Frog leg trade, salamanders used as fishing bait

[findi]

Frog leg trade, salamanders used as fishing bait - terrible news; helping to spread Chytrid & Ranavirus http://bit.ly/PgDyly http://bit.ly/1iqrUkA http://bit.ly/1h4kkXw

 

[Louise E. Rothstein]

Nobody thinks that "bait" animals are a health hazard because WE do not eat them.
So those "bait" salamanders are allowed in a common tub where just one of them can infect all of the others without anyone's knowledge:
Blissful ignorance holds because WE don't get sick.

It is surely easy enough to understand the disasters that follow.

What to do about it is harder to see.

 

[bugmankeith]

Plus it's just cruel.

 

[cold blood]

In most states its not legal....many its not regulated. Totally ignorant behavior...amphibians are not only struggling as it is with all the pesticide runoff and drugs entering waterways, but they act as ecological indicators, giving us warnings we wouldn't, or won't have when they are locally gone. When I was a kid, salamanders were easy to find, sadly even in seemingly very wild areas they are often quite difficult to locate. Amphibians for bait should be totally illegal and not tolerated, this isn't 1930 anymore, this archaic method should be altogether stopped.

What I have to say to people using these amphibians for bait is "LEARN HOW TO ACTUALLY FISH"

I can say, here in WI, I have never seen frogs or salamanders offered at bait shops, thankfully.

 

[viper69]

I think people who use them for bait should be used for Great White Shark bait

 

[The Snark]

Assuming the curmudgeon mode... I would point out that this, the problem of using amphibians for bait, is predominantly an American issue, narcissist and elitist. After all, fishing in America the vast amount of the time is purely entertainment. At best, a dietary supplement, not a necessity food source where anything goes to put the meal on the table.

PLEASE note, I do not include the members of AB. We care about animals and have legitimate concerns born or knowledge and reason.

 

[MarkmD]

I completely agree.. It's total ignorance to be using amphibians as bait, Whats the harm using the normal (worms or already dead fish parts) even none on the fly fish, cause no matter the part of the world it takes an animal out of its natural habitat thus potential harm for its ecosystem.

 

[cold blood]

Assuming the curmudgeon mode... I would point out that this, the problem of using amphibians for bait, is predominantly an American issue, narcissist and elitist. After all, fishing in America the vast amount of the time is purely entertainment. At best, a dietary supplement, not a necessity food source where anything goes to put the meal on the table.

PLEASE note, I do not include the members of AB. We care about animals and have legitimate concerns born or knowledge and reason.

WOW!! Narcissistic and elitist because we fish for entertainment and not food? Sorry snark, but this is an incredibly ignorant statement on so many levels.

First, I think you highly underestimate the number of people here that DO fish to feed their families. There are a ton of families who rely on fishing and hunting to feed their families. Now, you are right in the fact that many do not. But to refer to those that fish for sport as narcissistic and elitist is so far off that I really do not think you understand what being narcissistic means. And the word elitist has zero positive connotation, and I wish it would be removed from the general population's vocabulary. The term elitist only serves to segregate and put up artificial walls between people and serves nothing positive in almost any conversation. Its a way to look/talk down to others, nothing more.

By definition narcissism is defined as excessive or erotic interest in ones self...or extreme selfishness.

People releasing fish are the exact polar opposite, as they release fish for others to catch and enjoy. Its also playing a HUGE role in improving fisheries. Back when most here did fish strictly for food, our fisheries were in the same piss poor conditions as much of the rest of the world. Bad and getting worse every day. Since catch and release has become popular, everybody catches more fish, both those that release them, and those that need them. Which is important because our waterways are being used by more and more people every year.

There are only 2 countries where the fishing and health of fisheries has actually improved, often dramatically, in the past 30 years. They are also the 2 that have 1) the MOST sport fishing, and 2) the most heavily regulated fisheries providing the most comprehensive protection of fish and the water bodies themselves. 3) the only countries on earth where fishing is BETTER in every respect, for every species, than in was 30 or even 20 years ago. Continued improvement shows a total LACK of narcissism amongst the general population, as our waters are strictly managed for the health of the future, and NOT just for the present (as would be narcissistic). Those countries you ask? US and Canada. Because of our strict conservation laws and views, our current generation is enjoying what is currently the "golden age" of fishing. Fishing today is light years better than when I was a kid, once in a lifetime fish then, are now literally commonplace.

On the other hand, those that fish entirely for food and need it to survive are actually by definition, acting in a more narcissistic manner, as they continue to deplete and destroy waterways for themselves and the current generations, leaving waste for the future or simply not regarding the future at all.

Look at the species of giant catfish for instance, like the Mekong giant, whose waterways have been raped continually with almost no regulation (nets strung across rivers catching and killing everything they contact), whose waterways are not as clean as my toilet water, whose much needed fish migration routes are simply cut off for mans benefit. It is easier to exploit fish populations when they are constantly trapped by dams and nets. That my friend, is classic narcissistic behavior, knowing full well you are destroying something possibly forever, and doing NOTHING because the results benefit people NOW. There's almost nothing that can save this catfish at this point...someday, possibly soon, it WILL be extinct.

Even in England and Ireland it happened. 30 years ago it was a destination place to fish for some of the biggest, fattest, most beautiful pike in the world. But catch and release never caught on with pike (they do release their rough fish), and almost all the giants were selfishlessly harvested without future considerations.. Result is that their once amazing pike fishery has been decimated and is no longer a shadow of what it was in the 80's. Decimated because people just had to kill every one, now people go there to vacation, but not to fish anymore, because it wasn't cared for and has collapsed as a result. Again, narcissistic behavior, living in the now and ignoring the future. The views have since changed a bunch (like ours have), but pike are not an often targeted species as they chose to prefer carp and other rough fish, which are treated crazy good upon their release...often anglers apply iodine to the place where the fish was hooked to prevent infection and ensure the fish's health.

I would bet that there isn't an Asian or south American country (aside from japan) that does anything to regulate what is used for bait. I saw something once about a guy in S. America using baby green anacondas for catfish bait....you would go to jail for something like that if you tried that ignorant behavior here.
Like I said, many states here do not allow the use of amphibians for bait, which means every one of those states cannot be any kind of an issue as it just doesn't happen. To even think that amphibians are a common bait in the US is just plain wrong....its EXTREMELY rare, even where it is legal. In 40+ years on the water, almost daily, I have seen someone using frogs on only one single occasion, and it was about 25 years ago. I have never seen a bait shop even sell them either.

When it comes to natural resources, MUCH has changed in the US over the past 30 years and the results have been simply amazing. In the 70's (I think), lake erie was so polluted that the water actually started on fire. The fishery was all but gone....today its a world class fishery for perch, walleye, and smallmouth bass. We have leaned a lot and adapted that knowledge for the good of the future, more than the present....an anti-narcissistic movement to say the least. And its far from the only story like that.

I release 99% of my fish, because I flat out care about them, their overall health and the health of each fishery and because its important for future generations to be able to experience what I have been blessed to experience. Am I elitist or narcissistic because I don't eat them...because I care about the future, because I want my nephew to grow up and be able to enjoy nature....Only if you don't understand the definition, I guess.

You say "I do not include the members of AB. We care about animals and have legitimate concerns born or knowledge and reason"....so we care more than fishermen? We care more about spiders than fishermen, that where you can draw the line, period. Most fishermen, ESPECIALLY ones fishing purley for sport, are PASSIONATE about the fish they catch, EVERY BIT as passionate as AB members are about their tarantulas...I know, because I play for both sides so to speak, as they are two of my biggest passions. I am around a ton of different fishermen, and please don't discount their incredible passion.

 

[BobGrill]

Yeah I have to agree with cold blood here. Also snark with all due respect, you don't even live in the U.S., so I cant exactly believe everything you're saying. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm sure you do your research, but its not the same as living here.

On topic: using salamanders and frogs as bait is something I could never do. I actually read about this in a really old book about fishing in which common types of freshwater
Live bait were featured. I was rather surprised to read that people actually did this.
Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

 

[viper69]

I agree with CBlood.

Now, I'm going to back up the Snark, even though he threw me under the bus recently (no I didn't forget!!) in this context. Anyone who has read a lot of his posts knows he's pretty balanced in his info usually. And, like many of us doesn't always present ALL info for a balanced response. Snark has never said for example that the Chinese are the world's best example of wild life conservation, he's said just the opposite, nor has he said the Japanese are the world's leaders in dolphin protects haha..


However, Snark, because you didn't balance out your comment, I'm sure you expected a response/s like these to come forth hahahah.. I think I see pitchforks and fire torches in the immediate distance

 

[The Snark]

I agree with CBlood.

Now, I'm going to back up the Snark, even though he threw me under the bus recently (no I didn't forget!!)

I throw lots of people under buses, myself included. Why should you be any different?

 

[MarkmD]

I throw lots of people under buses, myself included. Why should you be any different?

You've not throwing me under the bus just yet, probably do that myself lol, was joking trying to lighting the mood

 

[The Snark]

I'm going to take a back seat to this now. Someone(s), please feel free to enlighten me. I've seen the Coho vanish, and the steelhead. And now the chinook. Worked at a trout farm for a time. Studied various stuff at HSU's aquaculture projects. Done streambed reparation. Helped protect raparian area destructions. Watch the natives slaughter the few spawning salmon. Waited for 12 years for a dam to get removed. (6 more to go on just that one river.) Seen and done catch and release. Chummed it up with F&G, even helping them enforce the laws. Barbless flies only above the river crossing. Chumming anyone? Dynamite? Blah blah blah.

And of course the anal orifices here, spraying glyphosate directly on the rivers to make spear gun fishing easier. More gill nets than I can believe sometimes. And more blah blah blah.

And in the time I've taken to write this garbage, how many dozens more people have starved to death? Sorry, hundreds. Some forbidden to hunt or fish because of high and mighty politicians hundreds of miles away and millions of dollars.

Naw. Bring me up to speed here. But try to tell me something that isn't month old news. Amphibian bait? Bad news ultra trivial peanuts, comparatively speaking. Show me otherwise.

 

[cold blood]

Assuming the curmudgeon mode... I would point out that this, the problem of using amphibians for bait, is predominantly an American issue, narcissist and elitist.

If its so inconsequential, why make this accusation that its an American issue.....clear as a bell you say it and name call while you do. You are the one that took something so "trivial" as you put it, as amphibian bait, and turned it into a political attack on Americans specifically. I don't know what the motivations were exactly.

Sport fishing also feeds tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people by employing them. The fishing industry puts food on many a table, without actually taking from the fisheries themselves. The professional industry also gives back huge $$ for conservation every year. Without these sport fisheries, the economic impact would be quickly catastrophic locally.

Now it seems like you are upset because there are people starving to death (how you got there from fishing bait, I dunno). That's terrible no doubt, but its also a fact of life on an overpopulated planet. As sad as it is, there has always been and will always be famine somewhere, but with dead fisheries it will undoubtedly occur at an even higher rate, do you not agree? Everyone that needs fish for food, should thank all the people that fish that don't and release fish back for them to grow and be caught by those "in need". Every fish I kill, is one less for the guy who's family may need it and one good angler can catch a lot of fish in a short time. If everyone that fished took all they caught, fish would be extinct, or at the least would be well below "fishable" levels, its just not a possibility for sustaining a critical resource.

We loose everything if we fail to maintain sustainability of any natural resource! If regulations are set, its for a reason, to sustain and maintain what's there for the future. If all the fish were cleaned from the lakes/rivers by this generation in an effort to save everyone from starvation, the entire following generation would starve and suffer at a significantly higher rate. Some sacrifice today, for the good of tomorrow...sad but true.

People all over the world are concerned with starving people, and many of those that can help, do...even elitist Americans, but even Americans are starving to death. Children not having enough food is a current hot issue as its occurances become more and more common. We ain't all rich slobs over here letting fish go, while we laugh at starving people in other countries, if you know what I mean.

We have a great salmon/steelhead fishery in the great lakes and currently the best brown trout fishery in the world. I personally put over 500lbs on the pier in one single afternoon last year (but my elitist self released them)....Pacific NW salmonid fishery remains strong, with one species of steelhead making a 1200 mile trip inland into Idaho and Montana. Where was the crash of coho/steelhead you spoke of? Are you thinking of BKD that took its toll on chinook many years ago?

Snark, I must be honest, this is the first time I have found myself disagreeing with anything you wrote. Normally I am right there with you. I think our perspectives on this subject are either misunderstood or just coming from completely differing angles. Thank you for your work in the field, especially repair of riparian zones and streambed repair, very important, often labor intensive work, no doubt.

 

[The Snark]

Do yourself a favor, cold blood. Read up. As but one tiny example, http://www.epa.gov/wed/pages/staff/lackey/pubs/illusion.htm#current
Or put in the search 'spawning grounds loss'. I'm not going to hold your hand, or point out the devastation, loss of livelihood, loss of jobs, loss of watershed, loss of revenue, while in many places strident demands are made for the sport fishing to remain untouched using arguments exactly like you voice.

Certainly the improper baits used is helping spread Chytrid & Ranavirus. But compare that to say, hexamitiasis that has completely wiped out the entire years production of sizable fish hatcheries.

BTW cold blood, could you answer a couple of simple questions: How many raparian restoration operations have you visited or been directly involved in and what mitigation efforts have you assisted in restraining the nefarious diesel powered termites? Just to get some idea you aren't a popular noise theorist and have hands on knowledge.

 

[cold blood]

BTW cold blood, could you answer a couple of simple questions: How many raparian restoration operations have you visited or been directly involved in and what mitigation efforts have you assisted in restraining the nefarious diesel powered termites? Just to get some idea you aren't a popular noise theorist and have hands on knowledge.

I worked in the Natural resources field for over a decade, fisheries specifically. Only been directly involved in one restoration project...the Root river, but have watched others (I had other work to do). Dams here on great lakes tributaries are being torn down every year to provide more natural rivers. And our spawning is not even successful!

Ocean going fisheries, like the one you point out, are not being devastated or harmed by the baits being used, that's ridiculous. Look at every fishery that's inland...,you know ones we actually have some real control over and the ones where amphibians as bait might ACTUALLY be used, even if it is a rarity. Our Great lakes salmon and steelhead strains all came from hatcheries in the pacific northwest. Any decline over there has no bearing on bait usage, which is the subject at hand. Ocean living species roam beyond control. Inland is where you would see amphibians as bait being used, if at all. My home Great lakes fishery is excellent, although completely artificial. Upon reading your provided info regarding the pacific NW salmon/steelhead fishery I notice a few things. First, just about all of the issues mentioned are OLD issues (many from the 1800 and early 1900's). Issues either not in play or, in the case of water quality, dams or overharvest, issues being improved or eliminated yearly. One of the biggest factors is beyond our control, and that's weather. This is from your article, under the heading "causes of decline".....

"Oceanic factors play an important role in salmon production on both sides of the North Pacific ocean. For example, the long term pattern of Aleutian low pressure weather system appears to correlate with the trends in salmon run size. On shorter time scales, and depending on the species of salmon, stock, where individuals in the stock spend the majority of their ocean life, el nino and la nina events have detrimental or favorable effects."

Also noted was that stocking supplements the losses. Bait is not a concern...so why was it even brought up in relation to amphibians for bait?

I just want to know why you chose to attack Americans and blame them for worldwide bait misuse. You specifically pointed out that amphibs as bait are an American issue. Which is the subject at hand that you completely choose to ignore. You go from amphibians as bait are an American issue, to focusing on a fishery where amphibians would NEVER be used as bait, ever.

 

[findi]

Thanks for all the feedback on the ridiculous comment re fishing in the USA..a highly complex subject - incredibly more so if, even were it possible, if the writer considers the rest of the world and all the related abuses and good work that goes on everywhere. I have worked in conservation, both in the field and for major zoos and museums, for nearly 40 years - here in the USA and on several continents, and, on have otherwise been involved (off site) with a huge array of projects in dozens of countries, and know of what I speak. Unfortunately, this type of surface-oriented shoot-from-the hip commentary pervades many disciplines these days. Best, Frank Indiviglio

 

[Smokehound714]

This is why i prefer tossing artificials instead of bait.


aside from chytrid and other diseases, many alien species become introduced into habitats that cannot handle them due to people dumping live bait.


pet owners are also to blame here, too, though, unfortunately.. a few lakes nearby now have alligator gar, pacu, enormous plecos, and many other species.

 

[findi]

This is why i prefer tossing artificials instead of bait.


aside from chytrid and other diseases, many alien species become introduced into habitats that cannot handle them due to people dumping live bait.

pet owners are also to blame here, too, though, unfortunately.. a few lakes nearby now have alligator gar, pacu, enormous plecos, and many other species.

Yes, thanks...Florida has dozens of introduced species, weatherfish and northern snakeheads in NY; African clawed frogs are established in s. Califronia, eat virtually all eggs and tads of some native species in certain habitats...best, Frank

 

[jecraque]

While I've never personally seen salamanders sold as bait in bait shops (probably relevant: I'm not known to frequent bait shops), I can attest to the familiarity with which local fishing enthusiasts in my area (which would include bits of NC/TN/GA/SC) greet any acknowledgment of the practice. It's my understanding, although I haven't checked, that this is a practice that is illegal in all four nearby states but continues due to poor enforcement. It doesn't seem to be hugely prevalent, and is increasingly frowned upon among locals and seasonal sport fishermen I come across*, but it continues.

My area also happens to be quite conducive to sport fishing, so I'm told, and given the mass migration of fishermen to local waterways (both stocked and native) I am inclined to assume that some considerable degree of disturbance occurs as a result of many facets of the hobby, whether it's release of nonnative live bait (or pets), residual impacts of past and present stocking, unsustainable hatchery practices, use of gear that can trap microbes including possible pathogens (or neglecting to clean gear at all between uses), or even the small-scale impacts of having a bunch of people shuffling around in waders stirring up silt at certain times of year. It's not a zero-sum game; we probably will never trace the spread of many pathogens back to the original source and minimizing/eliminating a single source of contamination shouldn't come at the expense of other conservation efforts (limited budgets notwithstanding). It's also not a zero-sum game to compare progress in conservation with progress in other areas (again, limited budgets notwithstanding). Humans can, in theory, work on world hunger at the same time as we work on conservation and curing AIDS and improving literacy rates in impoverished neighborhoods and whatever else people generally do to make the world a better place. At the same time, people are insufferable, awful creatures, so, there's that too.

Mostly I just wanted to mention that Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation (PARC), which Frank talked about in his links, is a really worthwhile organization and is free to join. Here's a link: http://www.parcplace.org/about-parc/join-parc.html?view=form

*I joke about having zero interest in sport fishing because it is true, but I also don't want to give the impression that my social circle contains no sport fisher-folk. I also fairly frequently work with aquatic macroinverts, during which I encounter a lot of less-local vacationing types in the water. It would be both unfair and untrue to state unequivocally that the use of amphibians as bait isn't widespread enough to pose a problem.