German shepherd question

[Tleilaxu]

How do you tell if your German Shepherd actually likes you? He does not like to be held, petted, cuddled or anything else really. Or at the very least he has to be mouthy about it, gentle but mouthy. Only thing he really likes to do is play outside. He is nothing like my lab who likes to be held, petted, cuddled, ect ect. He certainly gives no thought to how you are feeling either. And everyone tells me how loyal and intelligent these guys are, and how they can read your mood, blah blah blah.

The dog Just turned one this January. Other than that he is a good dog. So how can I tell if this dog actually likes me. I certainly feel that we have no bond towards each other.

 

[Tleilaxu]

My German Shepherd.

Here is my German Shepherd Dog, his parents were imported from Czechoslovakia and both had won grand championships in the SVK and Schutzhund training.

Nevertheless His temperament is very good for a work-line breed, somewhat dominant, but not going to use fear or aggression to assert himself. Rather he is stubborn or tries to "deflect" this issue, via initiating play. (also very mischievous) Aside from not really liking me of course.

At 8/1/2 weeks

At 9 months and 82 pounds.

 

[Disquiet]

Awww!!! A prankish nature is highly desirable in dogs, IMO. If you resist training the personality out of him, you will have a wonderful, deep relationship for his entire life. Grain-free kibble or raw food is the way to go for longevity and general health, too.

I'm done preaching, have a great time together!

---------- Post added 01-11-2014 at 10:07 PM ----------

My experience is that male dogs have strikingly different personalities from females, and labs are well-known as more emotionally "in-tune" creatures as well--my lab craaaves "lovin'," for example, she can't get enough! In your situation, instead of trying to get him to do what you want, attempt to read his communications (despite not being able to speak, dogs can communicate quite effectively--I'm sure you pick this up with your lab) and form a relationship based on his needs--you say he is mouthy with cuddling; maybe he prefers rough-housing, build on that! Massive amounts of exercise at that age is also a good idea. Dogs, just like any other creature, have variable personalities within the breed/species/etc., maybe you ended up with a particularly independent and stubborn individual--there's value there too, just maybe a steeper learning curve.

I would, however, strongly discourage you from resorting to force, neutering, or discipline to garner the desired response from the animal; rather, let him tell you what he wants and needs from you and go from there. Give it time, the bond will grow as you begin to understand each other. It's a young relationship still, don't give up hope!

 

[Tleilaxu]

Im not a real novice with dogs, and am fairly tolerant of doggy behaviors, however I am frustrated that I can't seem to form a bond with him. (maybe he likes me and I don't see it) I want that deep bond that people talk about.

And he gets plenty of exercise, and all that jazz. I disagree with you on neutering, I certainly want him snipped, but that will be a decision that my family will have to make together.

And don't worry about me giving up on the dog, dropping him off at a shelter is not an option.

 

[Disquiet]

I want that deep bond that people talk about.

This is ALWAYS in the cards, it's just a matter of reading him as an individual. If he really disliked you--which I doubt, btw--you would see actual negative behavior, i.e. lack of eye contact, avoidance, tail between the legs at all times, etc. The dog in those pics seems pretty happy, maybe just with an independent or bratty streak--he's a kid right now too, so there are a lot of things to still be worked out.

And don't worry about me giving up on the dog, dropping him off at a shelter is not an option.

I would never think that--just encouraging you to think outside the box in terms of getting your relationship off the ground.

Neutering is a poor choice though--why do you want this to happen? If it's to calm the dog, it is for the wrong reason. If it were a vasectomy instead of a total removal, I would be in your camp, but removal of sex organs in their entirety screws up the dog's endocrine system to extents that we humans haven't even considered yet. Males that are neutered cannot produce testosterone and become emotionally and psychologically confused due to the abnormally high levels of estrogen in their system that they CANNOT balance. The hormonal feedback loop is disrupted--it does nothing for their health either. It is not a good management technique and I strongly urge you to do some research before having the procedure performed--and I don't mean asking a vet (who, after all, makes money on the procedure and receives kickbacks from organizations which support spaying and neutering), I mean looking into some peer-reviewed papers on human males who are unable to produce testosterone; the effect is similar in dogs. Keeping a close eye on him when he is around other dogs is a perfectly suitable alternative.

 

[Tleilaxu]

He contributes nothing for the betterment of the German shepherd breed. We have always spayed and neutered dogs for health reasons.

I think its also in our breeder's contract as well, but I would have to look to be absolutely sure. (it may simply be that we can't breed him without permission, and having raised young puppies by hand, an experience I don't want to relive again.)

Either way that's also not something that will be happening anytime soon.

 

[Disquiet]

He contributes nothing for the betterment of the German shepherd breed.

I really don't understand this statement, as IMO you should be more concerned about the health and happiness of the individual in your care, but, not being a breeder, I understand there are stipulations that must be followed. If you really MUST neuter, wait until the 2 year mark so he at least has some development under his belt, so to speak. Good luck.

 

[Tleilaxu]

I really don't understand this statement, as IMO you should be more concerned about the health and happiness of the individual in your care, but, not being a breeder, I understand there are stipulations that must be followed. If you really MUST neuter, wait until the 2 year mark so he at least has some development under his belt, so to speak. Good luck.

Of course, I agree, anyways that's what both the breeder and vet recommend. I certainly have no intent to breed.

And when I was researching German shepherd the authors of the books I had read all strongly mentioned that one should not breed any dog, unless it helps improve the breed in some way. That's where my statement comes from.

Either way lets get back to topic and not derail the thread

 

[Disquiet]

Oooh, I see. But you have to recognize also that the "contribute to the breed" perspective is very narrow--as is the perspective of vets who advocate spaying and neutering--they see soo many specimens that must be euthanized that they default to neutering and spaying because responsible husbandry is just too difficult to teach to the average idiot. It's my understanding that you are operating under different circumstances though, and may be forced to neuter--just offering my 2 cents.

My black lab is incredibly intelligent, both emotionally and otherwise, and while pure-bred, still does not display some of those traditional "contribute to the species" traits, which are IMO, shallow and meaningless and highly dependent on looks. Personality counts for nothing in the minds of breeders, but is everything in the minds of the rest of us. I really wish I would have bred her, not to contribute to the species, because I couldn't care less about that, but to preserve her (just as we humans preserve ourselves and each other through children). Again, just food for thought.

Anyways, sounds like your pup is in good hands and will have a good life--I'm sure you will connect with him eventually

 

[Smokehound714]

These dogs need to respect you, and you need to respect them. They're far more complex, mentally, than other dogs. Just give him time to mature and get "in synch" with you.


This is NOT a pet breed! They are bred specifically to be guardians and workers, and should be treated accordingly, which is why they're such great police dogs.

 

[The Snark]

I'm serious here. Are you an empath or do you know one?

 

[Shell]

What have you done to build the bond? It doesn't just happen. Having showed and trained labs for many years, they are a much more biddable, easy to bond with breed. Feed them they will fall madly in love with you.

A working dog requires much more to form a bond. The only one in my house with a true bond with Bruce (my doberman) is me, because I've spent countless hours training, trialling, and working him. He absolutely shows his love for me, all the time. It didn't come naturally though, we had to really from a solid partnership first, and working/training your dog actively (we do a couple hours a day) will help do that.

My current lab on the other hand, is bonded to anyone who even looks at her . Such is the nature of that breed, very different from a Shepherd.

 

[PlaidJaguar]

Shell is right; working line shepherds are more independent and tend to be less demonstratively affectionate. Just exercising isn't enough, these guys are smart with a capital S and they need to be mentally challenged.

Reward based training is the best way to satisfy that mental requirement. Note that some shepherds aren't terribly food motivated; you may have to get creative about rewards. Many shepherd trainers use tug toys or flirt poles to reward their dogs. (A flirt pole is basically a giant cat toy--looks like a fishing pole with a toy on the end) My PWD loves to chase me. If I take off running or start jumping around he gets super excited, and I use it for rewards a lot when training outside. I know a lady who uses a spray bottle to reward because her dog loves biting at the stream! Anything the dog likes can be used to reward them.

 

[Shell]

Exactly, it's all about finding what motivates the dog to want to work with you. I'm fortunate that Bruce is food motivated, so I make special training treats that are very high value, and he only gets them when we're working. Tug is often a great motivator for a working dog, as mentioned. I have quite a few Dobe friends who use tug as a motivator/reward. You can also easily make a flirt pole (I made mine out of a lunge whip (for horses) with a toy tied to the end). Once you find what really motivates your dog it will make the training and bonding come even faster.

Also, Bruce is mouthy when he's bored. He's been taught great bite inhibition so he's very gentle, but it's still a huge indicator that he needs to work/run/play. At a year old your boy is still a puppy, and a working line dog is typically much higher drive than, say, a Lab (and I've owned/trained a ton of Labs over the years, ranging from lazy to very high energy, but their drive still doesn't compare to a working line dog), needing much more in the way of exercise and training a day to keep them mentally satisfied.

 

[pitbulllady]

I will confirm what Shell and the Smokehound have already said; this is a serious working breed, developed to think on its own and make decisions that sometimes will not involve you. I'm used to this sort of dog, because Catahoulas are a lot like a working-line GSD. These are NOT dogs which will typically fawn all over you. They do not see you as "lord and master" but as a co-worker, a partner. They are naturally much more reserved in how they show friendship or affection than a Lab. You CANNOT compare the behavior and temperament of a working guard breed to that of a LAB; this is worse than comparing proverbial apples and oranges! Everything you described about this dog sounds like a typical working Shepherd. The question is, what are YOU doing to stimulate the working drive of the dog? It is, in my experience, a mistake to get an animal like this and expect it to be primarily a house pet and to act like a house pet. I learned from unpleasant experience never to sell Catahoula puppies to people who had no intentions of working them or hunting with them, because those dogs inevitably either wound up being brought back to me, usually after they'd already developed dangerous bad habits, or they wound up in a shelter. Often, the owner would blame the dog, even though I'd told them exactly what to expect. One of the most common complaints was that the dog "didn't love them", or "wasn't affectionate" or "ignored them". The dog was horribly bored, in actuality.

That said, I'm very much unsure as to what you meant, OP, by "he contributes nothing for the betterment of the German Shepherd breed". Unless he has an obvious structural flaw, like an underbite, or a genetic condition, I can't find fault with the dog. He appears to be a very sound and healthy and NORMAL specimen. I just think that you have an unrealistic expectation of what a GSD is supposed to act like, based on an entirely different breed that was created for an entirely different purpose. I am also one who has some problems with neutering a working dog unless the dog does have a serious flaw. I don't care what the spay/neuter fanatics claim, that DOES adversely affect the working drive of a male dog! There are no valid health reasons to neuter a male dog, unlike a female. In fact, neutering INCREASES the chances of prostate cancer(which is quite rare in intact male dogs), bone cancer and other orthopedic issues, especially ACL ruptures in large breeds. Male dogs don't experience a heat cycle, which can be messy, or have the risk of developing "false pregnancies", or worse, pyometras, or mammary tumors, and undesirable behavior in male dogs is nearly always a training issue, not a hormonal one! IF neutering were the "cure-all" it is touted to be, Cesar Milan wouldn't have had a job, because nearly all of the cases he deals with involve neutered rescue/shelter dogs, that have some of the worse behavioral problems imaginable. Getting a high-drive dog, one bred to work, and neutering it is rather like purchasing a Ferrari and removing its engine and replacing it with a four-cylinder Chevy Aveo engine or putting restrictor plates on it, so it can't go over 50 MPH. Whether or not that dog contributes to the population overall is up to YOU and your ability to control and contain the dog, because dogs aren't like gremlins, that reproduce spontaneously when they get wet or something. Now, if the breeder requires that to be done, then I guess you have to honor the contract, but I've owned many, many dogs over the course of my lifetime and I've never neutered a male dog, and I've never had one die from anything related to not having been sterilized. My last Catahoula died at the age of 17 years and 2 months, with both testicles intact.

pitbulllady

 

[Tleilaxu]

I see, so I have to look for different behavioral cues. Anyways we do tracking things activities, where I hide a toy or a treat and we have top then find it, along with basic running around out doors, along with fetch. When I walk him he always has his nose to the ground to take in the smells. So searching is a big favorite with him.

Either way thanks for the input. I will have to reevaluate what I look for in this doggy then.

 

[Shell]

I do a lot of nose work (tracking type stuff) with Bruce as well, and he thoroughly enjoys it. We are currently working towards our BH, so doing a LOT of obedience work, that's where we formed our bond, running obedience routines together, and it's still his favorite thing to work on with me.

When we walk we are usually also training, heels, recalls (we work a lot off leash as we live in a small town, on the lake), sit out of motion, down, stand, stays, leave it's, look at that, look at me, wait, touch etc etc. if I were to just walk him with no training incorporated he gets bored, and it doesn't work his brain enough. He loves training walks, and gets extremely excited when praised for executing a perfect string of commands. It keeps his focus on me, and allows our bond to get even stronger. Now don't get me wrong he also gets plenty of off leash run time, to just run and play and be a dog, but he thrives on the mental stimulation of training, as most working dogs do.

 

[cantthinkofone]

im sorry this may sound a small bit off topic but that is one adorable dog. just saying.

 

[Tleilaxu]

Oh he certainly is a majority of the time. I just don't feel though that he likes me personally, that is all. No other serious behavior issues, none. Though being away may have worked as for the first time ever after being gone for two weeks actually decided to lay down next to me and let me pet him for once. So maybe things are improving.

 

[PlaidJaguar]

Another thing you can try is hand feeding. Don't use a food dish, just offer his kibbles to him by hand, individually or a few at a time. If he walks away or fails to show interest in the food, just skip that meal and try again at his next regular meal time.

When I did this with my dog (to work on his mouthing issues) I parked in front of the TV, and it took about 20 minutes to feed his whole meal. Demo loved it.