Heat Mat Discussion: Dehydration at Low Wattage?

[KaroKoenig]

This thread makes me curious. Let me quickly describe my situation:

Enclosure W40cm x D30cm x H30cm, inhabitant: juvenile/subadult female Chromatopelma. Before I got her, I was informed that this species does like it a degree or two warmer. Usually, in Europe (at least in the german-language areas), heating of enclosures is achieved as a side effect of the lighting, which also keeps the plants thriving.

I tried out the usual method, which is a 25W Halogen spot lamp set up at a safe distance over the top of the enclosure. However, I found the light to be extremely bright, and I read in the english-language literature that tarantulas absolutely hate bright light. But let's not get into this discussion right now - as far as I can see, this war has been fought across the atlantic for long enough with no winner. But another point against the spot is that I myself wasn't comfortable leaving a Halogen desktop lamp on during the day when no one is in the house. The case gets very hot, they are not made for running continuously and I didn't want to start a fire...

So, for lighting I used a 4W LED bulb, which doesn't emit a lot of heat, of course. The plants are doing just fine, and the light is way less glaring. My animal doesn't seem to care much. However, temperatures in the enclosure didn't exceed 21°C max, going down to about 18-19°C at night. So I'm at about the low end, and also the day-night cycle of temperatures isn't very pronounced.

So I bought a heat mat. It is a small one, about 15x15 cm, 5W max with a regulator. It is attached with thermoconductive tape to the top left corner at the back side of the enclosure. I tried it out before, and it reaches temperatures about 32°C directly on its surface when running at full power. So, counting in the heat losses through the back side, the tape and the dissipation through the glass, make that 27-28°C, roughly, at this spot. The heat mat is hooked up to the same timer that controls the lights, so it's off at night.

I let it run at about half power for a few weeks, and indeed I observed (a) that the overall temperature in the enclosure rose a degree and a half, but (b) that the spider started gravitating towards that heat source and set up shop between the branches next to the heated area during the day. At "dusk" and at night, she continued her usual behaviour of sitting in front of one of the two lower exits of her web tunnel, waiting for prey. She does have a water dish, and all in all, I saw her drink three times since I have her (August '19).

Then she went into premolt and closed off all entrances. Fearing dehydration, I started dripping a few drops of water into her web every once in a while, which she sometines drank, as far as I could see. Still, I do think it is unnatural behaviour for her to snuggle the warmed glass spot up above in the branches. So I switched off the heat mat and changed the light source to a 15W Halogen bulb in an Exo Terra lid laid on top of the tank - which seems to give a reasonable temperature in the whole enclosure.

Well... so much for "quickly describing the situation"... Anyway: I would like to hear opinions about heat mats. I have a feeling that everytime someone mentions the word "heat mat", some people jump to conclusions, at once imagine some 50W monstrosity (used for reptiles) and outright accuse that person of murdering their tarantulas.
I found that particularly irritating in the European scene, when those same people use halogen spots to create warmer and less warm areas in their tanks - and then happily describe their tarantulas sunbathing in that spot to take in some heat - or Avicularias building their nests right at the top under the lamp spot (where temperatures may well exceed 30°C).
The question is: is it really possible to dehydrate a tarantula - that knows perfectly well where her water dish is and uses it - with such a mild heat source as a half-powered 5W mat? Is the whole demonization of heat mats maybe an anachronism stuck in the minds of people from a time when super-low-power heat mats weren't a thing yet? Isn't the gravitating towards warm spots a sign that the mantra "if you are comfortable, your T is comfortable" might be not altogether true? And don't our spiders know bloody well what's good for them? As long as they have the choice between warmer and cooler spots, that is.

And just to make that clear: I am NOT ever considering putting a heat mat UNDER the enclosure.

 

[jrh3]

My opinion on a heat mat is simply this: If you do not use a thermostat with it you are asking for trouble. I see you have a regulator, but this is just a potentiometer. They are cheap and do not control the temp. They are simply a variable resistor and do not turn on and off.

Second, what live plants are in with the Chromatopelma ? They are Arid species so you could be keeping it too moist.

Its best to heat the room or build a micro room like heating a cabinet then you can regulate the temps in the cabinet.

 

[KaroKoenig]

The plants are small succulents with no sharp or pointy apendages and need no more than a few drops of water each - via pipette directly to their base every 4-5 days. Being succulents, they don't evaporate a lot, so the inside of the tank is pretty much bone dry.

The enclosures are located in our living/dining room area - a vast volume of air to heat for just two small glass tanks (I also have a juvenile Brachypelma hamorii). So that's not an option.

As I mentioned - the heat mat is off for the time being (better safe than sorry) and I tested it at full power before I attached it to the tank. It hardly deserves the name. It's more like a "warm" mat, not exceeding 32°C directly on its surface. On the glass inside, it added up to 27-28°C (80-82 F) on that spot. Overall temperature in the enclosure rose from 20 something (68 F) to 23-24°C (73-75 F).

Maybe moving my post from another thread has taken ist a bit out of context. My question was more a general one: Originally, I was reacting to a hypothesis that tarantulas are drawn towards warm - or even hot -places and there just sit, dehydrate and die. Which sounded a bit odd to me. Following that logic, Chromatopelma specimens in the wild (or most other tarantula genera, for that matter) would seek heat by day, i.e. stay outside in the desert air. Evolution would have made short work of such self-destructive behaviour, I reckon.

I totally get the warnings about strong heat mats anywhere near and especially lightbulbs IN the enclosure. What I do not get is the difference between a tarantula warming up under a halogen spotlight and a tarantula warming up near a heat mat. The halogen spot lamps I have seen produce much more heat than the 5W mat, and still keepers have made very good experience with them. Installing a low-power light and a very low-power heat mat, I actually followed more the US tradition, which seems to frown at exposing tarantulas to too much light (e.g. the Tarantula Keeper's guide).

 

[Andrea82]

Heat mats are fine, when properly installed. Which a lot of them aren't, hence the great antipathy against them because they fry the animal.
You can use a heat mat, just don't stick it to the enclosure and instead stick it to the cupboard/wall/closet the spider is in, leaving app. 2 cm space between the heat mat and the enclosure. I would still advise to use a thermostat though, just to be safe.
Heat mats and lighting are two of the Great Atlantic Battles, with housing space as a third

 

[cold blood]

Heat lamps are even worse than mats...lol.

 

[KaroKoenig]

Heat mats and lighting are two of the Great Atlantic Battles...

That sounds so epic!

...with housing space as a third

And plants. Plants!

 

[Andrea82]

And plants. Plants!

Really? Haven't noticed that yet. I guess Europeans like live plants and the US likes fake?

 

[KaroKoenig]

I guess Europeans like live plants and the US likes fake?

Seems that the frontlines are slightly more convoluted than that, as far as I can tell. In the german-speaking areas, live plants seem to be taken for granted at least since the early 1990s. Therefore, enclosures are of course lighted (not with heat lamps, as in "infrared" - that would be ridiculous), which usually is sufficient to keep a slightly elevated temperature as well. On Tarantula pictures taken in some eastern European areas, I noticed more abundance of fake plants. But my knowledge of that scene is just anecdotal, so take that observation with a grain of salt. Maybe if a polish or russian keeper reads this, he/she could chime in. In the US, most people feel strongly against live plants, as far as I can see.

Back to topic. What's up with that alleged suicidal behaviour of deliberately walking into the heat and then dehydrating? I have searched the backlog of threads here on AB, and so far, I have found lots of "they will seek the heat then stay there to dehydrate and kill themselves", but no real "they did seek the heat, then stayed there to dehydrate and kill themselves". I might have used the wrong keywords in my search (English is my second language), so someone please point me towards the evidence I missed.

I am not trolling or trying to be a smartass. I am genuinely curious about this. If such a behaviour were hardwired into tarantula nervous systems, I would find it surprising that tarantulas even exist to this day. I get the thing about too much heat overall, and especially heat sources under enclosures. Digging or retreating deeper into the ground to escape heat is nicely explainable by instinct. So far, so good. A tarantula on the surface doing the exact opposite - seeking warm (not hot!) spots over colder spots in the enclosure against their most basic survival instinct - just doesn't make sense.

One last word about my heat mat. The amount of heat it emits is so low, putting it even a cm away from the glass had no effect. I tried that. Then I loosely laid it on the top of the enclosure. Hardly any effect at all. Then I taped it to the top back. Result: described above. Heat mat is off and stays off for the time being.

What I find funny is that there seem to be lots of dedicated warriors sitting with clenched teeth in trenches on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as within the US and within Europe. Yet there are those who seem to not care at all: the tarantulas themselves. So far, I have found no evidence for any significant difference in life expectancy, adult size, number of offspring, percentage of losses in collections etc. on any side of the fence(s).

On second thought... nope, it's not funny at all. Especially for someone new to the hobby, trying to do research as widespread as possible. When you have run the gauntlet of german-language books and forum threads, you're already confused enough. Then you think to yourself: "Ok, let's see how the Americans do their thing". Oh my, you're in for a treat... . Everywhere you look, you're gonna find "Do this with your tarantula, or you will kill it. Because: reasons!" right next to "Do the exact opposite with your tarantula, or you will kill it. Because: reasons!", with an extra helping of "Do something completely different with your tarantula, or you will kill it. Because: reasons!".

 

[Mbranconnier]

I am new to the hobby and have a T. Albopilosum. She seems to crave heat sources as well. We just entered winter here in New England so it can sometimes be less than 20F outside. My home is extremely drafty unfortunately and her enclosure is on the side of the room near drafty windows. I noticed that when I first got her she was not active at all. She would stay on the side of the enclosure and press herself up against the wall closest to a space heater that I run when I am home and avoid her burrow. I had a small heating pad laying around and decided to place the tail end of it under the enclosure where her burrow is NOT located. Ever since then she has been a different girl. Much more active, uses her burrow and is laying silk all over the floor. This has worked for me and after monitoring her behavior and tank conditions I would say my method is not dangerous to her. Then again I only place the heater on when I know it will be frigid.

 

[Dry Desert]

Seems that the frontlines are slightly more convoluted than that, as far as I can tell. In the german-speaking areas, live plants seem to be taken for granted at least since the early 1990s. Therefore, enclosures are of course lighted (not with heat lamps, as in "infrared" - that would be ridiculous), which usually is sufficient to keep a slightly elevated temperature as well. On Tarantula pictures taken in some eastern European areas, I noticed more abundance of fake plants. But my knowledge of that scene is just anecdotal, so take that observation with a grain of salt. Maybe if a polish or russian keeper reads this, he/she could chime in. In the US, most people feel strongly against live plants, as far as I can see.

Back to topic. What's up with that alleged suicidal behaviour of deliberately walking into the heat and then dehydrating? I have searched the backlog of threads here on AB, and so far, I have found lots of "they will seek the heat then stay there to dehydrate and kill themselves", but no real "they did seek the heat, then stayed there to dehydrate and kill themselves". I might have used the wrong keywords in my search (English is my second language), so someone please point me towards the evidence I missed.

I am not trolling or trying to be a smartass. I am genuinely curious about this. If such a behaviour were hardwired into tarantula nervous systems, I would find it surprising that tarantulas even exist to this day. I get the thing about too much heat overall, and especially heat sources under enclosures. Digging or retreating deeper into the ground to escape heat is nicely explainable by instinct. So far, so good. A tarantula on the surface doing the exact opposite - seeking warm (not hot!) spots over colder spots in the enclosure against their most basic survival instinct - just doesn't make sense.

One last word about my heat mat. The amount of heat it emits is so low, putting it even a cm away from the glass had no effect. I tried that. Then I loosely laid it on the top of the enclosure. Hardly any effect at all. Then I taped it to the top back. Result: described above. Heat mat is off and stays off for the time being.

What I find funny is that there seem to be lots of dedicated warriors sitting with clenched teeth in trenches on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as within the US and within Europe. Yet there are those who seem to not care at all: the tarantulas themselves. So far, I have found no evidence for any significant difference in life expectancy, adult size, number of offspring, percentage of losses in collections etc. on any side of the fence(s).

On second thought... nope, it's not funny at all. Especially for someone new to the hobby, trying to do research as widespread as possible. When you have run the gauntlet of german-language books and forum threads, you're already confused enough. Then you think to yourself: "Ok, let's see how the Americans do their thing". Oh my, you're in for a treat... . Everywhere you look, you're gonna find "Do this with your tarantula, or you will kill it. Because: reasons!" right next to "Do the exact opposite with your tarantula, or you will kill it. Because: reasons!", with an extra helping of "Do something completely different with your tarantula, or you will kill it. Because: reasons!".

My friend - you will find most most US members on this forum feel strongly against Any advice given by Europeans, and as you are German ( I'm from UK ) we will both be fighting a loosing battle. I have been using heat mats , moonlight bulbs, ceramic heat lamps for the past 45 years in one form or another, depending on the invert in question, and God forbid I even have daylight bulbs ( on timers ) in some scorpion enclosures for the LIVE plants. Also I have heat mats along the full back length of WOODEN ENCLOSURES as per the fitting instructions supplied by PROREP with their heat mats and heat strips - the heat strips are especially designed for small tarantula enclosures - In all these 45 years I have never burnt my house down or any of my charges suffered in any way, on the contrary friends have commented on how things thrive so well and become large in comparison to others. Any animal will move to hotter or cooler areas in an enclosure as it wants. The only time there may be a problem is when the invert/reptile is kept in very small breeder containers and cannot move sufficiently to regulate it's temp. requirements.
If an invert wants to move to a warmer spot it will, and if it finds it nicely warmed up it will drink or go somewhere cooler - if able too - it's instinctive.
I know this post is in the Tarantula question section, however when people poo poo heat mats, ceramic lamps, bulbs of any description then it is a general topic and not dedicated to T keepers.
There are only 2 main problems with heat mats.
1. People that do not install the mats correctly ie. no air gap between tank and mat and most importantly no Good quality thermostat included in the installation.
2. The idiots that have never used heat mats but have had bad reports banded around by people on the likes of face book/ u tube.

As a ps. I have heat mats UNDER some enclosures - no more than 50% cover and no more than 5mm. of substrate and they are fine.

I will now sit back and await all the "dislike " ratings that come flooding in from across the pond as they normally do.

 

[Andrea82]

My friend - you will find most most US members on this forum feel strongly against Any advice given by Europeans, and as you are German ( I'm from UK ) we will both be fighting a loosing battle. I have been using heat mats , moonlight bulbs, ceramic heat lamps for the past 45 years in one form or another, depending on the invert in question, and God forbid I even have daylight bulbs ( on timers ) in some scorpion enclosures for the LIVE plants. Also I have heat mats along the full back length of WOODEN ENCLOSURES as per the fitting instructions supplied by PROREP with their heat mats and heat strips - the heat strips are especially designed for small tarantula enclosures - In all these 45 years I have never burnt my house down or any of my charges suffered in any way, on the contrary friends have commented on how things thrive so well and become large in comparison to others. Any animal will move to hotter or cooler areas in an enclosure as it wants. The only time there may be a problem is when the invert/reptile is kept in very small breeder containers and cannot move sufficiently to regulate it's temp. requirements.
If an invert wants to move to a warmer spot it will, and if it finds it nicely warmed up it will drink or go somewhere cooler - if able too - it's instinctive.
I know this post is in the Tarantula question section, however when people poo poo heat mats, ceramic lamps, bulbs of any description then it is a general topic and not dedicated to T keepers.
There are only 2 main problems with heat mats.
1. People that do not install the mats correctly ie. no air gap between tank and mat and most importantly no Good quality thermostat included in the installation.
2. The idiots that have never used heat mats but have had bad reports banded around by people on the likes of face book/ u tube.

As a ps. I have heat mats UNDER some enclosures - no more than 50% cover and no more than 5mm. of substrate and they are fine.

I will now sit back and await all the "dislike " ratings that come flooding in from across the pond as they normally do.

That's a load of crap. Opinions of Europeans are highly valued here. You just like to spout your nonsense and trolling everywhere you see fit.
@KaroKoenig
Please disregard anything that comes out of above user's mouth. If you take a look at his previous posts on the boards you can see what I'm talking about.

I'll wait for others to chime in about the heat attraction since I'm not from the US
@cold blood @EulersK and @Ungoliant can help with this

 

[EulersK]

My friend - you will find most most US members on this forum feel strongly against Any advice given by Europeans

This is simply false. Some of the most experienced users on this forum are European. Where there tends to be disagreements is in the use of heat mats - not because they are fundamentally unsafe, but because they are very easy and common to use in unsafe manners.

The large pet stores here in the US literally advise usage that can result in fires, so it's much easier for us to make blanket statements against heat mats rather than go into all the details of why they can be harmful. This is especially true given how resistant the vast majority of species are to cold temperatures. To your credit, you did state how to properly use a heat mat. But again, even large pet stores over here are woefully ignorant of proper maintenance.

What I will say is that this piece of information is wrong:

If an invert wants to move to a warmer spot it will, and if it finds it nicely warmed up it will drink or go somewhere cooler - if able too - it's instinctive.

You're right, they are instinctive. And a burrower's instinct is to burrow/move down when they are too hot. I have personally seen a fossorial cooked because it burrowed down and right on top of the heat mat. Again, improper usage of a heat mat, but heat wasn't required to begin with.

 

[Dry Desert]

This is simply false. Some of the most experienced users on this forum are European. Where there tends to be disagreements is in the use of heat mats - not because they are fundamentally unsafe, but because they are very easy and common to use in unsafe manners.

The large pet stores here in the US literally advise usage that can result in fires, so it's much easier for us to make blanket statements against heat mats rather than go into all the details of why they can be harmful. This is especially true given how resistant the vast majority of species are to cold temperatures. To your credit, you did state how to properly use a heat mat. But again, even large pet stores over here are woefully ignorant of proper maintenance.

What I will say is that this piece of information is wrong:


You're right, they are instinctive. And a burrower's instinct is to burrow/move down when they are too hot. I have personally seen a fossorial cooked because it burrowed down and right on top of the heat mat. Again, improper usage of a heat mat, but heat wasn't required to begin with.

Point 1. Not all inverts burrow or wish to burrow. Most on this forum bang on about T's as if there is nothing else in the animal kingdom.
Point 2. Yes you do tend to make several blanket statements over there, for example " room temperature will be fine ". What the hell is room temperature ?. Are we talking Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere. Hot rooms on either Hemisphere, cold rooms in either Hemisphere, rooms with central heating, rooms with no heating. Again a term that is banded around on an international forum with no real relevance other than several US states that have fairly constant year round temperature. This phrase of room temperature is fine, is the main reason why there are so many posts stating " My T, Scorpion etc. won't eat ". This is a world wide forum, not solely for US tarantula keepers. Therefore advice given on here is for a world wide audience.

 

[Vanisher]

Really? Haven't noticed that yet. I guess Europeans like live plants and the US likes fake?

You have to use luve plants that are not require any strong light. Preferable no light at all. There are a few, but not many

 

[EulersK]

Point 1. Not all inverts burrow or wish to burrow. Most on this forum bang on about T's as if there is nothing else in the animal kingdom.

You are currently on the Tarantula Questions subforum.

Yes you do tend to make several blanket statements over there, for example " room temperature will be fine ". What the hell is room temperature ?. Are we talking Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere. Hot rooms on either Hemisphere, cold rooms in either Hemisphere, rooms with central heating, rooms with no heating.

An extremely common phrase is "If you're comfortable, so is the spider." Which is absolutely true. A person isn't comfortable at 50F, nor are they comfortable at 100F. I've never seen a misunderstanding of the term 'room-temperature' to where one believed that simply because a room is sitting at near freezing temperatures, the room was therefore room-temperature. The phrase is understood to mean comfortable temperatures. Which is why when people are in the unique situations of lacking central heat/AC, they bring it up and we work from there.

I'm not sure why you're so aggressive about a topic that I mostly agreed with you on.

 

[Dry Desert]

You are currently on the Tarantula Questions subforum.



An extremely common phrase is "If you're comfortable, so is the spider." Which is absolutely true. A person isn't comfortable at 50F, nor are they comfortable at 100F. I've never seen a misunderstanding of the term 'room-temperature' to where one believed that simply because a room is sitting at near freezing temperatures, the room was therefore room-temperature. The phrase is understood to mean comfortable temperatures. Which is why when people are in the unique situations of lacking central heat/AC, they bring it up and we work from there.

I'm not sure why you're so aggressive about a topic that I mostly agreed with you on.

Therefore surely when giving advice on this forum, especially to new keepers a temperature range for that invert etc would be better. Everyone's perception of comfortable is different, and yes there are many cases of rooms in colder climates that have no heating, and the keeper is asking what temperature is required. Obviously the room ambient is way to low and as they are not comfortable but coping they need a temperature range for their invert.

 

[cold blood]

Therefore surely when giving advice on this forum, especially to new keepers a temperature range for that invert etc would be better. Everyone's

Then pay attention, because I've personally posted temperatures specifically at least a hundred times over the years on this website. I regularly state the temperatures anywhere between 68 and 92 are sufficient for most tarantula species.

 

[Vanessa]

What the hell is room temperature ?. Are we talking Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere. Hot rooms on either Hemisphere, cold rooms in either Hemisphere, rooms with central heating, rooms with no heating. Again a term that is banded around on an international forum with no real relevance other than several US states that have fairly constant year round temperature.

A very simple google search provides you with the answer.

"The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language identifies room temperature as around 20 to 22 °C (68 to 72 °F), while the Oxford English Dictionary states that it is "conventionally taken as about 20 °C (68 °F)"."

"Colloquially, room temperature is the range of air temperatures that most people prefer for indoor settings, which feel comfortable when wearing typical indoor clothing."

"room temperature
noun
a comfortable temperature range indoors, usually considered to be 68 to 77°F (20 to 25°C)."

"What is room temperature in Canada?
Go with the Standard: The accepted standard for summer is 20 degrees Celsius, while winter is 22 degrees Celsius. Try to adjust your thermostat for 22 degrees Celsius for winter in the living areas and a minimum of 17 degrees Celsius for occupied rooms at night."

"but the average range is anywhere from 68 to 76 degrees Fahrenheit"

" While living or working rooms should be around 20 to 22 degrees Celsius"

 

[Dry Desert]

A very simple google search provides you with the answer.

"The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language identifies room temperature as around 20 to 22 °C (68 to 72 °F), while the Oxford English Dictionary states that it is "conventionally taken as about 20 °C (68 °F)"."

"Colloquially, room temperature is the range of air temperatures that most people prefer for indoor settings, which feel comfortable when wearing typical indoor clothing."

"room temperature
noun
a comfortable temperature range indoors, usually considered to be 68 to 77°F (20 to 25°C)."

"What is room temperature in Canada?
Go with the Standard: The accepted standard for summer is 20 degrees Celsius, while winter is 22 degrees Celsius. Try to adjust your thermostat for 22 degrees Celsius for winter in the living areas and a minimum of 17 degrees Celsius for occupied rooms at night."

"but the average range is anywhere from 68 to 76 degrees Fahrenheit"

" While living or working rooms should be around 20 to 22 degrees Celsius"

That's fair enough Vanessa - Could I ask you - before I finally leave this forum FOR GOOD - to make this a " stickie " so when the new keepers come onto AB, whose rooms are way below 17 C at night and they are told by the many knowledgeable experts here " Don't use a heat mat for your T or you will burn the house down or kill the T." they have some sort of guideline to go from, and that correctly installed heat mats are fine,especially if they only have the one T and are starting out in the hobby.

 

[Ungoliant]

Could I ask you - before I finally leave this forum FOR GOOD - to make this a " stickie "

We don't generally "pin" discussion threads, because they quickly clutter the board, requiring you to scroll down excessively to get to actual new content. At most, if the initial post contains a lot of useful information, we index it in Tarantula Information for Beginners (and More).