First true spider

[snarf]

Well after years of keeping scorpions and tarantulas I have finally ordered a couple linothele sericata I'm super excited! It's odd there isn't a lot of information on them how large do they get? I'm in hopes they help me branch out with what I keep I've been meaning to find some trap door spiders for giggles but so far have not.

 

[Wolfram1]

those are not "true spiders", still mygalomorphs

 

[PhoenixFyre]

those are not "true spiders", still mygalomorphs

As someone that is learning...what exactly classifies a spider as a 'true spider'?

I see the term often and have been wondering.

 

[snarf]

Ahh so technically speaking its a tarantula?

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

As someone that is learning...what exactly classifies a spider as a 'true spider'?

I see the term often and have been wondering.

Araneomorphs and Mygalomorphs are two separate infraorders within the order Araneae. Araneomorphs are the ones referred to as "true spiders". It's a separate evolutionary line.

Ahh so technically speaking its a tarantula?

No, technically only the Theraphosidae family (not to be confused with the Theraphosa genus) are tarantulas, but the word tarantula is often more broadly interpreted and in some languages and regions may refer to other spiders. In this forum, when we talk about tarantulas, we mean Theraphosidae. There are other non-tarantula families of Mygalomorphs.

 

[Wolfram1]

Araneomorphs and Mygalomorphs are two separate infraorders within the order Araneae. Araneomorphs are the ones referred to as "true spiders". It's a separate evolutionary line.



No, technically only the Theraphosidae family (not to be confused with the Theraphosa genus) are tarantulas, but the word tarantula is often more broadly interpreted and in some languages and regions may refer to other spiders. In this forum, when we talk about tarantulas, we mean Theraphosidae. There are other non-tarantula families of Mygalomorphs.

nicely put, i was in the process of writing a confusing mess in comparison

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

nicely put, i was in the process of writing a confusing mess in comparison

to be fair, taxonomy in general tends toward confusing messiness

 

[Wolfram1]

to be fair, taxonomy in general tends toward confusing messiness

agreed

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

Well after years of keeping scorpions and tarantulas I have finally ordered a couple linothele sericata I'm super excited! It's odd there isn't a lot of information on them how large do they get? I'm in hopes they help me branch out with what I keep I've been meaning to find some trap door spiders for giggles but so far have not.

Also, congratulations! Exciting to branch out to animals with different behaviours and needs regardless of taxonomy

 

[PhoenixFyre]

Oh thank you! I looked it up and read about their fangs - how interesting!

 

[Thearachnidaddict]

Get the serricata then after that you should get some phoneutria,atrax, and hydronyche all are great for starting out on non theraphosid spiders

 

[snarf]

You have got to be pulling my leg with those suggestions I do love the way atrax robustus looks but I'm not that nuts lol

 

[RezonantVoid]

Get the serricata then after that you should get some phoneutria,atrax, and hydronyche all are great for starting out on non theraphosid spiders

Funny thing is, the last 2 are actually easy to start with as long as you're cautious enough

 

[snarf]

Tempting but I think I should start with something with weak venom is there anything that looks like atrax with weak venom?

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

As someone that is learning...what exactly classifies a spider as a 'true spider'?

I see the term often and have been wondering.

I see @Albireo Wulfbooper already answered with a definition of 'true spider' that is used most commonly, and will help figuring out what people are talking about, but unfortunately the common usage of the term doesn't make any sense from a taxonomic point of view .

A true spider is any arachnid of the order Araneae, not just the infraorder Araneomorphae. This includes both spider infraorders Mygalomorphae and Araneomorphae (suborder Opisthothelae) as well as the suborder Mesothelae (segmented trapdoor spiders). This makes more sense when you consider other arachnid orders that use the word 'spider' in their common names. For example, a spider of the family Pholcidae (cellar spiders) are sometimes called 'daddy long leg spiders', but the common name is also used for the harvestmen (arachnid order Opiliones) as well. The one from the family Pholcidae (order Araneae) is the 'true spider' while the other is not. Another example is the camel spiders (order Solifugae). Since they are not actually spiders, they can't be considered 'true spiders.' Thus the term 'true spider' is a way to specify a spider from another type of arachnid when two different arachnid orders use the word 'spider' in their common name.

 

[Wolfram1]

I see @Albireo Wulfbooper already answered with a definition of 'true spider' that is used most commonly, and will help figuring out what people are talking about, but unfortunately the common usage of the term doesn't make any sense from a taxonomic point of view .

A true spider is any arachnid of the order Araneae, not just the infraorder Araneomorphae. This includes both spider infraorders Mygalomorphae and Araneomorphae (suborder Opisthothelae) as well as the suborder Mesothelae (segmented trapdoor spiders). This makes more sense when you consider other arachnid orders that use the word 'spider' in their common names. For example, a spider of the family Pholcidae (cellar spiders) are sometimes called 'daddy long leg spiders', but the common name is also used for the harvestmen (arachnid order Opiliones) as well. The one from the family Pholcidae (order Araneae) is the 'true spider' while the other is not. Another example is the camel spiders (order Solifugae). Since they are not actually spiders, they can't be considered 'true spiders.' Thus the term 'true spider' is a way to specify a spider from another type of arachnid when two different arachnid orders use the word 'spider' in their common name.

i totally agree that that would make much more sense but i always assumed the way it is commonly used is the correct one since in "german" the two groups are called "Echten Webspinnen (Araneomorphae)" which roughly translates to "true webbing-spider" and "Vogelspinnenartige (Mygalomorphae)" which roughly translates to "tarantula-like spiders"

calling all spiders "true spiders" would make much more sense but as far as i have seen it is used differently almost all the time, are you sure that this is wrong, i would gladly start using it for the order Araneae instead

 

[RezonantVoid]

Tempting but I think I should start with something with weak venom is there anything that looks like atrax with weak venom?

You can't get either Atrax or Hadronyche outside Australia anyway.

Ischnothele and Euagrus might be some options to consider, most other mygalomorph families have very cool species

 

[Wolfram1]

maybe i phrased that in a confusing way, to clarify:

obviously all members of the order Araneae can be cosidered true spiders while other arachnids that include the name spider are not, as you correctly pointed out, but at the same time i assumed "true spiders" was in use as the shortened version of the translation "true webbing-spiders", as in a "name" not the meaning of the words

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

i totally agree that that would make much more sense but i always assumed the way it is commonly used is the correct one since in "german" the two groups are called "Echten Webspinnen (Araneomorphae)" which roughly translates to "true webbing-spider" and "Vogelspinnenartige (Mygalomorphae)" which roughly translates to "tarantula-like spiders"

calling all spiders "true spiders" would make much more sense but as far as i have seen it is used differently almost all the time, are you sure that this is wrong, i would gladly start using it for the order Araneae instead

As I stated, you defined 'true spider' as it is commonly used correctly, you are not wrong. It is just that the way it is commonly used makes absolutely no sense. Even if 'true spider' is short for 'true webbing spider', it still wouldn't make sense because a mygale produces silk just the same as an araneomorph. One infraorder doesn't produce web in any more 'truer' a way than the other. Even different families in the infraorder Araneomorphae don't use silk in the same way, or even produce the same type of silk, so why designate a special term for one infraorder? One of the primary characteristics of the Araneae which distinguish it from the other arachnid orders is the ability to produce silk which make the whole order the true spiders.

One can use the same line of reasoning for the common name 'false tarantula' for the species Calisoga longitarsus (family Nemesiidae). If there is a false tarantula, then what is a true tarantula? A spider of the family Theraphosidae perhaps? If so, what about the species Lycosa tarantula (family Lycosidae), a wolf spider? Why would a theraphosid be a 'true tarantula' when there exists a spider which uses the word 'tarantula' as its species epithet? Even further, Linnaeus in 1758 named the wolf spider Aranea tarantula (=Lycosa tarantula) and the tarantula Aranea avicularia (=Avicularia avicularia) in the same work. Makes more sense to call the spider Lycosa tarantula the 'true tarantulas'!

 

[ForTW]

You're actually right. Here in Europe Wolf spiders are called tarantulas. And lyvosa tarantula is "the true tarantula".

We seperate labidognath and orthognath spiders and the term "true Web spiders" got adopted.