating them. Whether they can't see the red light or it just doesn't bother them, I don't know. But a party bulb seems to have the same properties as bulbs designed for pets.
Red bulbs are great for viewing tarantulas and for gently heating them. Whether they can't see the red light or it just doesn't bother them, I don't know. But a party bulb seems to have the same properties as bulbs designed for pets.
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Party bulbs are definitely cheaper than pet bulbs, that's for sure.
I have heard people recommend using a darkroom bulb designed for photographic development. Never tried it though. Those bulbs might not be the cheapest thing though.
Just from a technical perspective (that I do have experience with) I would strongly recommend light emitting diodes (LEDs) over normal light bulbs. The reason is that a normal light bulb works by heating up a filament which creates broad spectrum illumination (or exciting phosphors, also creating broad spectrum illumination). For a red light bulb a filter on the bulb itself then attenuates the higher frequency wavelengths.
An red LED on the other hand is actually generating red light in a very tight wavelength so your control of the lights actual output is much more controlled.
Another reason for choosing LEDs over standard light bulbs is (with the possible exception of a photographic darkroom bulb) that just because it *looks* red to us doesn't mean that it is red.
Say you have three frequencies F1, F2, F3, F4. You can see F1, F2, and F3 and your T can see F2, F3, and F4 (not saying she can or can't here, hypothetical). When you see all the frequencies combined you see a composite color of F1, F2, and F3 where your T sees a composite of F2, F3, and F4.
Now, say you have a light that generates frequencies F1 and F4. You see F1 and think it's safe for your T because you know your T can't see F1 but what you don't know is that the light is also generating light at F4 frequencies which your T *CAN* see and you can't.
If you use an LED you don't have this problem as the LEDs only generate frequencies along a very narrow wavelength so you can rest assured that the T isn't getting any "F4" frequencies leaking though a filter.
***DISCLAIMER*** While LEDs are a big exception to the rule, they work by generating a blue-ultraviolet light which then energizes a phosphor coated somewhere in the light bulb which glows yellow; the combination of the two frequencies is interpreted by our eyes as white.
I have heard people recommend using a darkroom bulb designed for photographic development. Never tried it though. Those bulbs might not be the cheapest thing though.
Just from a technical perspective (that I do have experience with) I would strongly recommend light emitting diodes (LEDs) over normal light bulbs. The reason is that a normal light bulb works by heating up a filament which creates broad spectrum illumination (or exciting phosphors, also creating broad spectrum illumination). For a red light bulb a filter on the bulb itself then attenuates the higher frequency wavelengths.
An red LED on the other hand is actually generating red light in a very tight wavelength so your control of the lights actual output is much more controlled.
Another reason for choosing LEDs over standard light bulbs is (with the possible exception of a photographic darkroom bulb) that just because it *looks* red to us doesn't mean that it is red.
Say you have three frequencies F1, F2, F3, F4. You can see F1, F2, and F3 and your T can see F2, F3, and F4 (not saying she can or can't here, hypothetical). When you see all the frequencies combined you see a composite color of F1, F2, and F3 where your T sees a composite of F2, F3, and F4.
Now, say you have a light that generates frequencies F1 and F4. You see F1 and think it's safe for your T because you know your T can't see F1 but what you don't know is that the light is also generating light at F4 frequencies which your T *CAN* see and you can't.
If you use an LED you don't have this problem as the LEDs only generate frequencies along a very narrow wavelength so you can rest assured that the T isn't getting any "F4" frequencies leaking though a filter.
***DISCLAIMER*** While LEDs are a big exception to the rule, they work by generating a blue-ultraviolet light which then energizes a phosphor coated somewhere in the light bulb which glows yellow; the combination of the two frequencies is interpreted by our eyes as white.
My head lamp has 4 LED bulbs the problem is, I don't know if it is a problem or not, that instead of a pure red LED it has a red filter that you can flip up or flip down depending on if you want red or white light. Would this cause the same problem as a normal bulb with a red filter? as for any kind of heat emiting red bulb, my room is generally on the warm side so that might be a bad thing. i am already pushing it at a steady room temp of 78 to 82 degrees F. Also it is not something I want to make permanent and want to be able to manipulate the angle of the light easily. Thanks for all the input. I do want to know, if anyone knows, if a red filter over a white LED is the same as a red filter over a normal white light.
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I wouldn't say that it's the same, but it's certainly similar. If you want to go the LED route, I'd just bite the bullet and get a true red one.
I think I will, they aren't that expensive. 5 to 10 doll hairs is my guess. Thanx!
Good comments. One downside of LED's though, which may be an upside from your perspective, is that they are efficient. That is, they don't turn a bunch of electricity into heat. I rather like the heating properties of a red incandescent light.
The comment about possible wavelengths being mixed in when you used an incandescent bulb makes sense as well, except that we have experimental evidence (me) that tarantulas are not bothered by incandescent bulbs, so while there may be other colors mixed in, we can't conclude that LED's are better in the sense that they don't disturb the tarantula. They may not bother T's, but there's no evidence that they are superior in this respect to an incandescent party bulb. (Remember that our observation that T's don't flee red light is just an observation, not a theoretical result). Since they cost more and are more difficult to find, I don't think we can say that LED bulbs are superior for this application.
We really don't know that tarantulas can't see red. I haven't seen anything authoritative on the matter and plenty of people have said the opposite. I'd be interested to experiment in the other direction and discover what colors don't bother them. I almost bought a yellow "bug light" to try out because it would be better from an illumination perspective (if it doesn't annoy my T).
The comment about possible wavelengths being mixed in when you used an incandescent bulb makes sense as well, except that we have experimental evidence (me) that tarantulas are not bothered by incandescent bulbs, so while there may be other colors mixed in, we can't conclude that LED's are better in the sense that they don't disturb the tarantula. They may not bother T's, but there's no evidence that they are superior in this respect to an incandescent party bulb. (Remember that our observation that T's don't flee red light is just an observation, not a theoretical result). Since they cost more and are more difficult to find, I don't think we can say that LED bulbs are superior for this application.
We really don't know that tarantulas can't see red. I haven't seen anything authoritative on the matter and plenty of people have said the opposite. I'd be interested to experiment in the other direction and discover what colors don't bother them. I almost bought a yellow "bug light" to try out because it would be better from an illumination perspective (if it doesn't annoy my T).
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That's right, Frtysxan2. A white LED generates it's light the same way that a non-blacklight florescent generates light: by exciting phosphors which generate light along a wide spectrum.
If you want the techie details here's what happens in an LED or florescent light: an electrical charge is passed though a medium (in the case of an LED it's a semiconductor, in the case of a florescent it's a noble gas). The electrical charge causes electrons to jump to higher energy valance shells. however, because they aren't at equilibrium at the higher valance they quickly drop back down. Because the electron is now more energized than the valance shell it inhabits the extra energy is released in the form of a photon (the frequency is determined by the energy differential between the shells which is determined by the material which is being used as a medium). Anyway, if you have a single frequency LED (like a red one) or a florescent blacklight this is the last step and you get a tightly controlled frequency of whatever colored light is being produced.
If, on the other hand you have a white LED or a white florescent what happens is the photons produced from the valence drop (in this case, ultraviolet light) hits a layer of phosphorescent material where the energy in the photon is absorbed by an electron which jumps to a higher valance shell. The electron then drops down and produces another photon which we use to see with. This creates an amalgam of frequencies which look white.
What your filter is doing is that it contains molecules in it which selectively absorb light at undesirable frequencies: in this case, it's absorbing green and blue frequencies. Any light that's not green or blue (like red pass).
Of course, the easiest way to get around this mess is to remove the spider's eyes. You can do this next time you go to your vet to get it de-fanged and de-venomed.
If you want the techie details here's what happens in an LED or florescent light: an electrical charge is passed though a medium (in the case of an LED it's a semiconductor, in the case of a florescent it's a noble gas). The electrical charge causes electrons to jump to higher energy valance shells. however, because they aren't at equilibrium at the higher valance they quickly drop back down. Because the electron is now more energized than the valance shell it inhabits the extra energy is released in the form of a photon (the frequency is determined by the energy differential between the shells which is determined by the material which is being used as a medium). Anyway, if you have a single frequency LED (like a red one) or a florescent blacklight this is the last step and you get a tightly controlled frequency of whatever colored light is being produced.
If, on the other hand you have a white LED or a white florescent what happens is the photons produced from the valence drop (in this case, ultraviolet light) hits a layer of phosphorescent material where the energy in the photon is absorbed by an electron which jumps to a higher valance shell. The electron then drops down and produces another photon which we use to see with. This creates an amalgam of frequencies which look white.
What your filter is doing is that it contains molecules in it which selectively absorb light at undesirable frequencies: in this case, it's absorbing green and blue frequencies. Any light that's not green or blue (like red pass).
Of course, the easiest way to get around this mess is to remove the spider's eyes. You can do this next time you go to your vet to get it de-fanged and de-venomed.
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If you're going for red light, I totally agree with gvfarns, unless you are having problems party bulbs are just as good if not, in some instances, better.
In my opinion though, I would rather use the low energy LED over the incandescent because it creates less heat. This helps the tarantula feel the difference between day and night which might be better for the animal. Also, I would worry about the extra heat source desiccating the poor creature if I forget to turn them off in the morning or something.
I have heard that Ts don't seem to respond to UV light either which may indicate that they may not respond to blue as well (because blue and UV are quite close in frequency). If this is true you could mix red and blue LEDs which would allow you to see color (reds, blues, and purples but no greens, oranges, or yellows) rather than just greyscale (redscale?).
Of course, look who's talking. I have a nightvision scope in my desk so... ;P
In my opinion though, I would rather use the low energy LED over the incandescent because it creates less heat. This helps the tarantula feel the difference between day and night which might be better for the animal. Also, I would worry about the extra heat source desiccating the poor creature if I forget to turn them off in the morning or something.
I have heard that Ts don't seem to respond to UV light either which may indicate that they may not respond to blue as well (because blue and UV are quite close in frequency). If this is true you could mix red and blue LEDs which would allow you to see color (reds, blues, and purples but no greens, oranges, or yellows) rather than just greyscale (redscale?).
Of course, look who's talking. I have a nightvision scope in my desk so... ;P
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Okay folks, I did some web searching to figure out the spider's visual acuity. At least as far as plain 'ol orb spiders are concerned their eyes are most sensitive to green, blue, and ultraviolet.
So use a red bulb, T's cant see it at all if we make the assumption that their eyes are similar to the orb weaver's (which we are).
If you want my source google "Circadian oscillation of sensitivity of spider eyes: diurnal and nocturnal spiders" which is by Shigeki Yamashita and Takiko Nakamura.
The exact frequencies that they pick up best are 360nm, 480-500nm, and 540nm.
When I get my slings I'll try building a light that has a 420nm LED, a 525nm LED, and a 630nm LED. Hopefully by straddling the spider's sensitive frequencies I can make a light that is more intense for us than for them allowing me to see them clearly (in color) without them being disturbed.
Other LEDs to consider:
525nm: bright green, our eyes are very sensitive to it; T, not so much.
590nm: yellow. our eyes can pick it up and it's further away from the Ts green receptor so it will appear darker to it.
630nm: bright red. Easy for us to see, the T shouldn't be able to see it at all.
660nm: deep red. Hard for our eyes to see, even harder for the T. Can't imagine using this except as a nightlight when you aren't actually looking at them.
400nm: ultraviolet. It's near ultraviolet so we might be able to pick it up. Could be useful. don't know.
440nm: pink. It should be easy for us to see but far enough away from the T's blue receptor that it won't bug them too much.
470nm: blue. close to the T's blue receptor frequency range so it might be able to see this. Use at low frequency to make the light more natural.
505nm: same as the 470nm.
To recap: white light though color-mixing LED arrays is usually accomplished though 470, 525, and 630nm LEDs which are close to our most sensitive frequencies. What we are trying to do is use 420, 590, and 630nm LEDs to try to tune it away from the Ts eye sensitivity while still allowing us to view them with three distinct wavelengths which is what is needed for color vision.
No guarantees that this will generate natural looking color without disturbing the T though. I imagine that the short wave (pink) and medium (green) might have to be too high.
I'll experiment some in the near future.
So use a red bulb, T's cant see it at all if we make the assumption that their eyes are similar to the orb weaver's (which we are).
If you want my source google "Circadian oscillation of sensitivity of spider eyes: diurnal and nocturnal spiders" which is by Shigeki Yamashita and Takiko Nakamura.
The exact frequencies that they pick up best are 360nm, 480-500nm, and 540nm.
When I get my slings I'll try building a light that has a 420nm LED, a 525nm LED, and a 630nm LED. Hopefully by straddling the spider's sensitive frequencies I can make a light that is more intense for us than for them allowing me to see them clearly (in color) without them being disturbed.
Other LEDs to consider:
525nm: bright green, our eyes are very sensitive to it; T, not so much.
590nm: yellow. our eyes can pick it up and it's further away from the Ts green receptor so it will appear darker to it.
630nm: bright red. Easy for us to see, the T shouldn't be able to see it at all.
660nm: deep red. Hard for our eyes to see, even harder for the T. Can't imagine using this except as a nightlight when you aren't actually looking at them.
400nm: ultraviolet. It's near ultraviolet so we might be able to pick it up. Could be useful. don't know.
440nm: pink. It should be easy for us to see but far enough away from the T's blue receptor that it won't bug them too much.
470nm: blue. close to the T's blue receptor frequency range so it might be able to see this. Use at low frequency to make the light more natural.
505nm: same as the 470nm.
To recap: white light though color-mixing LED arrays is usually accomplished though 470, 525, and 630nm LEDs which are close to our most sensitive frequencies. What we are trying to do is use 420, 590, and 630nm LEDs to try to tune it away from the Ts eye sensitivity while still allowing us to view them with three distinct wavelengths which is what is needed for color vision.
No guarantees that this will generate natural looking color without disturbing the T though. I imagine that the short wave (pink) and medium (green) might have to be too high.
I'll experiment some in the near future.
Are you a chemist? I have never taken a chemistry class but will be doing so soon. Right now I am in a low level bio class with one of the best professors, IMO, ever. We started at atoms and worked our way up to organisms and populations. Early on it seemed like a chemistry class, valence electrons, ions, photons, hydrogen bonds, covalent bonds, all that stuff. Very interesting stuff. With that being said, I did understand most of what you said and it makes sense.
As for the night vision, I hate night vision. I am in the Marines. When I was in Iraq in 2005 we ran lights out from dusk till dawn. For most of the time I was a Humvee driver/ dismount (infantry) and I had to wear night vision goggles for 8 hours at a time. Ouch! What was really cool though, is that we had a single head light with probably a field of 30 high powered IR LED's. Coupled with the goggles you could see for miles on good open terrain with out giving away your position with white light. So get yourself a IR LED (I don't know where you can find one) and use the scope then. I truly would invest in some kind of night vision but I got the starving college student thing going for me right now. So I try my best to spend money where it is needed. I wish I had a Night scope so I could ;P right along with you.
But then again how do you know that tarantulas can not see infrared light spectrum? Further more is it possible that some of these alternate light sources, IR and LED, emit photons that are harmful to tarantulas after long or frequent exposure? I know that night vision anything just gathers small amounts of photons to amplify the small amount of light at night, but some night vision has IR lights built in to make it more effective. I know that even though you can not see it, an IR laser is just as bad for your eyes as a red laser pointer. So, might it ruin what little vision the hairy beasts have since they like dark places for a reason, one would think? but in this case all light would be bad for them in large amounts and that would defeat the whole purpose of this thread. Anyways thanks for the comments, can't wait to hear what you have to say next.
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Nope, I'm not a chemist. I'm a psychology student training to be a (hopefully) a criminal psychologist (the police kind, not the *other* kind ) I'm just a *major* tinkerer and DIY person so, combined with my chem, physics, and other stuff I know my way around machines.
As for my nightvision setup, it's only a gen 1 setup that I got on the cheap; compared to the gen 3 setup you probably were playing with in the marines, it's junk. No good at all without an IR source but still totally wicked sick.
Don't worry about the poor spider's eyes. As for our eyes: infrared light is *much* more dangerous, watt for watt, than visible red light. Where visible red light will hurt our eyes our brain will constrict our irises which greatly helps to protect our vision. With IR, because we can't see it, our irises stay dilated and therefore many times the amount of light hits the retina. Of course, IR has much less energy than visible red has (each photon carries less energy) so you need much more luminosity (more photens) to impart the same amount of energy on the retina.
Because Ts don't have irises, you don't need to worry about the above for your T.
Ultraviolet light is a completely different story: this stuff is dangerous because it's starting to enter the domain of ionizing radiation. That means that the photon carries with it enough energy to possibly break an ion off of a molecule thus changing the chemical nature of the animal's cells. This is why delis and such use UV lights for anti-microbial deployments. Don't worry about what I'm recommending as that's near-visible infrared. Party lights are safe (except for that bit about our irises not responding to the light, so don't go crazy).
Here's a trick that might be worth trying: try flooding the enclosure with a lot of IR from one or more IR bulbs (make it bright!). If my hunch is correct (and it probably is as spider eyes are meant for low light conditions), the spider's eyes use a pigment which is light unstable.
Unstable pigments tend to make more sensitive photo receptors because they react more to light than a more photon-stable substance. Because spider's eyes are meant for low light conditions I would think this is the kind of pigment they would use.
Here's the cool part: unstable pigments can be broken down by *any* light, not just the light that the receptor is designed to respond to. This means that you can bleach the pigment in the spider's eyes with infrared light rendering the animal temporarily blind. Don't worry, it's temporary blindness and it shouldn't hurt the animal a whit, in fact it should be similar to the blindness it would encounter under normal room lighting during the day. That burning in the eyes that you feel when you step out on a sunny day, for example, is your eyes bleaching out; once the chemical reaches equilibrium your eyes stop hurting!
If you're worried about bleaching eyes just turn up the light slowly to make sure not too much of the pigment is being broken down at once.
If this idea works there is no reason you can't just use a white bulb combined with a near-visible IR source.
As for the wavelengths: don't worry about some wavelengths being harmful to the animal. First, they don't have irises so they can't attenuate the light in high-light conditions which means that their eyes *have* to be able to take the full brunt of high intensity light exposure. If they couldn't they would go permanently blind very quickly. What you need to concern yourself with is just making sure that the total wattage of all your lights stays within a safe margin for the animal (IE, less than daytime light). I'm talking about wattage in terms of light output not in terms of electrical draw. You could calculate this by multiplying the efficiency by the power draw of the bulb.
To be honest, I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. In the wild Ts sometimes venture into open sunlight and there is NO WAY you will be able to match the wattage output from the sun with LEDs, so relax. Furthermore, if you are damaging the Ts eyes you will probably be causing it a lot of pain; look for defensive posturing.
As for how I know the spider can't see IR: we know the wavelengths that the spider can see and it doesn't even come close to the IR spectrum.
If your spider runs for cover it's likely that you're turning up the IR blaster too quickly and causing the animal discomfort. Or, maybe it's bright enough.
As for obtaining the materials, you should be able to get them from any electronics supply house that sells stuff like resistors and caps and such.
) I'm just a *major* tinkerer and DIY person so, combined with my chem, physics, and other stuff I know my way around machines.As for my nightvision setup, it's only a gen 1 setup that I got on the cheap; compared to the gen 3 setup you probably were playing with in the marines, it's junk. No good at all without an IR source but still totally wicked sick.
Don't worry about the poor spider's eyes. As for our eyes: infrared light is *much* more dangerous, watt for watt, than visible red light. Where visible red light will hurt our eyes our brain will constrict our irises which greatly helps to protect our vision. With IR, because we can't see it, our irises stay dilated and therefore many times the amount of light hits the retina. Of course, IR has much less energy than visible red has (each photon carries less energy) so you need much more luminosity (more photens) to impart the same amount of energy on the retina.
Because Ts don't have irises, you don't need to worry about the above for your T.
Ultraviolet light is a completely different story: this stuff is dangerous because it's starting to enter the domain of ionizing radiation. That means that the photon carries with it enough energy to possibly break an ion off of a molecule thus changing the chemical nature of the animal's cells. This is why delis and such use UV lights for anti-microbial deployments. Don't worry about what I'm recommending as that's near-visible infrared. Party lights are safe (except for that bit about our irises not responding to the light, so don't go crazy).
Here's a trick that might be worth trying: try flooding the enclosure with a lot of IR from one or more IR bulbs (make it bright!). If my hunch is correct (and it probably is as spider eyes are meant for low light conditions), the spider's eyes use a pigment which is light unstable.
Unstable pigments tend to make more sensitive photo receptors because they react more to light than a more photon-stable substance. Because spider's eyes are meant for low light conditions I would think this is the kind of pigment they would use.
Here's the cool part: unstable pigments can be broken down by *any* light, not just the light that the receptor is designed to respond to. This means that you can bleach the pigment in the spider's eyes with infrared light rendering the animal temporarily blind. Don't worry, it's temporary blindness and it shouldn't hurt the animal a whit, in fact it should be similar to the blindness it would encounter under normal room lighting during the day. That burning in the eyes that you feel when you step out on a sunny day, for example, is your eyes bleaching out; once the chemical reaches equilibrium your eyes stop hurting!
If you're worried about bleaching eyes just turn up the light slowly to make sure not too much of the pigment is being broken down at once.
If this idea works there is no reason you can't just use a white bulb combined with a near-visible IR source.
As for the wavelengths: don't worry about some wavelengths being harmful to the animal. First, they don't have irises so they can't attenuate the light in high-light conditions which means that their eyes *have* to be able to take the full brunt of high intensity light exposure. If they couldn't they would go permanently blind very quickly. What you need to concern yourself with is just making sure that the total wattage of all your lights stays within a safe margin for the animal (IE, less than daytime light). I'm talking about wattage in terms of light output not in terms of electrical draw. You could calculate this by multiplying the efficiency by the power draw of the bulb.
To be honest, I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. In the wild Ts sometimes venture into open sunlight and there is NO WAY you will be able to match the wattage output from the sun with LEDs, so relax
. Furthermore, if you are damaging the Ts eyes you will probably be causing it a lot of pain; look for defensive posturing.As for how I know the spider can't see IR: we know the wavelengths that the spider can see and it doesn't even come close to the IR spectrum.
If your spider runs for cover it's likely that you're turning up the IR blaster too quickly and causing the animal discomfort. Or, maybe it's bright enough.
As for obtaining the materials, you should be able to get them from any electronics supply house that sells stuff like resistors and caps and such.
Wow, way to do your research, saminthemiddle! As far as I know that's the first time someone has explicitly brought to the board's attention the frequencies of light T's can see. Your findings do make me want to get a bug light now. I've been thinking it would illuminate my Chaco significantly better...golden stripes and all.
Good to know the T's see a subset of what we see, so we needn't worry about unobservable light bothering it (although red incandescent bulbs may well emit frequencies the T can see, just not as brightly as the red).
I wonder why people always worry about dessication when they talk about using red light for heating T's. T's naturally regulate their temperature and humidity by choosing the location that suits them best, so they should move away from the light if it makes them uncomfortable. Any heat source will tend to dry things out in the tank, but if you are only raising the temperature a few degrees it doesn't seem dangerous to me. And using a light bulb seems like a very gentle way to do that, not to mention one that is natural (in nature warmth comes from above, not the side of the tank).
I guess I have bad feelings about heating pads because in my experience either they don't work or they work too well.
Good to know the T's see a subset of what we see, so we needn't worry about unobservable light bothering it (although red incandescent bulbs may well emit frequencies the T can see, just not as brightly as the red).
I wonder why people always worry about dessication when they talk about using red light for heating T's. T's naturally regulate their temperature and humidity by choosing the location that suits them best, so they should move away from the light if it makes them uncomfortable. Any heat source will tend to dry things out in the tank, but if you are only raising the temperature a few degrees it doesn't seem dangerous to me. And using a light bulb seems like a very gentle way to do that, not to mention one that is natural (in nature warmth comes from above, not the side of the tank).
I guess I have bad feelings about heating pads because in my experience either they don't work or they work too well.
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Some questions and things to consider:
Many light sources emit ranges of frequencies with peaks at specific frequencies but they bleed off into others.
So your 420, 590, and 630nm LEDs might be in effect 400 - 440 with peaks at 420. But then I'm not so familiar with LED's spectra.
What sources for IR are you using? careful of ones that make heat.
I'm VERY anxious to see what you find out
Many light sources emit ranges of frequencies with peaks at specific frequencies but they bleed off into others.
So your 420, 590, and 630nm LEDs might be in effect 400 - 440 with peaks at 420. But then I'm not so familiar with LED's spectra.
What sources for IR are you using? careful of ones that make heat.
I'm VERY anxious to see what you find out
What would you use to regulate the frequency of an LED or three as you said, so that we can see almost the full spectrum with out the T seeing it?Nope, I'm not a chemist. I'm a psychology student training to be a (hopefully) a criminal psychologist (the police kind, not the *other* kind
As for my nightvision setup, it's only a gen 1 setup that I got on the cheap; compared to the gen 3 setup you probably were playing with in the marines, it's junk. No good at all without an IR source but still totally wicked sick.
Don't worry about the poor spider's eyes. As for our eyes: infrared light is *much* more dangerous, watt for watt, than visible red light. Where visible red light will hurt our eyes our brain will constrict our irises which greatly helps to protect our vision. With IR, because we can't see it, our irises stay dilated and therefore many times the amount of light hits the retina. Of course, IR has much less energy than visible red has (each photon carries less energy) so you need much more luminosity (more photens) to impart the same amount of energy on the retina.
Because Ts don't have irises, you don't need to worry about the above for your T.
Ultraviolet light is a completely different story: this stuff is dangerous because it's starting to enter the domain of ionizing radiation. That means that the photon carries with it enough energy to possibly break an ion off of a molecule thus changing the chemical nature of the animal's cells. This is why delis and such use UV lights for anti-microbial deployments. Don't worry about what I'm recommending as that's near-visible infrared. Party lights are safe (except for that bit about our irises not responding to the light, so don't go crazy).
Here's a trick that might be worth trying: try flooding the enclosure with a lot of IR from one or more IR bulbs (make it bright!). If my hunch is correct (and it probably is as spider eyes are meant for low light conditions), the spider's eyes use a pigment which is light unstable.
Unstable pigments tend to make more sensitive photo receptors because they react more to light than a more photon-stable substance. Because spider's eyes are meant for low light conditions I would think this is the kind of pigment they would use.
Here's the cool part: unstable pigments can be broken down by *any* light, not just the light that the receptor is designed to respond to. This means that you can bleach the pigment in the spider's eyes with infrared light rendering the animal temporarily blind. Don't worry, it's temporary blindness and it shouldn't hurt the animal a whit, in fact it should be similar to the blindness it would encounter under normal room lighting during the day. That burning in the eyes that you feel when you step out on a sunny day, for example, is your eyes bleaching out; once the chemical reaches equilibrium your eyes stop hurting!
If you're worried about bleaching eyes just turn up the light slowly to make sure not too much of the pigment is being broken down at once.
If this idea works there is no reason you can't just use a white bulb combined with a near-visible IR source.
As for the wavelengths: don't worry about some wavelengths being harmful to the animal. First, they don't have irises so they can't attenuate the light in high-light conditions which means that their eyes *have* to be able to take the full brunt of high intensity light exposure. If they couldn't they would go permanently blind very quickly. What you need to concern yourself with is just making sure that the total wattage of all your lights stays within a safe margin for the animal (IE, less than daytime light). I'm talking about wattage in terms of light output not in terms of electrical draw. You could calculate this by multiplying the efficiency by the power draw of the bulb.
To be honest, I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. In the wild Ts sometimes venture into open sunlight and there is NO WAY you will be able to match the wattage output from the sun with LEDs, so relax
As for how I know the spider can't see IR: we know the wavelengths that the spider can see and it doesn't even come close to the IR spectrum.
If your spider runs for cover it's likely that you're turning up the IR blaster too quickly and causing the animal discomfort. Or, maybe it's bright enough.
As for obtaining the materials, you should be able to get them from any electronics supply house that sells stuff like resistors and caps and such.
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The light that an LED creates is formed from electrons dropping into lower energy electron shells. Because the energy levels of electron shells are very uniform for a given material the amplitude of the electron's fall is very uniform. Because the light's frequency is a function of the electron's drop, the light generated is *very* uniform. But yes, it is emitted over a range; it's just a very small range that tapers off extremely quickly.
Keep in mind that the research we are working from is based on garden orb spiders and not tarantulas. We are making the assumption that the T eye is similar to the orb spider's.
We can make this assumption because we can be certain that the spider eye developed long before the T and the garden orb spider's lines diverged in the fossil record. I wouldn't expect the exact frequencies to drift at all because even tiny changes in a pigment drastically change the frequency that they absorb. What I would expect more is that either the T or the orb spider lost a pigment along their evolution which may very well be the case as I have been told that Ts can't see UV. That would indicate that, while orb spiders can see UV, blue, and green, Ts can only see blue and green (our ancestors used to be able to see UV, too, but we lost it at some point).
As for the LED frequencies and IR sources: *you* don't control the LED frequency. You buy LEDs that generate the frequency that you want. The frequencies that I outlined I chose because they are frequencies that are readily available cheaply.
As for IR source heat generation: all LEDs run cool so you should not have to worry about heat. Compare a 20mW LED to a 20W (20,000mW) party bulb. The advantage of a IR led over an incandescent light bulb is that the energy is concentrated as IR light (which isn't *heat* per say, but heats things up easily) rather than heat which gets transmitted though the air.
IMHO: I think the best chance of success lays in either the red-only lamp setup or the white with IR blasters setup. The three LED setup may work but the spider *will* see a substantial amount of light; we just have to try to keep it within what the spider is comfortable with (aka, moonlight levels).
The spider may react to the IR blasters like normal light, though, even though the spider can not see it. The thing is that Ts *may* be completely blind during the day (just hypothesizing here) because their eyes are bleached by the excess light and *may* just come out when they can see. Blinding them (nicely) then might send them back into their burrows. Just covering all bases here.
FYI: IR LEDs are quite common and cheap as they are used as transmitters in TV remotes.
Keep in mind that the research we are working from is based on garden orb spiders and not tarantulas. We are making the assumption that the T eye is similar to the orb spider's.
We can make this assumption because we can be certain that the spider eye developed long before the T and the garden orb spider's lines diverged in the fossil record. I wouldn't expect the exact frequencies to drift at all because even tiny changes in a pigment drastically change the frequency that they absorb. What I would expect more is that either the T or the orb spider lost a pigment along their evolution which may very well be the case as I have been told that Ts can't see UV. That would indicate that, while orb spiders can see UV, blue, and green, Ts can only see blue and green (our ancestors used to be able to see UV, too, but we lost it at some point).
As for the LED frequencies and IR sources: *you* don't control the LED frequency. You buy LEDs that generate the frequency that you want. The frequencies that I outlined I chose because they are frequencies that are readily available cheaply.
As for IR source heat generation: all LEDs run cool so you should not have to worry about heat. Compare a 20mW LED to a 20W (20,000mW) party bulb. The advantage of a IR led over an incandescent light bulb is that the energy is concentrated as IR light (which isn't *heat* per say, but heats things up easily) rather than heat which gets transmitted though the air.
IMHO: I think the best chance of success lays in either the red-only lamp setup or the white with IR blasters setup. The three LED setup may work but the spider *will* see a substantial amount of light; we just have to try to keep it within what the spider is comfortable with (aka, moonlight levels).
The spider may react to the IR blasters like normal light, though, even though the spider can not see it. The thing is that Ts *may* be completely blind during the day (just hypothesizing here) because their eyes are bleached by the excess light and *may* just come out when they can see. Blinding them (nicely) then might send them back into their burrows. Just covering all bases here.
FYI: IR LEDs are quite common and cheap as they are used as transmitters in TV remotes.
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Hey guys, I have been doing more research. It turns out that spider eye pigment isn't super selective like I was hoping it was so the three LED idea is tentatively shelved.
However, the IR blaster and white light idea most definitely isn't. In fact, from what I have seen it may also be worth it to try UV light as UV light has more energy than IR and will bleach a pigment with less amplitude.
From the preliminary stuff that I have been able to get online it would seem that different eyes in the arachnids have different pigment setups which may mean that some of their eyes are daytime eyes and some are night time eyes which bleach under too much radiation. It's not really clear, the scientific papers that I can find online seem to expect me to already know this stuff while the geeks with geocities accounts don't seem to care. I have to go down to the university research library and use of of their computers to get what I need.
However, the IR blaster and white light idea most definitely isn't. In fact, from what I have seen it may also be worth it to try UV light as UV light has more energy than IR and will bleach a pigment with less amplitude.
From the preliminary stuff that I have been able to get online it would seem that different eyes in the arachnids have different pigment setups which may mean that some of their eyes are daytime eyes and some are night time eyes which bleach under too much radiation. It's not really clear, the scientific papers that I can find online seem to expect me to already know this stuff while the geeks with geocities accounts don't seem to care.
I have to go down to the university research library and use of of their computers to get what I need.Great stuff saminthemiddle! I can't wait to hear more. Just wondering, why are you so gung ho about this whole thing? do you want to observe Ts doing their thing without interruption as much I do? Whatever your reason, thanks, it is nice to get a very in depth scientific angle on this subject. Which is exactly what i was looking for. Happy hunting.Hey guys, I have been doing more research. It turns out that spider eye pigment isn't super selective like I was hoping it was so the three LED idea is tentatively shelved.
However, the IR blaster and white light idea most definitely isn't. In fact, from what I have seen it may also be worth it to try UV light as UV light has more energy than IR and will bleach a pigment with less amplitude.
From the preliminary stuff that I have been able to get online it would seem that different eyes in the arachnids have different pigment setups which may mean that some of their eyes are daytime eyes and some are night time eyes which bleach under too much radiation. It's not really clear, the scientific papers that I can find online seem to expect me to already know this stuff while the geeks with geocities accounts don't seem to care.