Identification: "Bought as Hysterocrates hercules"

[Tugbay Yagci]

Greetings.
Bought this one as a H. hercules when it was a tiny sling. These are my first photos of it during 3 years. I had no idea when it molted, what did it do, what does it look like during this long period.

Now i managed to get some photos as i rehoused it, and i have read several topics about this genus claiming that "no H. hercules exist, your H. hercules is either a H. gigas or H. ederi"

What are your ideas? I'd would like to know.

 

[seanbond]

wheres a pik?
and i agree, h hercules isnt around or nobody is saying thay have em

 

[Exo]

wheres a pik?
and i agree, h hercules isnt around or nobody is saying thay have em

There are a few people in europe that have some.

 

[seanbond]

There are a few people in europe that have some.

us speaking, sorry
evrything is in europe!

 

[Tugbay Yagci]

here are the pictures.

 

[billopelma]

Bottom line, you can't ID it to species level without original locality/collection data.

There are a few people in europe that have some.

Who ID'ed them? That would be big 'taxonomic' news, I'd imagine someone would want credit for it...
Unless something has changed very recently, as far as I know Richard Gallon (a/the leading authority on African t's) still maintains they are not in the hobby.

I wish people would stop perpetuating this unsubstantiated crap. Next it will be another thorelli/paganus thread... :wall:

Bill

 

[Bill S]

Unless something has changed very recently, as far as I know Richard Gallon (a/the leading authority on African t's) still maintains they are not in the hobby.

Given that individual hobbyists do get out in the field collecting specimens from different countries, I don't really see how one person can make the statement that any given species "does not exist in the hobby". All it takes is for one person to visit the country where a species lives and collect a specimen or two. There's no record keeping of such events, and no requirement to notify Mr. Gallon or any other "leading authority".

If he wants to say something is "not generally seen" in the hobby, that might make sense. Or even "most specimens of X species seen in the hobby are not correctly identified."

As for Hysterocrates hercules..... I haven't a clue.

 

[Exo]

It's nice to know that I'm a poster of "unsubtantiated crap", I did not previously know this, so thanks for letting me know.

The european T community is very different from ours and many of them could care less about reporting what they own to the scientific community. If a breeder wants a rare T, they will find someone who will get it for them.

 

[billopelma]

If he wants to say something is "not generally seen" in the hobby, that might make sense. Or even "most specimens of X species seen in the hobby are not correctly identified."

Can't recall (or don't know) the details but there are issues with the condition of the type specimen and maybe the description and/or locality info. It's purely conjecture to say any spider is it until it's compared to the type and some particular set of parameters are met.
Since no one has ever compared and identified (or can ever, possibly) a spider as being H. hercules since Pocock described it in 1897 then no one can say they have it. How would you know?:?

It's nice to know that I'm a poster of "unsubtantiated crap", I did not previously know this, so thanks for letting me know.

Sorry for the rant. I see you're fairly new here and I guess I should have cut you some slack but this subject just comes up over and over and never seems to go away. It still is "unsubstantiated crap" IMHO and that's why these things perpetuate...

As for the Europeans, sure they're ahead of us in the hobby but that doesn't mean there are no dis-informed noobs and idiots over there either. I bought an H. "hercules" just for <edit> and grins at a show in germany a few years ago because it did actually look different from other Hysterocrates I'd seen and it was only 3 euro. It is presently a typical 6" mature male "hobby gigas" looking T, if you know anyone who want's one...


Bill

 

[Philth]

If a breeder wants a rare T, they will find someone who will get it for them.

Or someone who will call it that to make a few bucks.

Later, Tom

 

[JimM]

I don't think there are any T collector running around in H. gigas home turf.
Nigeria is a dangerous place. That alone is enough reason to be highly skeptical of any supposed H. hercules being kept on any continent.

 

[Bill S]

Can't recall (or don't know) the details but there are issues with the condition of the type specimen and maybe the description and/or locality info. It's purely conjecture to say any spider is it until it's compared to the type and some particular set of parameters are met.
Since no one has ever compared and identified (or can ever, possibly) a spider as being H. hercules since Pocock described it in 1897 then no one can say they have it. How would you know?:?

OK. If you don't know what the issues are with the type specimen, how do you know nobody has compared specimens to it?

Beyond the specimen itself, there should have been a written description, hopefully including illustrations, detailing key features that the author thought separated it from other similar species. If someone sank the species (undermined the reasons for calling it a separate species), that would be one thing - but if the species still stands as valid and identifying features have been noted and recorded - that information should be adequate for someone to tentatively identify captive specimens. In the original description there could also be the type locality, and in todays world of relatively easy travel a collector could go to the type locality and collect. And again, there would be no reason to assume that a collector would feel obligated to announce to the world where they had traveled or what they had collected.

One poster has suggested that because Nigeria is a troubled region, it's reasonable to assume that collectors would not be able to go there. Sorry if I offend anyone - but that's a pretty naive viewpoint. People DO travel into troubled regions, for many different reasons. And while in those places may well collect specimens to bring home with them. I personally have friends and relatives who have traveled into troubled regions (including countries in Africa), and they have collected biological specimens. (Regretably, not tarantulas though.)

 

[billopelma]

OK. If you don't know what the issues are with the type specimen, how do you know nobody has compared specimens to it?

I have no clue as to what or whether anything has been compared, just that nothing has matched whatever there is to match and if it has is not published. Just because a species "stands as valid" doesn't necessarily mean what's available is enough to validate new material. C. thorelli is an example of that.

Beyond the specimen itself, there should have been a written description, hopefully including illustrations, detailing key features that the author thought separated it from other similar species. If someone sank the species (undermined the reasons for calling it a separate species), that would be one thing - but if the species still stands as valid and identifying features have been noted and recorded - that information should be adequate for someone to tentatively identify captive specimens. In the original description there could also be the type locality, and in todays world of relatively easy travel a collector could go to the type locality and collect.

'...hopefully, should have, could have, would have, but if...' whatever....
You seem to know much more about taxonomic procedure than I, do a bit of digging and let me in on what's actually current fact instead of just conjecturing on generalities.

I'm not referring to a general number of species here, I'm talking about H. hercules, specifically.
I don't know what the details are. What I'm saying is very simple, no one has validated any material since 1897.
Until that happens no one can say they have it. If someone does have it but it hasn't been compared/matched then it is still *not valid*. Again, how would they know? I don't think just anyone can walk into the BMNH entomology dept and ask to play with the type specimens. How difficult is this to understand?

I'm done...

Bill

 

[JimM]

One poster has suggested that because Nigeria is a troubled region, it's reasonable to assume that collectors would not be able to go there.

I simply said it's reason to be skeptical...that's not naive, it's reasonable.
I never said it was impossible.

 

[Tugbay Yagci]

thanks for hacking out this thread. I think US boards was a wrong place to ask for this specie.

What would you write if i didnt include "H. hercules" in the thread? I am sure then I would get what I wanted.

anyway, nevermind.

 

[EDED]

Tugbay

try UK sites like BTS or the tarantula store

and compared the replies regarding H. 'hercules'

dont get too upset man


Bill S, you should ask your friends to bringing in some rare T's, sounds like they are adventurist,,,initial introduction of any new species (well depending on size/coloration usually but anything new) will make good profit, until they get bred and bred. im sure they got some monster spiders in Africa

 

[GoTerps]

Given that individual hobbyists do get out in the field collecting specimens from different countries, I don't really see how one person can make the statement that any given species "does not exist in the hobby". All it takes is for one person to visit the country where a species lives and collect a specimen or two. There's no record keeping of such events, and no requirement to notify Mr. Gallon or any other "leading authority".

If he wants to say something is "not generally seen" in the hobby, that might make sense. Or even "most specimens of X species seen in the hobby are not correctly identified."

As for Hysterocrates hercules..... I haven't a clue.

Hi Bill,

First, I totally understand what your saying.

However, in this case, it would be entirely necessary for whoever collected these specimens to examine the type... or else there would be no way for them to know their specimens are what was described as H. hercules. They would also need a good feel for this genus overall, and an idea what they would be looking for in their comparisons. Pocock's 1899 description is not going to cut it in this case. And if someone was accessing this type at the British Museum, I'm quite confident Richard would know about it . Until this genus is properly dealt with, the collectors of these specimens wouldn't know what they had.

I guess we can all wait for that dude from LOST to parachute into the Niger Delta (I've have to pass on this excursion) and bring some specimens back Do some searches if that statement is 'lost' on you!

Eric

PS. The type is a very large specimen... I've seen it
PSS. A commonly linked to thread regarding captive Hysterocrates, for those interested. CLICK HERE

 

[billopelma]

What would you write if i didnt include "H. hercules" in the thread? I am sure then I would get what I wanted.

What? I answered your question first line of my first post, regardless of the hercules banter. Maybe not what 'you wanted' to hear but not my fault if you didn't believe it...

Originally Posted by billopelma
Bottom line, you can't ID it to species level without original locality/collection data.

If you would like another more professional opinion read GoTerps link.

Bill

 

[JimM]

Eric,

Any idea if the photo in Russ Gurley's old book is an actual hercules?

 

[Bill S]

Can't recall (or don't know) the details but there are issues with the condition of the type specimen and maybe the description and/or locality info.

I have no clue as to what or whether anything has been compared, just that nothing has matched whatever there is to match and if it has is not published.

I don't know what the details are. What I'm saying is very simple, no one has validated any material since 1897.

I'm kind of repeating myself, but it's because there are holes in your statements that are somewhat contradictory. Above, for example, you say you have no idea whether any comparisons have been made. You don't know any details. OK. So if you don't know that, how do you know that nobody has found any matches?

Since no one has ever compared and identified (or can ever, possibly) a spider as being H. hercules since Pocock described it in 1897 then no one can say they have it.

Again, you're making absolute statements that are based on your admitted conjectures.

... do a bit of digging and let me in on what's actually current fact instead of just conjecturing ....

I was just going to suggest you do the same.

Again, how would they know? I don't think just anyone can walk into the BMNH entomology dept and ask to play with the type specimens. How difficult is this to understand?

I haven't been in the BMNH, so I can't speak to their policies - but I've certainly been in other museums and universities and was allowed to walk in and look at type specimens. It's not like you need national security clearance. Generally if you present yourself as a responsible person curators will allow you access. At least one other person in this discussion has seen the type specimen of H. hercules, and very likely he's not the only person in the world to do so.

So again I'll ask the question - how do you know nobody has compared specimens they've collected with the type specimen? Is it more than pure conjecture? Or do you have actual knowledge that nobody has done so?