Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta"....cf. hercules ???

[xenesthis]

Take a look at this beauty! Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta

Note some observations that are different from the last 10 yrs. of West African imports of Hysterocrates species which as mainly been of H. gigas, H. crassipes, and H. laticeps.
1) Coloration is much lighter.
2) Legs 4 are only slightly longer than legs 1.
3) In the mature male, the carapace is 22mm x 22mm much like the real H. hercules.
4) Legs 4 are slightly thicker than legs 1, but much less than typical H. gigas and H. crassipes.
5) The mature male has a significant 6.5" leg span.

Could this be the closest thing to H. hercules we have seen in a long time. I once saw in 1995 a very differently looking Hysterocrates sp. that had a HUGE rounded carapace, shorter and thinner leg 4 than leg 1, and a olive-brown and more hairy appearance than any Hysterocrates that I've seen since then.

Constructive thoughts, opinions, reactions are welcome!

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Wow that's an awsome looking spider! The back legs do appear not as thick as Gigas or Crassipes and thicker than Laticeps as you said. Unless, (as I have learnt) leg 4 being even slightly closer to the camera over the first leg, makes it appear thicker than it actually is. But in real life as you have put this a as a distinct feature then it could be a new species.. it does seem to have the shape to the carapace of laticeps for sure, being shoter and almost round, but the back legs do definitely appear different to the usually seen laticeps which are thinner.

I would say the mature male looks similar to 'Ooyas' mature male on my Hercules research thread. From what I believe is a Hercules mature male on page 4 of the thread it shows subtle but clear differences to what I believe is likely the laticeps mature male shown by Ooya.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what species yours is. Unless the camera isn't picking up the shapes and sizes well, then from my experience if it were to be a known species then it would be younger spiders of H. gigas, but it could also be some regional form of H. laticeps/ hercules, but the mature male does appear most alike to gigas/ laticeps.

I think if the leg 4 is short and you wanted to see if it was Hercules, then these comparisons could be made.. but female H. hercules has very slim, short back legs, (especially the patella and tibia) and the mature male looks different to mine. Prehaps a video could be taken and uploaded to YouTube, I will also upload some of my spiders for you to compare too.. Interesting spiders!


Maybe post some pictures of the female carapace from the top down to see the foveal groove, shape of the carapace and clypeus distance and shape. That would be good to see and compare too. Some close ups of the clypeus area/ eye area would he good, as it may even be Hysterocrates crassipes!

 

[xenesthis]

Paul,
Thanks for your posts. I'll be honest, when I look at the color pictures for comparison, the differences in the species is so subtle-looking. I just don't see the distinctiveness of the taxonomic features. Black and white illustrations emphasizing these features is what really shows the contrast for me. Ideally, it would be also if somebody could display black and white illustrations of the genus "side-by-side" with comparing bodies of the same size as well. Then, the contrast would stand out for me. It doesn't help when some species "lose" the thickness of legs 4 when they are adults also.

Wow that's an awsome looking spider! The back legs do appear not as thick as Gigas or Crassipes and thicker than Laticeps as you said. Unless, (as I have learnt) leg 4 being even slightly closer to the camera over the first leg, makes it appear thicker than it actually is. But in real life as you have put this a as a distinct feature then it could be a new species.. it does seem to have the shape to the carapace of laticeps for sure, being shoter and almost round, but the back legs do definitely appear different to the usually seen laticeps which are thinner.

I would say the mature male looks similar to 'Ooyas' mature male on my Hercules research thread. From what I believe is a Hercules mature male on page 4 of the thread it shows subtle but clear differences to what I believe is likely the laticeps mature male shown by Ooya.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what species yours is. Unless the camera isn't picking up the shapes and sizes well, then from my experience if it were to be a known species then it would be younger spiders of H. gigas, but it could also be some regional form of H. laticeps/ hercules, but the mature male does appear most alike to gigas/ laticeps.

I think if the leg 4 is short and you wanted to see if it was Hercules, then these comparisons could be made.. but female H. hercules has very slim, short back legs, (especially the patella and tibia) and the mature male looks different to mine. Prehaps a video could be taken and uploaded to YouTube, I will also upload some of my spiders for you to compare too.. Interesting spiders!
 View attachment 437277 View attachment 437278 View attachment 437279 View attachment 437280 View attachment 437281 View attachment 437282

Great info....and then, more confusion sets in on this species. It appears to have features of three species which doesn't clear up things. Is their a better to do a "rule out" to definitely rule out it being one or more species?

 

[Paul Osullivan]

That's understandable Xenesthis, I completely understand that! If you look on my thread the ammount of photos Ooya and myself have posted to try to identify his spider was crazy! Though I think we have learned a lot in that time. But certainly the best way is to examine an exuvia for identification, although eventually it seems some sort of identification was eventually made. Here I have put Andrew Smiths drawings of the Hysterocrates holotypes together for you, although some of the proportions may be different due to swelling/ lengthening of the legs (especially in the now longer leg 4 of Hercules). Unfortunately these are all of varying sizes and this only captures certain features at certain life stages and as you probably know are important..
(My sketchches above are more accurate in their proportions as these were taken from Pococks measurements pre-preservation). But I need to draw Laticeps which I will get round too soon, but they do give some sort of 'feel' for the size and proportions of the carapace size, shape and legs in relation to each other.

I have dug up a female Hysterocrates gigas that is around 5 inches. It does appear very alike to yours, but prehaps the legs are a bit thicker? I will send a picture after mine sheds again to see if her legs thin and look more alike to yours, but she does appear alike. The next photos shows a gigas of around 6.5 inches but you can see she appears much stockier and looks something alike to when they are smaller. I don't think it would be a bad guess to say your orange colored one looks a molt ahead of my smaller one, but a molt behind my bigger one? also I think yours in its coloration will shed very soon as the yellow/ orange colour indicates an imminent molt and definitely a process of elimination would be the best way and I would say it's not laticeps or hercules, so likely gigas or possibly a new species that's not been seen before, possibly even Hysterocrates scepticus. (I will post pictures of this after)

Gigas 6.5"

The Scepticus does seem to have a lighter color alike to laticeps, and leg 4 is something in between Laticeps and Gigas I would say. Leg one femur should appear long and not as curved. But these come from Sao Tome island not really the Niger delta, I think "H. sp Niger delta" may have your species found somewhere in this vast region or it could be inaccurate collection data as seems to often be with Hysterocrates. For now I would say it was most alike to Hysterocrates gigas from what can be seen by your photo's, but leg 4 may thin further on the next molt and then I wouldn't be sure it was gigas if this happens..

**Sorry I forgot I couldn't post pictures from andrews book or pictures of the Scepticus, I have saught permission from the authors and I'm able to use them in my book, but not sure for public posting so they was removed**

 

[xenesthis]

More pics of the Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta". I'm measured the legs of several sub-adults around 4.5" leg span, and leg 4 was the same length as leg 1 around 6 cm / 2.36 inches.

 

[Paul Osullivan]

More pics of the Hysterocrates sp. "Niger Delta". I'm measured the legs of several sub-adults around 4.5" leg span, and leg 4 was the same length as leg 1 around 6 cm / 2.36 inches. View attachment 438986 View attachment 438987

That's awsome. The back legs appear thinner on this one than the other females from before. Possibly this is H. laticeps? Leg 4 tibia appears a similar thickness throughout and is a similar width to the femur, which is longer and slender compared to leg 1's femur. Maybe take some photos of the 4th meta-tarsus to see if they are alike to Laticeps/ maybe Hercules, but I think it looks like H. laticeps from those pictures. What do you think?

 

[xenesthis]

That's awsome. The back legs appear thinner on this one than the other females from before. Possibly this is H. laticeps? Leg 4 tibia appears a similar thickness throughout and is a similar width to the femur, which is longer and slender compared to leg 1's femur. Maybe take some photos of the 4th meta-tarsus to see if they are alike to Laticeps/ maybe Hercules, but I think it looks like H. laticeps from those pictures. What do you think?
View attachment 439113

See a draft of what I put together. Please add corrections or additional notes. Thanks!

 

[xenesthis]

See pics of two Hysterocrates sp. females that laid sacs for me at: https://arachnoboards.com/gallery/categories/tarantula-identification.11/

Reference them as "A" female and "B" female (that is marked on the pics).

 

[Paul Osullivan]

See a draft of what I put together. Please add corrections or additional notes. Thanks!
View attachment 439373

Awsome, that's a good way to present the species distinguishing features! Everything looks about right. Maybe you could add a line called "Foveal groove" (that's the "C/V" looking shape on the middle of the carapace). So Crassipes = Shallow curve, Gigas and Laticeps both have a Medium curve and Hercules = Strong curve.

Also, for Gigas (5"+ spiders) you could add "4th Tibia thinner than femur" and for Crassipes "Tibia thicker than femur/ very swollen in younger stages and 4th meta-tarsus covered in longer thicker hairs" and for Hercules "Tibia MUCH thinner than femur". I think you have put something similar, but Pocock added the femur for the tibia to compare too in each species. Also crassipes has a longer 4th and smaller body over gigas. Maybe also for Laticeps you could add "leg 1 femur bulbous at it's end and 4th femur slender compared to 1st". The Palp Tarsus in Crassipes is "slightly swollen" compared to the others and Hercules have "strongly curved palp femurs". Also the integument/ skin color on the carapace is predominantly a deep brown (almost black) shade in Gigas, Crassipes and Laticeps but Hercules has a very noticable deep black color on the worn patches on the carapace that is noticeably different to the other Hysterocrates.. if you wanted to add these points too..

See pics of two Hysterocrates sp. females that laid sacs for me at: https://arachnoboards.com/gallery/categories/tarantula-identification.11/

Reference them as "A" female and "B" female (that is marked on the pics).

That's good and I hope they develop well. I think they both look very much like H. gigas maybe in time they will show some of the distinguishing features