Heating question...will this work?

[hillie16]

This is the tank my A. seemanni is in.

I got a small zoo med heat pad, the kind you stick to the bottom of the tank for reptiles. The pad is small enough that I can put it on a side instead of the back. I was thinking of putting it on the side (left or right) so the T could have a warmer or cooler place to go, whichever it needed. Would this work? And if so, would it be better to put it on the left where the water dish is, or on the right a little bit away from the hide so the warm side is the hide side?

 

[Jeff_C]

What is the normal temp range in the room? You might not even need the heating pad. But as you described I would add it to the side with the water dish so that it has the added effect of increasing the humidity in the enclosure slightly.

Jeff

 

[Valael]

Yeah, it would work. But I've heard a few people (And I do it myself) say that heating isn't really worth the effort unless your house is ridiculously cool.

It'll slow their growth a little, but I'd assume that would mean an extended life, too. No evidence to prove that, though.

 

[hillie16]

I'm in PA and this old house we are renting gets cold in the winter...on a two year plan to buy a new house in the 150K range so I need to keep the T warm for 2 more years lol

 

[Mendi]

Why do you need to heat it? If you are comfortable in the room with your pet, it is most likely comfortable too. I keep all mine at
70-75°F with the fluctation due to the outside temperature. They are all doing fine and growing at a very good rate. Heating them isn't really needed unless you are keeping them constantly at a lower temperature like 55°F 24-7/365. Also raising their temps might lead to unusually fast growth rates which possibly causes shorter lifespans. Many Ts, such as our N.A. Aphonopelma sp. and several others, including G.rosea come from areas where there is a winter in the local environments they live in. Of course their burrow keeps them from freezing to death, but some studies I've read about somewhere point that the burrow temps may get down to 50°F causing a kind of "hibernation" period for them. These are the ones that seem to be breeding quite successful in the wild and most likely would benefit from a more natural temperature variation. My Aphonopelma's are quite the burrowers in the late fall and most will seal off the burrow entrance to keep the harshest of the "weather" out. Why not try keeping the Zebra without the heating? It is a more neo-tropical species than the above examples but if you've got you HVAC set in the mid 70's it is fine

 

[hillie16]

Well, if it were my choice the house would always be 75 or warmer, but she wants it cooler at night and sleeps in, and it's arm again by the time she wakes up....I, however freeze my cojones off in the morning getting ready for work when it has dropped into the low 60's in the house. Also gets VERY dry in the winter, I think the heat on the water side will help with humidty, as it is hard to keep it above 65% now as it is.

 

[Telson]

Personally, I'd do something to heat the tank if it's dropping to low 60's, but I'd be more inclined to use a heat lamp at a fair elevation above the tank along with a good thermometer inside the tank to monitor how warm it gets/stays, adjusting the hight of the lamp accordingly, and a red bulb, though I've not found out conclusively if the red bulb makes a difference over using a white bulb in regard to the T's activity cycles... The heater on the water side sounds like a good 2nd choice IMO though.

 

[Vys]

I think a heat mat at either far side would be a good idea, at least during nights. If it's small, it will only heat a small area around it, not the entire tank, of course, so the T has a choice as to where it wants to be. I can bet every coin I have you won't be seeing it on the cold side

My terrestrials look rather pathetic when I use heatmats in the winter..sort of hugging the tank where it's warm Cute though.

Fryslortar, 's what they are.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Valael
It'll slow their growth a little, but I'd assume that would mean an extended life, too. No evidence to prove that, though.

Yes & no. Sure, nobody's actually taken a bunch of tarantula sac mates and reared one half at an averate temp of 70F and another at 85F and compared when they died of old age. It is, however, an accepted principal in general with arthropods and has been demonstrated with numerous other types out there.

They have done actual studies on (NW) tarantulas in terms of how cool they can be kept before problems occurred, though. Once temps remain in the 50s the Ts sort of shut down and eventually die, but keep in mind that it was below 60F that was found to be harmful and only if for long periods.

 

[danread]

I definitely think heating is a good idea if the temperatures are what you decribed. Warmer temperatures means a more active tarantula, that feeds more and is generally more interesting. I have heat pads attached to the backs of the shelves my tanks sit on. As soon as the room temp drops a bit, all my Ts end up sitting on the back of the tank where the heat pad is placed, a sure indication to me that the extra heat is needed.

Cheers,

Dan.

 

[Mister Internet]

Originally posted by danread
all my Ts end up sitting on the back of the tank where the heat pad is placed, a sure indication to me that the extra heat is needed.

Does this really mean that they NEED it, or merely that they will, of course, PREFER it when the option is available? I know that if I'm given the choice of mid-autumn evening temps or a sit in the jacuzzi, I will go for the jacuzzi in a New York minute. Does Homo Sapiens require a jacuzzi? No, but if presented with the option, I'm likely to go with it, simply because it is more comfortable.

 

[Charlie]

Too Hot?

Has anyone ever considered the possibility that it could get a little too warm in the cage?

Tarantulas burrow to get away from heat don't they? So if it does get to the point that the Tarantula gets to hot it is probably going to burrow in closer to the heating pad defeating the purpose and possibly overheating.

I am not saying that this is a fact it is just something to consider. Maybe one of those heating rocks would be a better option.

-Charlie

 

[Mister Internet]

Re: Too Hot?

Originally posted by Charlie
I am not saying that this is a fact it is just something to consider. Maybe one of those heating rocks would be a better option.

Heating rocks are the devil. There is no application for heating rocks anywhere within the realm of responsible husbandry of ANY animals. They are nearly impossible to thermoregulate, and every brand is different.

I've found that inverts are pretty smart when it comes to moving towards/getting away from heat when they need to move. This is also why it is recommended to put heat mats, if used, on the sides of the tank and not the bottom, so they don't inadvertantly burrow right on top of the heat source.

 

[Code Monkey]

Re: Too Hot?

Originally posted by Charlie
Has anyone ever considered the possibility that it could get a little too warm in the cage?

Tarantulas burrow to get away from heat don't they? So if it does get to the point that the Tarantula gets to hot it is probably going to burrow in closer to the heating pad defeating the purpose and possibly overheating.

I am not saying that this is a fact it is just something to consider. Maybe one of those heating rocks would be a better option.

This is the rationale behind the recommendation that heating mats should be on the side or back of the cage and not the bottom. That way there is a definite heat gradient that allows the T to move about as it sees fit as oppose to possibly cause it's instincts to misfire and cooking the T.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Mister Internet
Does this really mean that they NEED it, or merely that they will, of course, PREFER it when the option is available? I know that if I'm given the choice of mid-autumn evening temps or a sit in the jacuzzi, I will go for the jacuzzi in a New York minute. Does Homo Sapiens require a jacuzzi? No, but if presented with the option, I'm likely to go with it, simply because it is more comfortable.

Yep, I hate the simple minded reasoning that if a T goes to the warmer side of the tank it must need it. There is no evidence they need any such thing, only that they've obviously been programmed by hundreds of millions of years of evolution to maximize their growth rates because the bigger the T, the bigger the choice of prey, the less chance of being the prey, and the greatest chance of dropping a huge, viable eggsac in the wild. In captivity, whether it takes my T 6 years to reach full size versus 3 years is of absolutely no significance and I much prefer the no hassle methodology of animal husbandry to the complicated voodoo that many others prefer.

That's what makes these things such good pets, they, in spite of newbie's nervousness, are nearly impossible to screw up.

 

[FelixA9]

Re: Re: Too Hot?

Originally posted by Mister Internet
Heating rocks are the devil. There is no application for heating rocks anywhere within the realm of responsible husbandry of ANY animals. They are nearly impossible to thermoregulate, and every brand is different.

I've found that inverts are pretty smart when it comes to moving towards/getting away from heat when they need to move. This is also why it is recommended to put heat mats, if used, on the sides of the tank and not the bottom, so they don't inadvertantly burrow right on top of the heat source.

I've never had a problem with a hot rock. I've got one in my tarantula cage. The rock is about a big as a paperback book and it's in a ten gallon aquarium. The spider loves it. It'll stretch out between the rock and the glass or sometimes it'll even be on top of it. Just depends what kind of mood it's in I suppose. Right now it's walled up the entrance to it's tunnel and has been in there for a couple weeks. As long as the rock isn't situated in a way that the spider can't get away from the heat I don't see what the problem is. They aren't so brainless that they'd sit on a hot rock and wait to burn to death. They'd move.

 

[danread]

I wouldn't call it 'simple minded reasoning'. As i'm constantly hearing, we know very little about Ts and how to actually keep them, therefore it makes sense to look for any clues in their behaviour that we can. I've no doubt that most Ts can survive and will live a long life kept at below sub-optimum temperatures, they just slow down there metabolism, behaviour and feeding regime to adapt and compensate. I've definitely noticed that at higher temperatures, my Ts are more active, do more webbing and feed more. In my opinion, seeing those behaviours more is more than enough compensation for the potential of a slightly shortened lifespan.

Dan.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by danread
I wouldn't call it 'simple minded reasoning'.

To take the fact that a T might do more to your perception and translate that observation to needing higher temps IS simple minded reasoning. If that's not what you meant, then you misquoted me because what I called simple-minded is a completely erroneous conclusion based on that evidence. There are ways to demonstrate need, but claiming that the increased activity level of an ectotherm is demonstrative of *need* is definitely not among them.

Ever taken some comparative physiology courses? You can pretty draw a nice straight line slope between metabolic rate and lifespans relative to mass. So, it's most likely not a slightly reduced life span, but a 1:1 proportionally reduced lifespan relative to how much their metabolic rate is increased over a lower temperature.

At any rate, I have nothing against people who keep their Ts at higher temps. They grow faster, they are more active, and they almost certainly die sooner (but since the cynic in me says that most people who get into Ts will lose interest long before their Ts begin to die of old age, probably not a relevant point anyhow).
My beef is with claiming there are benefits beyond those two things: grow faster and are more active, because that's the only thing there's evidence for.

 

[Mister Internet]

Re: Re: Re: Too Hot?

Originally posted by FelixA9
They aren't so brainless that they'd sit on a hot rock and wait to burn to death. They'd move.

Are you sure about that?

When I said they were "smart" about seeking heat, I meant smart as in "snappy" not smart as in "intelligent". They actually ARE sort of brainless, since they really don't have brains the way you and I think of it. In fact, MANY higher species including the higher reptilians will do just exactly what you describe... sit on a hot rock and wait to burn to death. I wish I could tell you how many Green Iguanas and Ball Pythons I've seen with THIRD DEGREE burns, or in the worst cases open necrosis, simply from laying on a heat rock unaware that it was being pureed alive. If these higher vertebrate ectotherms are unable to "discern" that a heat source is causing their bodies harm, I don't have much faith that a invertebrate ectotherm such as a tarantula would be able to either.

Are chances good that nothing bad will ever happen if you put a heat rock in with a T? Sure. Can you take that to mean it's a safe thing to do? Not a chance. You'll never find one in my centipede cages for the very reasons I listed above.

 

[minax]

And.........

Originally posted by Code Monkey

My beef is with claiming there are benefits beyond those two things: grow faster and are more active, because that's the only thing there's evidence for.

I agree, and well put code, and I would like to add that there is conclusive evidence that higher temps. make possible a much higher success rate in breeding and incubation. As per, Shultz and Shultz, and S. Marshall, temps above 78 F., and in most cases a median temp of 80 F., are much more successful than lower temps. And in some species, breeding is just not possible under lower temps. In fact, Shultz advocates heating not being necessary for houses in the low 70's, unless breeding is being attempted.