Early Caribena versicolor sling care

[DerGraf]

My background: I already care for one C. versicolor (received as N2/3) and two P. irminia (received as N3/4) and all three still are happy campers. I'm far from an experienced keeper, but caring for arboreal slings (and esp. C. versicolor) isn't totally new to me.

(tldr in the last section, but risk unfitting answers at your own leisure )

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Recently I've bought two more C. versicolor slings, this time N1. I've re-housed them from their dram vials into Chessex Dice boxes (~1.2"x1.2"x2.1"), because I wanted I provide them cross-ventilation. They quickly explored their new surroundings, but after a few days it began to worry me that they kept sitting on the substrate, legs tucked in, in the typical stress pose. One also lost a leg and I didn't know why. Shortly after I learned that they weren't able to climb the sides of the boxes. It seemed weird, as they still were able to when I re-housed them. My best guess is that they were in pre-molt, which reduced their ability to do so, but it might also have been a problem with those boxes or both. As an emergency measure the boxes' sides got heavily scratched and additional climbing opportunities were introduced (picture). Sadly, they died shortly after, before they could settle in and recover.

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Coincidentally, I received 4 more versicolor slings shortly before Christmas. This time I left them in their dram vials, didn't want to duplicate my previous experience. The first of them looking to be in heavy pre-molt lost a leg again, despite hardly having room to fall down, but it has been very clumsy already. The thought of higher risk of trouble with molting worried me, but there wasn't anything I could have done, as far as I know. The molt came 1/12/2023 and there was nothing unusual to report. Today it was found dead, covered in mold fungus (picture). Last visual check was two days before.

The mold fungus growth on the dead nymph seems rather quick for me.

Assuming that's true (correct me, if that's not unusual), it lets me think of a few possibilities connected to it:
1.) It had a fungus infection introduced into its body due to the wound from the lost limb and later died due to the infection.
2.) It already had a fungus infection and got rid of its leg because of it (I didn't see any visual cues up to 1/4/2023 and my SO didn't report anything unusual afterwards), but still died due to the infection later.
In both cases I wouldn't be surprised about the fungus growing more quickly over its carcass than usual - it would have had time to spread through the slings body before.
3.) The vial's top-ventilation isn't enough and the fungus grew quicker because of that. I never moistened the substrate after receiving the slings, I know versicolors don't tolerate high humidity. The substrate wasn't bone-dry, it had some water in it, but definitly wasn't damp as well. Still a possible reason for its death, but also the recent molt (even though no issues were observed) or every other more or less random cause of death, slings sometimes suffer from.

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The reason why I analyse the situation this much: I'm growing increasingly uneasy about the survival of my remaining versicolors. I expected some death, but 50% this early doesn't sit well with me. I wonder if I could do anything better and here do I need your help.

Keepers who already breed and raised a batch of C. versicolor: How do you keep them when they still are this small? Do you do anything differently to meet their specific care needs, especially for air flow and minimizing impaction risks at the same time?

Should I re-house my remaining slings in bigger enclosures with better ventilation? I'm reluctant to use the Chessex boxes again, but only have Rocher box enclosures ready, which surely are way too big for such tiny slings. I fear I just would be switching to option #3 to kill my slings, instead of giving them the care they need to survive.

 

[ladyratri]

The vial's top-ventilation isn't enough

I'd put money on this being at least one of the problems, if not THE problem. My Avic was a little bigger than that when I got it (sold as 2i, was around .75 inch DLS) but my research pointed to the same needs, and the big one is ventilation. A versi or Avic needs a combo of ventilation just above the substrate, and ventilation in the lid. That allows a consistent gentle flow of air coming in the bottom and out the top.

Any arboreal sling, I'd keep in at least a 16 oz deli cup, with ventilation top and bottom as above, a little slice of cork bark, and a fake leaf or two.

My Avic when I got it (not great, but it did thrive in there):


The enclosure I set up before I went to buy my versi, when I thought we'd be getting a tiny sling and instead my kiddo picked the 2" almost-juvi:

 

[NMTs]

I agree that lack of ventilation is the likely culprit, especially with even slightly damp substrate. A bolus left on barely damp sub will mold in less that a day, so no reason to think a sling carcass wouldn't, as well.

I'd switch to deli cups like @ladyratri showed above, or even 5oz condiment cups of you feel like deli cups are too big. Either way, something you can ventilate at substrate level and up higher is a must, and the more dry the substrate, the better. Just provide a tiny water dish and put a couple drops of water on the webbing once or twice a week so they can drink, and that's all the moisture they need (or can really tolerate).

 

[Dementeddoll]

Definitely ventilation is gonna be the main reason. Also it should be fine with just topping off water. I got one back in thanksgiving and it refused to eat up until the week before Christmas and I’m guessing it was after I removed it from the dram vial and put it in a enclosure with cross ventilation. It started becoming a veracious eater. Right now it’s in premolt. With its little grape looking booty and heavy webbing. Lots of times you just need the appropriate husbandry. Has a lot to do with t deaths.

 

[campj]

You actually don't need ventilation beyond a 1.5mm hole in the lid of the vial, as long as the substrate is completely dry and there's a small constant source of water available (tiny vial set into the larger vial for instance). I posted some highly controversial comments five or so years ago in a Y. diversipes thread, but the slings developing at a normal pace and thriving was proof enough for me that this method works. I unfortunately couldn't continue caring for those spiders to see them develop into adulthood because I had to move overseas. But the breeder who recommended caring for them that way keeps all his avics similarly, and has had great success.

OP, I'd say your issue is in part due to overly wet substrate based on the dark shade in the photo of the vial you posted. Unless it's just naturally very dark soil. In any case, I'd house them in the same vial, but removing all soil and replacing with a small amount of bone dry soil, a bit of wood to provide an anchor point for them to create a home, and a small water source with a constant supply of fresh water. Easy as that.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

The mold fungus growth on the dead nymph seems rather quick for me.

Mould can grow very quickly in a poorly ventilated environment. The vast majority of moulds/fungi you're likely to encounter as a keeper will be saprophytic (they feed on decaying organic matter) and are of no threat to a healthy/living tarantula. The conditions that allow mould to thrive (a moist environment with poor airflow) are more of a threat to the tarantula than the mould itself.

3.) The vial's top-ventilation isn't enough and the fungus grew quicker because of that.

This is the most likely of the scenarios.

I know versicolors don't tolerate high humidity.

More that Aviculariinae are intolerant of stuffy/stagnant environments caused by a combination of excessive moisture and insufficient ventilation.

Keepers who already breed and raised a batch of C. versicolor: How do you keep them when they still are this small?

I don't breed but I have raised multiple specimens of various species from the Aviculariinae subfamily (care is the same for the vast majority of genera contained within the subfamily). I house them straight into 32oz deli cups set up like below (I used to house in 12oz cups before moving them up to 32oz but just found it to be an unnecessary extra rehouse when they do fine in 32oz cups right off the bat).



Ventilation consists of a row of holes (just pinholes slightly widened with a toothpick) all around just above substrate level, the same about an inch from the top of the cup, some holes at mid height, and some holes in the lid.

I provide a water dish at ground level and keep around 1/4 to 1/3 of the substrate damp by overflowing the water dish and repeating when it dries out.

This is what has worked best for me, I've had no losses that can be attributed to keeping them this way in six and a half years, I did try raising a batch of Avicularia over bone dry substrate (as is often suggested on here) for an 18 month period but that didn't work too well for me, ended up losing two thirds of them (they mostly either got stuck in their moults or died shortly after moulting) over successive winters.

 

[DerGraf]

Thanks everybody for your replies and describing/showing your sling enclosures!

It's one thing to know what your species generally needs, but another to accuretly judge the finicky details/ practical implementation, what's within parameters and what's not. Especially for slings. Your feedback helped me to decide my course!

OP, I'd say your issue is in part due to overly wet substrate based on the dark shade in the photo of the vial you posted. Unless it's just naturally very dark soil.

I can't say for sure, since it's the breeder's soil, not mine. By now I guess it's both.

A bolus left on barely damp sub will mold in less that a day, so no reason to think a sling carcass wouldn't, as well.

I never had mold grow so quickly, not even directly after watering. I guess that's due to all my other enclosures being well ventilated. That likely also tricked me into thinking certain moisture levels would be okay, but I couldn't judge the necessary moisture degree with different ventilation levels properly.

I house them straight into 32oz deli cups set up like below (I used to house in 12oz cups before moving them up to 32oz but just found it to be an unnecessary extra rehouse when they do fine in 32oz cups right off the bat).

Seems like the deaths of the first two slings also pushed me into trying something else that's possibly even more dangerous than the falling risks. Gosh darn it.


To summarize: While keeping very small C. v. slings in vials is possible, the substrate needs to be absolutly bone dry. Most go for bigger cups with enough space for a dish and ventilation, even if it means higher risk of falling.

I had another loss today. This means acting quickly and using what is available atm is pertinent. Because of that and after your replies I've decided to put the remaining two spiderlings into the Rocher boxes, which I have left over from my other Ts. The slings are still small enough to escape through some gaps, but those will be taped. The boxes might be far too big, but as quickly as those two latest deaths happened, I don't want to risk waiting until I can get something smaller. I will put a bit more decoration in, so the slings have more stuff they can use to break potential falls. I hope that's enough. At least my larger versicolor and irminias grew up well in those, even though they started out bigger.

Seems like today's lesson for me is: Never change a running system.

 

[NMTs]

slings are still small enough to escape through some gaps, but those will be taped.

Be sure to tape a piece of paper or something over the gaps that isn't sticky so little sling legs don't get stuck to the adhesive.

 

[viper69]

Thanks everybody for your replies and describing/showing your sling enclosures!

It's one thing to know what your species generally needs, but another to accuretly judge the finicky details/ practical implementation, what's within parameters and what's not. Especially for slings. Your feedback helped me to decide my course!


I can't say for sure, since it's the breeder's soil, not mine. By now I guess it's both.


I never had mold grow so quickly, not even directly after watering. I guess that's due to all my other enclosures being well ventilated. That likely also tricked me into thinking certain moisture levels would be okay, but I couldn't judge the necessary moisture degree with different ventilation levels properly.


Seems like the deaths of the first two slings also pushed me into trying something else that's possibly even more dangerous than the falling risks. Gosh darn it.


To summarize: While keeping very small C. v. slings in vials is possible, the substrate needs to be absolutly bone dry. Most go for bigger cups with enough space for a dish and ventilation, even if it means higher risk of falling.

I had another loss today. This means acting quickly and using what is available atm is pertinent. Because of that and after your replies I've decided to put the remaining two spiderlings into the Rocher boxes, which I have left over from my other Ts. The slings are still small enough to escape through some gaps, but those will be taped. The boxes might be far too big, but as quickly as those two latest deaths happened, I don't want to risk waiting until I can get something smaller. I will put a bit more decoration in, so the slings have more stuff they can use to break potential falls. I hope that's enough. At least my larger versicolor and irminias grew up well in those, even though they started out bigger.

Seems like today's lesson for me is: Never change a running system.

By the time we see mold it has already been in your setup for a while. It doesn’t pop up overnight.

 

[Dementeddoll]

Also remember coco fiber doesn’t do good with water. You’re more prone to getting mold. So on the more humid species I tend to hardly put any or any at all. I do reptisoil. I’d do reptisoil for the versicolor as well since although it’s gonna be mostly dry but the topping off of water here and there will cause mold growth with coco fiber.

 

[DerGraf]

Be sure to tape a piece of paper or something over the gaps that isn't sticky so little sling legs don't get stuck to the adhesive.

No worries, it's done. I already raised a Jumping Spider in those boxes. With them this is a more likely risk, so I already made tapes spider safe before.

By the time we see mold it has already been in your setup for a while. It doesn’t pop up overnight.

That's a huge part of why I was surprised about the sudden outbreak and considered the other possibilities above in the first place: There was no mold to be seen before. Otherwise I would have been alarmed earlier. Still, your point rings true. I can only guess the mold growth hid within the substrate, under webbing and/or the timing of the slings' death was just right for the spores to expand.

Also remember coco fiber doesn’t do good with water. You’re more prone to getting mold. So on the more humid species I tend to hardly put any or any at all. I do reptisoil. I’d do reptisoil for the versicolor as well since although it’s gonna be mostly dry but the topping off of water here and there will cause mold growth with coco fiber.

Didn't hear that before, usually coco fiber is lauded as very mold resistant. I use a reptisoil-equivalent mixed with coco fiber to loosen/air the soil a bit more, though. I can only guess your statement refers to pure coco fiber?


Also, the boxes are done and spiderlings re-housed. One already gets comfortable and started spinning its web, the other is still in acclimating phase.

 

[Dementeddoll]

??? As far as I know it

No worries, it's done. I already raised a Jumping Spider in those boxes. With them this is a more likely risk, so I already made tapes spider safe before.


That's a huge part of why I was surprised about the sudden outbreak and considered the other possibilities above in the first place: There was no mold to be seen before. Otherwise I would have been alarmed earlier. Still, your point rings true. I can only guess the mold growth hid within the substrate, under webbing and/or the timing of the slings' death was just right for the spores to expand.


Didn't hear that before, usually coco fiber is lauded as very mold resistant. I use a reptisoil-equivalent mixed with coco fiber to loosen/air the soil a bit more, though. I can only guess your statement refers to pure coco fiber?


Also, the boxes are done and spiderlings re-housed. One already gets comfortable and started spinning its web, the other is still in acclimating phase.

doesn’t do good with humid conditions that’s why I don’t use it with my humid species it gets moldy fast. As far as the ventilation goes I have pretty good ventilation in all my enclosures. As soon as I stop using coco fiber with the humid species the mold stopped appearing. So I only use it on the drier species and my velvet.

 

[DerGraf]

I don't keep species with very high humidity requirements atm, so my experience is limited there. My isopods and springtails are the most humidity dependant species I care for. All I can say is, my own substrate doesn't mold quickly, even when I've overdone the watering. Not to say I've never had (visible) mold, but I always managed to get rid of it quickly by adding a few extra springtails until the substrate was dry enough again.

My thought here was: Mold needs nutrients to grow. Coco fiber has its benefits as fertilizer, but due to its woody fibers, it takes quite some microbacterial effort to break it down enough to release its nutrients. That's why coco fibre is milled into coco coir when intended as fertilizer.
Personally, I also put my coco bricks into the oven before I soak them, to kill off whatever stuck to the fibers somewhere between palm, international transport, store and my home. I assume one could get a sudden burst of mold without that, until the easily consumable nutrients are used up.

But in the end... if it doesn't work well for you, don't use it. Reptisoil is a fine choice for substrate afaik, no need for unnecessary experiments (kinda' the core insight of this thread ^^"). For me... it's at least a reminder to never become lazy and skip the heat treatment and to keep an extra eye on it, should I get a high humidity T.

 

[cold blood]

Keep it dry and you will need less ventilation. I dont do anything special ventilation-wise for versicolor or any avic sling.

IME too much venting on the lid is not something to prioritize..

I don't keep species with very high humidity requirements atm,

versicolor (and avics in general) should not be kept like this...they absolutely do not have high humidity requirements...this is dated info that led to a host of deaths and the term SADS.

 

[DerGraf]

Also, the boxes are done and spiderlings re-housed. One already gets comfortable and started spinning its web, the other is still in acclimating phase.

Update: For one more spiderling it was too late already. It sadly didn't recover, even after the re-house, and was gone quickly afterwards.

The other one adapted quickly, well and keeps being a spry, hungry little bugger. So the advice to return to my larger enclosures, with better ventilation potential, was spot on. I will stick to them in the future.
The damage was done for most of the slings, but at least one of them made it through.