Emperor scorpion and mice.

[Veno Manus]

Been a topic I've been curious on. I recently purchased some pinky mics frozen to try and feed to my Emperor Imperator to try and maybe add a twist into her diet. I've heard from maybe places it can be beneficial and I've heard from many it's not worth it. I've wanted to do termites but haven't really dug to far into it. Just have been sticking with crickets and adult dubias. She denied the mice and didn't think anything of it. So my question is what's the pros and cons of feeding a heartier meal like that? I feel the protein would be there for sure but is there a negitive side other then removal of waist? Looking for educated answers and tips from keepers with more experience with factual data. Thanks group.

 

[SpookySpooder]

First, I don't keep scorpions, and I have no data for you.

But, I guess you could argue some sort of benefit like more calcium, iron, or various other vitamins... but IMO the trouble and mess isn't really worth it.

You can accomplish the same thing with some vitamin dust... but as I'm sure you're aware Arachnids don't need any supplemental calcium or iron or anything like that.

Besides... if you gutload your insect feeders with a variety of good food, such as leafy greens, carrots, peas, etc. you can transfer all those trace nutrients to your scorpion in a much more organic and easily digestible form.

So... I would say forget about it, and feed the mice to a herp that would enjoy it.

 

[Veno Manus]

That's what I've been experiencing I just wanted to venture off in the norm of feeders cause I'd like to incorporate what it would be like in the jungle. You don't just find only crickets. Like a rare case where one did wonder into the spavlce of the Emperor and that was the meal of the day type scenario

 

[SpookySpooder]

That's a nice thought but where in nature is a pinky gonna wander into a scorpion burrow? An adult is gonna outrun the scorpion and could possibly eat it if it attacks the telson first. The only time I can see a scorpion eating a rodent is in the off chance it somehow ambushes one with a stinger to the face, or if the rodent wanders face first into the burrow of a hungry scorpion, or maybe if it scavenged a dead one.

It would be so infrequent (if it happens at all) I wouldn't even consider it a staple item to be feeding. If you're so concerned about nutrition and variety, just gutload a variety of healthy foods into a variety of insect feeders. Waxworms, mealworms, roaches, crickets, toss in a couple earthworms here and there... honestly that's enough variety.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

That's a nice thought but where in nature is a pinky gonna wander into a scorpion burrow? An adult is gonna outrun the scorpion and could possibly eat it if it attacks the telson first. The only time I can see a scorpion eating a rodent is in the off chance it somehow ambushes one with a stinger to the face, or if the rodent wanders face first into the burrow of a hungry scorpion, or maybe if it scavenged a dead one.

It would be so infrequent (if it happens at all) I wouldn't even consider it a staple item to be feeding. If you're so concerned about nutrition and variety, just gutload a variety of healthy foods into a variety of insect feeders. Waxworms, mealworms, roaches, crickets, toss in a couple earthworms here and there... honestly that's enough variety.

I think a small fuzzy mice would be a more natural meal like you said pinkies don’t wander into burrows . But said I prefer roaches and insects as feeders no nasty mess to clean up although I understand sometimes people want to give them variety I’ve rarely ever fed mice . I don’t think a 6” emp would struggle to crush a fuzzy . How big emp we talking?

Been a topic I've been curious on. I recently purchased some pinky mics frozen to try and feed to my Emperor Imperator to try and maybe add a twist into her diet. I've heard from maybe places it can be beneficial and I've heard from many it's not worth it. I've wanted to do termites but haven't really dug to far into it. Just have been sticking with crickets and adult dubias. She denied the mice and didn't think anything of it. So my question is what's the pros and cons of feeding a heartier meal like that? I feel the protein would be there for sure but is there a negitive side other then removal of waist? Looking for educated answers and tips from keepers with more experience with factual data. Thanks group.

I mean you already bought them why not use one? Poor mice lol but snake keepers understand. You could argue it’s not any less natural then feeding tropical roaches to desert inverts .

 

[Veno Manus]

Haha well we all live a little different. Not gonna go and explain myself. Interested in the thought. Thanks you guys!

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Haha well we all live a little different. Not gonna go and explain myself. Interested in the thought. Thanks you guys!

Hungry scorpion I the wild runs into a mouse , unless it’s a jumping crazy & gets away mouse the scorpion wins . Forgot the name of the video we’re the mouse won . But it wasn’t vs an emporer or afs those would win.

 

[TechnoGeek]

You're on the right track since you're feeding F/T rodents instead of live ones. That said, I would be cautious still cause scorps are messy eaters and any leftovers would rot and stink like hell and attract molt and bacteria like a magnet especially if you keep your scorp warm.

If you're diligent about cleaning or expect to change the substrate soon go for it.

 

[SpookySpooder]

AFS have been observed in the wild and studied in labs eating rodents. However it's been proven countless times in captivity they don't need to consume a single rodent in order to have a varied, healthy, and nutritious diet.

I absolutely hate when one of my reptiles pops a thawed feeder and guts and blood soak into the substrate. I have to change it every time that happens, as the smell of rotten mouse guts and mold isn't something I'm fond of or want to tolerate.

You said stuff such as "heartier meal" and "you feel that the protein would be there" but your assumptions are incorrect. The word choice alone implies you haven't done much research into scorpion metabolism or the physiology of their digestive system. You should do some research instead of making random assumptions, you'll have figured out the type of protein doesn't matter because they simply don't have the ability to extract the same kind of amino acids and proteins an obligate carnivore like we can. They eat more like a spider than a cat.

To them cricket protein is the same as roach protein, which is the same as mouse protein. There is no "heartier meal" besides the size of the feeder. You'd also know they can't absorb calcium from the rodent because they can't eat the bones, so a roach would technically be more nutritious as they provide calcium through their juices, and not their shell.

You'd also know that scorpions just don't care about eating the same thing all the time.
I don't even have a scorpion and I learned all this from Google.

If you actually cared about your scorpion's diet, you would attempt to source termites, as in the wild that is more than half of their food supply. You would also gutload roach and cricket feeders with the necessary trace nutrients, not dive down some odd path of feeding rodents to it because you heard on the internet they can kill rodents.

But like you said, you'll do however you like, so why even bother asking? Go ahead.
No need to explain yourself either because I don't care, it's your scorpion.

Bon appétit!

 

[darkness975]

Don't

 

[CRX]

They may have been recorded eating TINY rodents in the wild, but this is in no freaking way standard and they are not meant to normally eat animals with bones.

I just can't see any reason for wanting to feed rodents if you don't have to, are you going for the shock factor or something? Cmon we aren't 12.

 

[Olsin]

A mammal feeding a mammal to an invertebrate that doesn't need it has many levels of wrongness to it...

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

A mammal feeding a mammal to an invertebrate that doesn't need it has many levels of wrongness to it...

Yeah and it’s supposedly suggested all over the internet on caresheets so there’s that to Blame also.

AFS have been observed in the wild and studied in labs eating rodents. However it's been proven countless times in captivity they don't need to consume a single rodent in order to have a varied, healthy, and nutritious diet.

I absolutely hate when one of my reptiles pops a thawed feeder and guts and blood soak into the substrate. I have to change it every time that happens, as the smell of rotten mouse guts and mold isn't something I'm fond of or want to tolerate.

You said stuff such as "heartier meal" and "you feel that the protein would be there" but your assumptions are incorrect. The word choice alone implies you haven't done much research into scorpion metabolism or the physiology of their digestive system. You should do some research instead of making random assumptions, you'll have figured out the type of protein doesn't matter because they simply don't have the ability to extract the same kind of amino acids and proteins an obligate carnivore like we can. They eat more like a spider than a cat.

To them cricket protein is the same as roach protein, which is the same as mouse protein. There is no "heartier meal" besides the size of the feeder. You'd also know they can't absorb calcium from the rodent because they can't eat the bones, so a roach would technically be more nutritious as they provide calcium through their juices, and not their shell.

You'd also know that scorpions just don't care about eating the same thing all the time.
I don't even have a scorpion and I learned all this from Google.

If you actually cared about your scorpion's diet, you would attempt to source termites, as in the wild that is more than half of their food supply. You would also gutload roach and cricket feeders with the necessary trace nutrients, not dive down some odd path of feeding rodents to it because you heard on the internet they can kill rodents.

But like you said, you'll do however you like, so why even bother asking? Go ahead.
No need to explain yourself either because I don't care, it's your scorpion.

Bon appétit!

Reptile cleanup after feeding is a lot grosser then Ts it sounds , but what made feeding rodents to inverts popular YouTube videos ?? Or what ..

 

[SpookySpooder]

I haven't been around long enough to know where the idea came from, but while researching information to bring talking points up, I found --> THIS SCORPION STUDY

And although the results speak for themselves, I question how often a scorpion actually ever encounters a rodent in the wild.

Do they actively seek out rodent burrows? Is that a risk Emperor Scorpions regularly undertake?

So I started digging into their behavior in their nature habitat, I found they mostly burrow into termite mounds for their food source, with more than half of their diet being termite larvae, the rest they will supplement with any beetle, spider, worm, or insect they come across. They have been observed eating small rodents and lizards as well, so basically whatever they can catch.

This, coupled with the fact that I've looked through several scorpion "pros" om this forum, who have been keeping them for decades, and none of them advise feeding a rodent nor practice it themselves, I concluded it was not necessary to do.

I do not own a scorpion, but after all that research, I'm considering getting one. I don't think it ever needs to eat a rodent, but that's my opinion.

Reptile cleanup after feeding is a lot grosser then Ts it sounds , but what made feeding rodents to inverts popular YouTube videos ?? Or what ..

Only if they are overzealous in constricting their prey, and end up rupturing the stomach. Usually they swallow the whole thing without popping it, and cleanup for that is very minimal--they deposit a very small dry excretion with a tiny bit of leftover fur.

When they do end up making a mess, I have to change out that area of sub right away or the smell will seep into the substrate and enclosure and remain there for weeks until you bleach the container. The smell of rotten mouse guts is horrible. Worse than if you left a raw piece of chicken in a hot garbage can.

 

[Veno Manus]

Just a question. Can we not try and bash? I'm just curious that's why I'm asking. Sorry to pluck a bad string to some of you but I'm trying to learn why. The internet is full of random unhelpful answers. You guys are my best answers that's why I'm here. I didn't ask for hate about it I'm just genuinely curious about your answers. Ya I may have not looked into it deep enough but that's why I ask you guys because you all seem very knowledgeable. Can I not learn here anymore? Is this the community I'm really in?

 

[SpookySpooder]

Yes, I was trying very hard not to bash. Internet culture has not done me any favors in being empathetic or kind toward unruly strangers. Don't let one person (me) who wasn't that nice to you ruin it for you, there are plenty of great and kind people here who just didn't get the chance to see your thread and respond before things played out. I am not the representative of this community, so let it roll off you and step forward.

You're safe here with us. You might just have to deal with some words now and then, nothing seriously high stakes. As I mentioned to you in our PM, it is tough love born out of our utmost desire for all our arachnid friends to have a good life--your good intention was not ignored. I understood what you wanted to accomplish by trying to vary your scorpions diet, I just didn't agree with how you were going to do it.

I presented you with this,

You can accomplish the same thing with some vitamin dust... but as I'm sure you're aware Arachnids don't need any supplemental calcium or iron or anything like that.

Besides... if you gutload your insect feeders with a variety of good food, such as leafy greens, carrots, peas, etc. you can transfer all those trace nutrients to your scorpion in a much more organic and easily digestible form.

You responded ultimately with this,

Haha well we all live a little different. Not gonna go and explain myself. Interested in the thought. Thanks you guys!

So it made me think, "this guy is asking a serious question, got a pretty good answer for what he was trying to ask, but then just decided to run off and do his own thing anyway."

And no, it wasn't because you didn't listen to me. My ego is neither that big nor that frail. I simply wanted to dissect your reasoning and make you really question WHY you're feeding a rodent.

After your response that sounded like "I'm not listening I'll just do whatever I want I don't need to explain myself to anyone" I just thought "this is one of those people who ask for advice and then ignore it" and then remembered "you did ask for data" so I went to look for it.
I did mention a couple times I don't even have a scorpion and knew almost nothing about them, (I even said they can regenerate limbs without confirming it, in reality they can't, oops) but I found the necessary information to provide you. Then I gave you my personal experiences with the downsides of that type of feeder (others chimed in as well) and I reminded you, you could effectively accomplish what you wanted to do "vary the scorpions diet" AND provide a more nutritious diet by simply switching up the insect feeders and gut loading them.

Should I have been a bit more patient and tried to convince you a third, fourth time? Should I have reworded post #9 into something that was less prone to antagonize and trigger a defensive reaction in you?

Absolutely, I know better than that, and for that I apologize to you again publicly, like I did in our PM already.

Sorry bro, get over it.

 

[Sir Aculeus]

Been a topic I've been curious on. I recently purchased some pinky mics frozen to try and feed to my Emperor Imperator to try and maybe add a twist into her diet. I've heard from maybe places it can be beneficial and I've heard from many it's not worth it. I've wanted to do termites but haven't really dug to far into it. Just have been sticking with crickets and adult dubias. She denied the mice and didn't think anything of it. So my question is what's the pros and cons of feeding a heartier meal like that? I feel the protein would be there for sure but is there a negitive side other then removal of waist? Looking for educated answers and tips from keepers with more experience with factual data. Thanks group.

I've kept various species of scorpions for almost three decades including various centroides, androctonus, leiurus quinquestriatus, emperor and asian forest. I would feed H. spinifer and emps small mice 4 times a year as a treat and to add more complex amino acids and protein to their diets. It is not necessary but I do believe it can be beneficial. In the wild small or juvenile mice can often run into large forest scorpions and emps as well as asian forest have the size and power to catch and eat them with ease. Cheers!

PS make sure your humid scorpion enclosures have good ventilation to prevent mold and mites. Allow for dry times which is also a good time to pick up fecal matter and uneaten parts!

 

[SpookySpooder]

Can you provide your source of information that leads you to believe that they can 1) absorb complex amino acids that are only found in animal protein and 2) that animal protein is the only source of this nutrient

Been trying to find information that supports this theory, but unable to get past the opinion point of it, mostly due to lack of studies or evidence available. (I couldn't find it)

I have found plenty of studies that document HOW a scorpion eats a rodent, plenty of evidence of rodents eating scorpions, but nothing on the potential benefits of such a practice.

 

[Sir Aculeus]

Can you provide your source of information that leads you to believe that they can 1) absorb complex amino acids that are only found in animal protein and 2) that animal protein is the only source of this nutrient

Been trying to find information that supports this theory, but unable to get past the opinion point of it, mostly due to lack of studies or evidence available. (I couldn't find it)

I have found plenty of studies that document HOW a scorpion eats a rodent, plenty of evidence of rodents eating scorpions, but nothing on the potential benefits of such a practice.

Exactly, it is merely my theory, an educated opinion from almost three decades of experience with various scorpion keeping and breeding. Insects and arachnids need the 10 essential amino acids for growth and good health as with other animals, this much I am sure about and anyone can look this up.
I have also done extensive research on scorpions over the decades, but let me know if you find any scientific (peer reviewed) information. Would be great to find out info done by professional researchers who have the resources to do so. Cheers!


P.S. A quote from your post "Can you provide your source of information that leads you to believe that they can 1) absorb complex amino acids that are only found in animal protein and 2) that animal protein is the only source of this nutrient"

I never stated anything you described in your reply to me as scientific evidence nor did I state that animal protien is the only source of amino acids. I am not sure where you are getting all this

 

[SpookySpooder]

Ah dang, I would've loved to fill that hole in my knowledge. I have been heavily researching scorpions since this thread was posted, and am considering a Heterometrus species as my first.

I looked through the threads of who I would consider the long-time scorpion pros on this board, and found feeding rodents to be a rare and almost nonexistent practice. Nobody has offered a satisfactory explanation for why or why not.

What's the 10th essential amino acid?

I can recall histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

Most of which are available in a wide variety of veggies and fruits, and can be transferred to insect feeders via gutloading.

Is there something available in rodent protein that I'm overlooking?