Immoral?

[DaleGribble]

I have a 4' male argus monitor (and still growing) that I have raised from a baby. Due to size restrictions in my living space I have to keep him in a smaller enclosure than what would be ideal. To make up for this, I try to feed Little Jerry Seinfeld a varied diet. Chicken, mice, quail, crawfish, shrimp, roaches, and crix usually. I have wondered about adding tarantulas and garter snakes to the mix. What do you think, and bear in mind that they are animals just like the other food items!

 

[Galapoheros]

I offer any food/animals to the animals I am keeping that I think they will eat based on a few thoughts. Primarily, is it going to disrupt the environment, is it a rare animal, how interesting is the animal to me?.... I like T's and don't use them for food. But if they are all over the place where you are and you personally aren't interested in them, I would use them as food. We animal keepers always seem to ask ourselves this question sooner or later....about feeling responsible for the death of the prey. Instead of nature doing it, we consciously take it into our own hands. It's a good sign of compassion but, it's just the way it goes. The previous thread about dead mice hits home. We all eat stuff that has been killed by someone else (unless you killed it). I bet the guys at the slaughter house have gotten over this issue! The packaging that the mice at Petco come in is sadly funny. "Mice on Ice", and on the front, there are pictures of mice having fun playing in the snow! Man, haha, ..then you open it up and, well, they don't look too happy. The death is hidden from the public. All about perceptions and making a buck. They don't want everyone to be vegetarians. We don't feel as bad killing a potato, but they don't cost as much either.

 

[pitbulllady]

Feeding tarantulas could prove highly detrimental to the health of the monitor. Ever heard of "urticating hairs"? Probably not, so let me explain. Urticating hairs are the primary defense mechanism of most New World(as in North, Central and South America)theraphosids. These are barbed, detachable hairs which the spider can flick from its abdomen onto a potential attacker, and which can simply be rubbed off through physical contact with the spider or its environment. They are designed to lodge in, and cause irritation of, mucous membranes, especially the mouth, throat, nasal passages, and eyes of predators, and that irritation can vary from mild burning to severe pain and swelling. I would really hate to think about what would happen to an animal that got those hairs in its breathing passages or esophagus, having seen the results on one of my dogs from merely sniffing one of my Grammostolas(a genus not even known for bad hair-flicking tendencies)that briefly escaped. I'm still treating her eyes with a cortosteriod/antibiotic prescription medication, and her conjunctive are still completely swollen and covering her corneas two days later. If I'm not mistaken, Argus monitors aren't exactly a dime a dozen, and I'm sure New World tarantulas are not part of their natural diet, so why risk serious injury to the lizard?

Also, I'm curious to learn as to why varying its diet(not that it's a bad idea)is supposed to compensate for him being kept in too small an enclosure. It's not like the lizard is going to think, "Oh, well, sure he won't give me adequate housing, and I'm really getting cramped up in here, but at least he makes up for it by feeding me all these different things!" I would also be concerned that Garter snakes, being reptiles themselves, could easily pass along parasites and diseases, moreso than the other food items, though no food item is 100% safe in terms of that issue. I know if *I* had an Argus monitor, I'd be taking every possible precaution to make sure nothing happened to it.

Maybe it's just me, but something about this post just sort of has "TROLL" intertwined with it. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I'd think that anyone who had the money to purchase an Argus monitor would surely be able to afford a proper-sized enclosure, and would have done their "homework" with regards to safe vs. unsafe food items, and would almost certainly know about New World tarantulas having urticating hairs. Even many of my fourth graders I gave a tarantula presentation to last week at school knew THAT, just from watching the Discovery Channel.

pitbulllady

 

[nightbreed]

"mice on ice" thats classic, over here they are just packaged in clear plastic, I don't think we get quite the level of suger coating you guys get.

To be honest mate I would be less worried about his diet and more worried about his slightly cramped enclosure
But I guess you know what you're doing and you wouldn't jam him into something to small...I hope

For the most part I agree with Galapoheros, like him I wouldn't use T's because I like them same with snakes, but if there are lots of them in your area and you're not impacting the local population, then I'd go for it

I'm not gonna get into live v dead, I'm going to assume you're feeding prekill

P.S if we are talking wild caught here, then be very careful that you don't introduce something nasty to your pet.

EDIT; Pitbulllady got there first, and put it so much better than I, guess I'm not needed here

 

[Stylopidae]

I have a 4' male argus monitor (and still growing) that I have raised from a baby. Due to size restrictions in my living space I have to keep him in a smaller enclosure than what would be ideal. To make up for this, I try to feed Little Jerry Seinfeld a varied diet. Chicken, mice, quail, crawfish, shrimp, roaches, and crix usually. I have wondered about adding tarantulas and garter snakes to the mix. What do you think, and bear in mind that they are animals just like the other food items!

Talking about tarantulas as feeders on a tarantula enthusiast site...just not a good idea.

As Pitbulllady said, NW Ts wouldn't be a good idea. Neither would OW Ts because their venom tends to be more potent than the NW Ts.

Garter snakes would vary the diet some, you'd have to use CB to ensure parasites aren't transmitted.

That being said, why? His diet is varied enough already. I'd worry about him getting enough excersize before I'd worry about his diet.

 

[pitbulllady]

Talking about tarantulas as feeders on a tarantula enthusiast site...just not a good idea.

As Golapoheros (I hope I didn't butcher the name too badly) said, NW Ts wouldn't be a good idea. Neither would OW Ts because their venom tends to be more potent than the NW Ts.

Garter snakes would vary the diet some, you'd have to use CB to ensure parasites aren't transmitted.

That being said, why? His diet is varied enough already. I'd worry about him getting enough excersize before I'd worry about his diet.

Most people who breed Garter snakes in captivity concentrate on specific morphs, like the Flames and Albinos, and these can be quite expensive. I cannot justify a $100.00 + meal for any animal, when mice are much cheaper and just as nutritious insofar as meeting that animal's dietary needs, AND the owner apparently cannot afford a proper enclosure for the animal. It was also me, not Golopoheros, who stated that feeding a monitor(or any other animal, for that matter)New World T's is not a good idea due to the urticating hairs, though you have a point about the Old World T's being more venomous. I wonder if any of these monitors eat OW T's in the wild, though, and are immune to the venom. Still, with an animal that valuable, I wouldn't want to find out the hard way that they aren't.

pitbulllady

 

[Stylopidae]

I have a 4' male argus monitor (and still growing) that I have raised from a baby. Due to size restrictions in my living space I have to keep him in a smaller enclosure than what would be ideal. To make up for this, I try to feed Little Jerry Seinfeld a varied diet. Chicken, mice, quail, crawfish, shrimp, roaches, and crix usually. I have wondered about adding tarantulas and garter snakes to the mix. What do you think, and bear in mind that they are animals just like the other food items!

Sorry about the misquote, Pitbulllady. I edited my post and corrected it.

He did say that it was restrictions in his living space and not his budget that kept his monitor in an undersize enclosure.

I'd personally reccomend moving into a new place. I'd hate to have my pet feel cramped, but then again I care for my pets like I would if they were my kids. Just personal opinion.

I didn't even think about the price of the snakes in question to be used as feeders.

Either way, I think it's a bad idea.

 

[Galapoheros]

Feeding tarantulas could prove highly detrimental to the health of the monitor. Ever heard of "urticating hairs"? Probably not, so let me explain. Urticating hairs are the primary defense mechanism of most New World(as in North, Central and South America)theraphosids. These are barbed, detachable hairs which the spider can flick from its abdomen onto a potential attacker, and which can simply be rubbed off through physical contact with the spider or its environment. They are designed to lodge in, and cause irritation of, mucous membranes, especially the mouth, throat, nasal passages, and eyes of predators, and that irritation can vary from mild burning to severe pain and swelling. I would really hate to think about what would happen to an animal that got those hairs in its breathing passages or esophagus, having seen the results on one of my dogs from merely sniffing one of my Grammostolas(a genus not even known for bad hair-flicking tendencies)that briefly escaped. I'm still treating her eyes with a cortosteriod/antibiotic prescription medication, and her conjunctive are still completely swollen and covering her corneas two days later. If I'm not mistaken, Argus monitors aren't exactly a dime a dozen, and I'm sure New World tarantulas are not part of their natural diet, so why risk serious injury to the lizard?

Also, I'm curious to learn as to why varying its diet(not that it's a bad idea)is supposed to compensate for him being kept in too small an enclosure. It's not like the lizard is going to think, "Oh, well, sure he won't give me adequate housing, and I'm really getting cramped up in here, but at least he makes up for it by feeding me all these different things!" I would also be concerned that Garter snakes, being reptiles themselves, could easily pass along parasites and diseases, moreso than the other food items, though no food item is 100% safe in terms of that issue. I know if *I* had an Argus monitor, I'd be taking every possible precaution to make sure nothing happened to it.

Maybe it's just me, but something about this post just sort of has "TROLL" intertwined with it. If I'm wrong, so be it, but I'd think that anyone who had the money to purchase an Argus monitor would surely be able to afford a proper-sized enclosure, and would have done their "homework" with regards to safe vs. unsafe food items, and would almost certainly know about New World tarantulas having urticating hairs. Even many of my fourth graders I gave a tarantula presentation to last week at school knew THAT, just from watching the Discovery Channel.

pitbulllady

Good points! I know about T's but I don't know how or if some reptiles can handle them, or even if they are a part of a diet of some. Why risk it if you don't know. Forums are a good thing! There IS a funny ring to the question. But, oh well.

 

[Thoth]

I don't know if its feasible but to to periodically let him wander about outside his enclosure in the apartment for excercise, that would be better than adding those other items to his diet. Until I was able to move to move a cornsnake to larger enclosure, I would take him out daily (except pre-shed and after feedings before any one chides) and let him excercise.

 

[Randolph XX()]

Varanids are old world lizards, so feed them old world Ts if u want..

 

[Sequin]

haahhahaha how can you make up for a small cage with a better diet....

 

[DaleGribble]

For one thing some of you obviously know nothing about the kind of animals monitors are, much less argus monitors. They are the top of the food chain and will eat ANYTHING they can kill. In Africa they eat cobras and T's and I'm sure Argus' run across some pretty tough customers in Australia and New Guinea. Monitors eat festering corpses so I doubt a parasite in a garter snake would pose a problem.
Also, when I say smaller than ideal I mean that these guys wander miles a day in the wild and I keep mine in a 6'X3' custom enclosure.
I love spiders I have a decent collection myself, but they are only a very few evolutionary steps above the crix we throw without a second thought. Argus monitors are the most intelligent of all and variety in prey is at least some mental stimulation.

 

[DaleGribble]

Also I wanted to add that yes, the hairs in new world T's could be a problem, but Usumbara's and other common african T's are as cheap as rose hairs.

 

[pitbulllady]

For one thing some of you obviously know nothing about the kind of animals monitors are, much less argus monitors. They are the top of the food chain and will eat ANYTHING they can kill. In Africa they eat cobras and T's and I'm sure Argus' run across some pretty tough customers in Australia and New Guinea. Monitors eat festering corpses so I doubt a parasite in a garter snake would pose a problem.
Also, when I say smaller than ideal I mean that these guys wander miles a day in the wild and I keep mine in a 6'X3' custom enclosure.
I love spiders I have a decent collection myself, but they are only a very few evolutionary steps above the crix we throw without a second thought. Argus monitors are the most intelligent of all and variety in prey is at least some mental stimulation.

I beg your dear pardon, Dale. I have kept Savannah, Mangrove, and Water monitors, including an adult of the latter. I am very familiar with their needs and intelligence. I know what they eat in the wild, and that does NOT include ANY tarantulas with urticating hairs! What a cobra's fangs can't achieve from the outside, those tiny inoccuous little barbs can achieve from the inside. I'm also very much aware that wild monitors eat rotting carcasses, BUT the bacteria of decay is NOT the same as those bacteria or viruses which are responsible for contagious diseases. I also know that Garter snakes are not found in the same habitat as Argus monitors, which means that a wc Garter can indeed harbor pathogens or parasites for which the monitor has no natural resistance. Alligators are pretty tough customers in the digestion department, too, yet they have been known to succumb to West Nile Virus, a disease not native to North America. Why take the risk? If you want to feed the lizard Usambaras or other Old World Ts, fine, but I was suggesting that you steer clear of New World species, no matter how cheap, or how unevolved, they may seem. It appears to me that the main purpose of your original question was simply to try to provoke an emotional response from those who love tarantulas and snakes, rather than to find out if the meals you proposed were actually of any nutritional value to the monitor, since you apparently already had formed your own conclusion before posting. Failing to get the desired reaction of "OH, how COULD you feed those poor tarantulas and widdle snakies to a bad old lizard", to had to resort to bashing the knowledge of the people who did respond to you with intelligent, non-emotional answers.

You still have not answered the question, though, posed by myself and some others, as to how varying the diet will compensate for a too-small cage. One of the reasons I no longer keep Varanids is because I do not have the space to provide one, at least not one larger than an Ackie, with the proper-sized enclosure. No matter what I feed it, no matter how much I vary its routine or try to stimulate its intellect, that will not make up for the fact that it would be living in a cramped enclosure. I've got a pretty darn high IQ, but if I have to live in some tiny little box, it won't matter if Emeril is my own personal chef-I'm still not going to be happy.

pitbulllady

 

[DaleGribble]

Well actually the reason I posted this question was more to see how people feel about the MORAL aspect of it (the title of the post should have tipped you off). I have absolutely no trouble raising any of my reptiles so I don't need to ask for advice on the nutritional value of prey. I have studied monitors extensively, more scientific journals than anything, not those books found in the pet store. I believe that there is mental stimulation in varying the food items as much as possible, considering food is one of two major drives in these animals (I'll let you guess what the other one is).
Also, although my monitor is not kept in an outdoor enclosure like I think he should be, he is a fiesty, extremely healthy specimen and is admired by many of my fellow varanid enthusiasts.

 

[Stylopidae]

Well actually the reason I posted this question was more to see how people feel about the MORAL aspect of it (the title of the post should have tipped you off). I have absolutely no trouble raising any of my reptiles so I don't need to ask for advice on the nutritional value of prey. I have studied monitors extensively, more scientific journals than anything, not those books found in the pet store. I believe that there is mental stimulation in varying the food items as much as possible, considering food is one of two major drives in these animals (I'll let you guess what the other one is).
Also, although my monitor is not kept in an outdoor enclosure like I think he should be, he is a fiesty, extremely healthy specimen and is admired by many of my fellow varanid enthusiasts.

As long as you are keeping him healthy and letting him get enough excersize, it's not immoral.

The only moral aspect is the snake feeling pain...and that to me isn't too much different than a mouse feeling pain.

One more thing...could you keep him in an outdoor enclosure for the summer months?

 

[Galapoheros]

Hehehehe! You WERE trolling! It sounded suspicious but you never know who's on the other end. I would have said, "I've got access to puppies and kittens that don't have a home, just too many of them. Thinking about feeding them to my monitor..." Dang, I should have PM'd you that one.

Yea, for big herps, I like to have a place to temporarily put them outside. My dad has some hunting dogs and had a dog run installed with a slab and fenced all around including the top. I thought it was pretty cheap when I visited and he told me how much it cost. I would guess it's 10'x15' and about 8' tall. It was cheaper than a big parrot cage.

 

[RVS]

As was said before feeding it tarantulas wouldn't be good for its health. I would also avoid garter snakes since they may harbor paarsites which could transfer to your monitor.
BTW - I love Argus monitors! I had one a few years ago, and I really want another. That's probably the only vertebrate I'm really interested in owning. :razz: