Ethics of keeping vinegaroons

[Flammendehaar]

I have been very seriously considering getting a vinegaroon. However, where I am, I cannot see any that are captive bred, and I understand that is typically the case in most places.

It's got me seriously pondering the ethics of getting one.

I know in the US they are quite plentiful but I don't think the full extent of their conservation status is fully known, is it? I had been looking at a red back Asian variety due to the smaller size, but that would leave me even more concerned about buying an animal from a potentially unethical source, and contributing to the destruction of ecosystems. None are listed as endangered as far as I can tell, but that isn't saying much when they aren't well studied.

I know in my care I would give a vinegaroon the best life I possibly could, but I want to know what others think. For this species in particular, what is your ethical outlook on keeping them in the hobby, when so many are wild caught?

 

[l4nsky]

Simple, if you're not going to attempt to breed them and further the captive population, then wait for CBB to become available.

 

[Tentacle Toast]

With each passing day, I care less & less with the traditional "ethics" of the supply chain. Fauna AND Flora will be pushed to the absolute brink, dwiddled down to a handful of specimens specific to a handful of metres squared; never has a life form been more "threatened," "endangered." The competent hands of hobbyists & collectors are absolutely FORBIDDEN from having a hand in their potential salvation at this point, THAT'S FOR THE PROFESSIONAL INSTITUTIONS...that have a dearth of either interest &/or funding to adequately intervene, or better yet, runs afoul of an SSP in some twisted feat of (anti)logic already in place, because of the nonsensical "ethics" whipped in. So, good...GREAT...the species is protected ("protected"). Except for the fact that develo-corp just bought the land, it's going to be cleared (or better yet strip mined, because a super rare mineral for the latest eco technology has been discovered just below) & a resort, or private cattle ranch for a chain burger joint, or a billionaire's bunker is going in its place, "protected" species BE DAMNED!
It's taken the forced swallowing of A LOT of bitter pills to arrive at this sentiment, but it's my mentality now. If you're REALLY worried about it, go all the way, & take the steps necessary to BE the "responsible" captive supply. In a capable first-world with populations in at least the hundreds of millions, you're not alone, or won't be for long, if by off-chance you are.
I never dreamed I'd become this jaded in my reasoning & rationale, but NEVER has legislation been so unanimously one-sided, corrupt, AND corruptible -the world over. Focus on YOUR OWN ethics, & do right by the species as a whole.
"what's right isn't always popular, & what's popular isn't always right"
"if a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so"
"be the change you wish to see in the world"

 

[spideyspinneret78]

With each passing day, I care less & less with the traditional "ethics" of the supply chain. Fauna AND Flora will be pushed to the absolute brink, dwiddled down to a handful of specimens specific to a handful of metres squared; never has a life form been more "threatened," "endangered." The competent hands of hobbyists & collectors are absolutely FORBIDDEN from having a hand in their potential salvation at this point, THAT'S FOR THE PROFESSIONAL INSTITUTIONS...that have a dearth of either interest &/or funding to adequately intervene, or better yet, runs afoul of an SSP in some twisted feat of (anti)logic already in place, because of the nonsensical "ethics" whipped in. So, good...GREAT...the species is protected ("protected"). Except for the fact that develo-corp just bought the land, it's going to be cleared (or better yet strip mined, because a super rare mineral for the latest eco technology has been discovered just below) & a resort, or private cattle ranch for a chain burger joint, or a billionaire's bunker is going in its place, "protected" species BE DAMNED!
It's taken the forced swallowing of A LOT of bitter pills to arrive at this sentiment, but it's my mentality now. If you're REALLY worried about it, go all the way, & take the steps necessary to BE the "responsible" captive supply. In a capable first-world with populations in at least the hundreds of millions, you're not alone, or won't be for long, if by off-chance you are.
I never dreamed I'd become this jaded in my reasoning & rationale, but NEVER has legislation been so unanimously one-sided, corrupt, AND corruptible -the world over. Focus on YOUR OWN ethics, & do right by the species as a whole.
"what's right isn't always popular, & what's popular isn't always right"
"if a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so"
"be the change you wish to see in the world"

Sadly you're not wrong. In the past I worked on a project where we bred endangered birds in captivity then released them back into their natural habitat. Sadly the local government sold this previously protected sensitive habitat to developers for extra $$$. Within a year the marsh where many of these birds lived was dredged, filled, and paved over with concrete and asphalt to build a resort/ hotel. It was one of the most depressing things I'd ever seen. The corruption going on behind the scenes made me want to vomit. Anything for money.

 

[somebugnerd]

Peter at Bugs in Cyberspace regularly offers captive born and bred vinegaroons of US native species. Check out his website, he's a good guy who does a lot to support the bug hobby and his prices are really reasonable. Here is a link: https://bugsincyberspace.com/product-category/live-pet-bugs/arachnid-aliens/

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Sadly you're not wrong. In the past I worked on a project where we bred endangered birds in captivity then released them back into their natural habitat. Sadly the local government sold this previously protected sensitive habitat to developers for extra $$$. Within a year the marsh where many of these birds lived was dredged, filled, and paved over with concrete and asphalt to build a resort/ hotel. It was one of the most depressing things I'd ever seen. The corruption going on behind the scenes made me want to vomit. Anything for money.

It's all for sale, every single bit of it. Nothing is sacred, extinction is a cost of business.

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Peter at Bugs in Cyberspace regularly offers captive born and bred vinegaroons of US native species. Check out his website, he's a good guy who does a lot to support the bug hobby and his prices are really reasonable. Here is a link: https://bugsincyberspace.com/product-category/live-pet-bugs/arachnid-aliens/

Peter is on the level, great guy to work with.

 

[Flammendehaar]

Peter at Bugs in Cyberspace regularly offers captive born and bred vinegaroons of US native species. Check out his website, he's a good guy who does a lot to support the bug hobby and his prices are really reasonable. Here is a link: https://bugsincyberspace.com/product-category/live-pet-bugs/arachnid-aliens/

I actually emailed Peter just the other day! I'm in the UK so unfortunately can't buy any of his captive bred animals, but he said breeding them isn't especially hard, so my plan now is to buy a subadult WC specimen, see how I get on caring for it to adulthood, then if I'm confident in my ability to look after it, get an additional vinegaroon and attempt to breed at least one generation myself, to introduce some captive bred into the market and make up for the initial WC purchase. I'll probably also try to document it and post it around to try to encourage others to do so. They're such fascinating animals and come with none of the dangers of tarantulas or scorpions so I'm really amazed they aren't more popular as a captive bred pet species, and want to try to change that.

 

[Flammendehaar]

Simple, if you're not going to attempt to breed them and further the captive population, then wait for CBB to become available.

Honestly I think you're right. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it this week and I think the only way I can justify buying a wild caught animal to myself is if I then attempt to get some breeding going, so that's my plan going forward.

 

[catboyeuthanasia]

In the meantime, Amblygypids are quite a bit easier to get captive bred! They do need to live in arboreal enclosures, but they look kinda similar to vinegaroons

 

[Flammendehaar]

In the meantime, Amblygypids are quite a bit easier to get captive bred! They do need to live in arboreal enclosures, but they look kinda similar to vinegaroons

I do like amblypygids and will probably get some one day but right now I can only make a horizontal enclosure work space-wise, and I actually can't see any captive bred available in the UK right now either! In fact, I can't see many at all, even less than vinegaroons!

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Honestly I think you're right. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it this week and I think the only way I can justify buying a wild caught animal to myself is if I then attempt to get some breeding going, so that's my plan going forward.

The more hobbyists that breed these animals in captivity, the better. I wish more people in the hobby had this mentality (done responsibly of course).