Domesticating animals

[SandDeku]

I know this may not be the best place to post it--- but I feel too "unwilling" to go look at another forum to post this at.

But does anyone know if its possible for someone to domesticate a wild animal? or get as close as possible to doing so? I have the funds for doing so as well as I'ved delt with many kinds of animals and deal with some as well.

Just wondering if stuff like wild birds, small mammals, fish, etc. Can be domesticated(as for fish-- stuff like trout, minnows, etc just captive bred them?)? Like wondering if I can help them adapt to captivity. It's not for any personal gain asides just knowledge. See I read about people keeping stuff like hedgehogs, degus, hamsters, rabbits, guinea pigs, birds, etc. Think about it--- someone at some point in time must have domesticated them? So why can't "I" do so as well? I'm a very determined person if I do say so myself. I'm not an expert by any means, nor am I some super intelligent person. But I can say I do have the "determination" and such.

I hope I don't get bagged on too badly for this but I just wanna know peoples' opinions/thoughts/answers and actual facts on this matter.

Any bit of information will be appreciated or even opinions as well!

 

[Crysta]

I would reccomend you get your wildlife rehab certificate... and a permit for keep wild animals... Once you have those things you can think about the above.

 

[EShell]

I'd agree with Crysta and suggest you become involved with your local fish & wildlife agency if you actually have the time to care for wild animals. It can be very rewarding, and I even got free rabies vaccinations.

As a former "Foster Parent to Wildlife" in Maryland, affiliated with the DNR and permitted to hold native fauna captive, I'd say "No, they cannot be tamed." in 99% of all cases involving birds and mammals.

In my experience, most mammals can be tamed somewhat as VERY young juveniles and can be a lot of fun, especially raccoons, but there will be a very clear point at which the animal considers itself grown up.

A LOT of it depends on the nature of the animal/bird. "Pack animals" (dogs/wolves) and other gregarious species typically have social skills and actively interact with others in their social group, and these sorts respond better to "having limits" and learning new behaviors. Animals that are typically loners don't usually have a lot of patience for whatever it is you're bothering them with this time.

The problem with keeping most sorts of wild animals is that they have their own brains, pre-programmed with very specific goals.

In almost every rehab case I've ever had, as soon as the rescued orphans reach puberty, they take on a completely new personality. Opossums, groundhogs, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, foxes, deer...all fine and cuddly until their biological clock starts ticking loud enough to get their attention.

The single exception to this I experienced was a female baby raccoon I was called out to get that was in very bad shape from starvation and hypothermia. It literally slept with us for weeks and had run of the house. This female reached sexual maturity and showed some tendency to be independent, but returned continuously long after being allowed to come and go as she pleased. She got fed and cuddled, then gone for a week or a month, then back for a visit.

Native bird species are normally very difficult to make pets of unless you are able to hatch them and bond immediately, although some will accept fostering at an early age, but certainly pre-fledge. We rescued 5 baby geese from the railroad tracks and raised them to flight and departure. They were extremely tame and would come when we called them, if they weren't already underfoot. They were hilarious and would even try to defend us from vehicles and other geese when we took them for walks to the nearest place other waterfowl frequented. At 8 weeks of age, they fledged and a week later, they left together. They came back a few times, and we had a few reports for neighbors that "your geese" were in the yard, etc., but eventually, they stopped coming back. Any birds that are normally migratory will want to move during the seasons, and this can be a major issue, even if they seem isolated from seasonal indicators.

Lower animal forms (reptiles, amphibians, fish) will usually tolerate captivity well because their very basic needs can be met and that's their entire concern. As long as they have shelter/security, food, water and possibly mates, they really don't seem to have big aspirations that are frustrated by captivity and are usually content to lie about.

Even these animals can be surprisingly astute though. I had a 16" Largemouth Bass in a 110 gallon tank from the time he was 4" long and he could tell the difference between my coffee cup and a cup of nightcrawlers. They say that most of the bass caught and released at tournaments will return to their home territory, even if they are released 10 miles away. I had a large old maple tree, riddled with hollows, that the Black Rat Snakes would return to. I would often see as many as 7 or 8 adult snakes lying up on the smaller branches on hot days. Many had visible scars that enabled positive identification. I was amazed at how far from the house I would encounter these snakes (500 yards), but then see them again later, back at the tree. It was kind of sad when I had to take the tree down and the snakes would continue to come for the next two years, climb the stump and stretch upwards to reach the missing tree.

 

[SandDeku]

I would reccomend you get your wildlife rehab certificate... and a permit for keep wild animals... Once you have those things you can think about the above.

Where would I be able to get those? And what are the requirement for those?

---------- Post added at 09:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

I'd agree with Crysta and suggest you become involved with your local fish & wildlife agency if you actually have the time to care for wild animals. It can be very rewarding, and I even got free rabies vaccinations.

As a former "Foster Parent to Wildlife" in Maryland, affiliated with the DNR and permitted to hold native fauna captive, I'd say "No, they cannot be tamed." in 99% of all cases involving birds and mammals.

In my experience, most mammals can be tamed somewhat as VERY young juveniles and can be a lot of fun, especially raccoons, but there will be a very clear point at which the animal considers itself grown up.

A LOT of it depends on the nature of the animal/bird. "Pack animals" (dogs/wolves) and other gregarious species typically have social skills and actively interact with others in their social group, and these sorts respond better to "having limits" and learning new behaviors. Animals that are typically loners don't usually have a lot of patience for whatever it is you're bothering them with this time.

The problem with keeping most sorts of wild animals is that they have their own brains, pre-programmed with very specific goals.

In almost every rehab case I've ever had, as soon as the rescued orphans reach puberty, they take on a completely new personality. Opossums, groundhogs, squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, foxes, deer...all fine and cuddly until their biological clock starts ticking loud enough to get their attention.

The single exception to this I experienced was a female baby raccoon I was called out to get that was in very bad shape from starvation and hypothermia. It literally slept with us for weeks and had run of the house. This female reached sexual maturity and showed some tendency to be independent, but returned continuously long after being allowed to come and go as she pleased. She got fed and cuddled, then gone for a week or a month, then back for a visit.

Native bird species are normally very difficult to make pets of unless you are able to hatch them and bond immediately, although some will accept fostering at an early age, but certainly pre-fledge. We rescued 5 baby geese from the railroad tracks and raised them to flight and departure. They were extremely tame and would come when we called them, if they weren't already underfoot. They were hilarious and would even try to defend us from vehicles and other geese when we took them for walks to the nearest place other waterfowl frequented. At 8 weeks of age, they fledged and a week later, they left together. They came back a few times, and we had a few reports for neighbors that "your geese" were in the yard, etc., but eventually, they stopped coming back. Any birds that are normally migratory will want to move during the seasons, and this can be a major issue, even if they seem isolated from seasonal indicators.

Lower animal forms (reptiles, amphibians, fish) will usually tolerate captivity well because their very basic needs can be met and that's their entire concern. As long as they have shelter/security, food, water and possibly mates, they really don't seem to have big aspirations that are frustrated by captivity and are usually content to lie about.

Even these animals can be surprisingly astute though. I had a 16" Largemouth Bass in a 110 gallon tank from the time he was 4" long and he could tell the difference between my coffee cup and a cup of nightcrawlers. They say that most of the bass caught and released at tournaments will return to their home territory, even if they are released 10 miles away. I had a large old maple tree, riddled with hollows, that the Black Rat Snakes would return to. I would often see as many as 7 or 8 adult snakes lying up on the smaller branches on hot days. Many had visible scars that enabled positive identification. I was amazed at how far from the house I would encounter these snakes (500 yards), but then see them again later, back at the tree. It was kind of sad when I had to take the tree down and the snakes would continue to come for the next two years, climb the stump and stretch upwards to reach the missing tree.

So what about with starting with something small and simple? Like say a sparrow? Would they be "able" to adapt to captivity if I found them as hatchlings and tried to bond with them? because if I recall they are communal right? Small birds most likely tend to be communal. Or wood doves? or any pidgeon that's wild. lol. warblers? thrushes? finches?

I'm talking about either really small birds(palm sized or so) or small mammals that are also "palm sized". Not because I wanna give them small room. By all means--- the more room they need Ill gladly provide. And I'm not going to take this task right away.

I rather get permission from the state for an "okay" to do so. I have a lot of pets. But I figured and been told "as long as you can take care of them-- then it's fine". Which shouldn't be a problem because I'm aspiring to either be a vet or atleast learn the basic vet tricks. Which some I already learned.

I know how to check for parasites in animals(learned this through a professional at another site which he works with amphibians but he said the procedure is all the same).

I'm hoping to learn other things prior to doing any of this. Just because I figured it would help me to get some experience under my belt before I take on any task. Cause what if I do end up getting the okay for taking a wild small bird that is "common" and I end up caring for it. What happens if its known for being quite a "liar" when they get ill and I won't even see the difference and two weeks later the bird is dead. This happens very much with turtles. So I'm sure I should take caution with other animals.

I guess I want to be able to do somethings that I already feel I maybe "good" at. I hope to work for a "rescue" for wild animals someday even if its volunteer work. Things I would never take or even get near would be--deers, elks, bears,(anything hoofed to be honest or bigger than a foot long or tall) or anything dangerous or potentially dangerous.

I would definitely not go and take a "squirrel" because they have high energetic needs. Nor a wolf, nor anything that is overly hyper and will stress the crud out in a confined area. Sure other animals will but maybe not as much.

Then again I'm not super experienced with wild animals to begin with exception reptiles, fish and amphibians as well as inverts.

Would this be okay at all? if I got the permission from the state? I'm talking about for the needs of the animals. Can those animals mentioned have their needs met?

I was hoping to start with captive bred birds first. I mean I've had lovebirds before--- but that was it. I'd like to get acquainted with button quails. Not just because they're "adorable" but because I think that's as "wild" as I could get --- legally and potentially at this stand point. But that said I wouldn't have this until later on.

 

[Crysta]

Where would I be able to get those? And what are the requirement for those?

Google your areas wildlife rehab center, you take an exam, and go get some volunteer experience (in canada anyways) and within 2 years you can do it on your own. But i'd google your state laws on the issue.

So what about with starting with something small and simple? Like say a sparrow? Would they be "able" to adapt to captivity if I found them as hatchlings and tried to bond with them? because if I recall they are communal right? Small birds most likely tend to be communal. Or wood doves? or any pidgeon that's wild. lol. warblers? thrushes? finches?

Not sure if its the same as with your state and my province, but here in NB you can't posses/touch native birds or you're up for a 1500$ fine... people do care about it. This is without proper permits.

I rather get permission from the state for an "okay" to do so. I have a lot of pets.

Usually you need credentials to do this, now adays.
Animal behavior degree, rehab stuff.

But I figured and been told "as long as you can take care of them-- then it's fine".

That's really wrong, especially for wildlife. One mistake on your end could cost it its life, where it could have been doing fine outside.

I know how to check for parasites in animals(learned this through a professional at another site which he works with amphibians but he said the procedure is all the same).

What kind of parasites?

Would this be okay at all? if I got the permission from the state? I'm talking about for the needs of the animals. Can those animals mentioned have their needs met?

When you've got the required experience under your belt by apprenticing, or volunteering at a local wildlife rehab center you will learn the stepping stones to those questions yourself.

I was hoping to start with captive bred birds first. I mean I've had lovebirds before--- but that was it. I'd like to get acquainted with button quails. Not just because they're "adorable" but because I think that's as "wild" as I could get --- legally and potentially at this stand point. But that said I wouldn't have this until later on.

arent button quails already domesticatedish?

 

[xhexdx]

I have the funds

That's where they went! If you'd kindly send them back my way, I'd appreciate it...

 

[LeilaNami]

I would definitely volunteer with some wildlife rehabs in your area before you even try to get your own permit. They can sub-permit you in order for you to learn hands on. Wildlife can be difficult and expensive to keep. Keep in mind, just breeding one group of birds over and over is not going to domesticate anything and you would simply be a breeder. Birds I would imagine you having to hand feed each and every single one in order to even get them to the level of being tame.

And yes, what parasites? There are many and and many require different procedures.

 

[pitbulllady]

Domesticating an animal and taming an animal are not the same thing! Domestication is a process that takes place over a long time period, over many successive generations of the animal species involved, during which the animals are bred selectively and deliberately for specific traits. Some of those traits might be in the typical behavior of the animals, while others might involve the animals' appearance, and in many cases, both appearance AND behavior are affected. Consider the Golden Retriever, for instance, bred for a normally friendly disposition, a gold, silky coat, floppy ears, soft brown eyes...and compare it to a wolf. Same species, actually, but what a difference! The Golden Retriever is an example of a domesticated animal, and the differences we see in its looks and behavior from those of a wolf are the result of that domestication. Now, you can TAME a wolf, but there's a certain essence of it that will always be a wild animal, a natural animal, unaffected by selective breeding by humans but the result of natural selection for survival.

pitbulllady

 

[SandDeku]

Google your areas wildlife rehab center, you take an exam, and go get some volunteer experience (in canada anyways) and within 2 years you can do it on your own. But i'd google your state laws on the issue.


Not sure if its the same as with your state and my province, but here in NB you can't posses/touch native birds or you're up for a 1500$ fine... people do care about it. This is without proper permits.


Usually you need credentials to do this, now adays.
Animal behavior degree, rehab stuff.


That's really wrong, especially for wildlife. One mistake on your end could cost it its life, where it could have been doing fine outside.


What kind of parasites?


When you've got the required experience under your belt by apprenticing, or volunteering at a local wildlife rehab center you will learn the stepping stones to those questions yourself.


arent button quails already domesticatedish?

I never said that I'd go take an animal from the wild without any proper permits. :x that's the point. I wanna be able to get such permits. I guess Ill go get my credentials to do so. I'd love to make a sparrow "tame" AND ANDDDDDD "domesticated". Curiously. What about pidgeons and sparrows. Do they sell them captive bred? I know they sometimes sell doves. But just wondering what people here think. I heard of some pidgeons having this fancy look that they really can't fly away lol.

and button quails are already domesticated but they still hold their "wild" streak to them.

---------- Post added at 07:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 AM ----------

Domesticating an animal and taming an animal are not the same thing! Domestication is a process that takes place over a long time period, over many successive generations of the animal species involved, during which the animals are bred selectively and deliberately for specific traits. Some of those traits might be in the typical behavior of the animals, while others might involve the animals' appearance, and in many cases, both appearance AND behavior are affected. Consider the Golden Retriever, for instance, bred for a normally friendly disposition, a gold, silky coat, floppy ears, soft brown eyes...and compare it to a wolf. Same species, actually, but what a difference! The Golden Retriever is an example of a domesticated animal, and the differences we see in its looks and behavior from those of a wolf are the result of that domestication. Now, you can TAME a wolf, but there's a certain essence of it that will always be a wild animal, a natural animal, unaffected by selective breeding by humans but the result of natural selection for survival.

pitbulllady

I understand. Which is why I wanted to know if its possible to domesticate certain animals.

------------------

Now curiously. Something like a vole. People consider them pests right? Would one be okay to take a wild vole? I remember reading the other topic where someone else asked a similar question. But I'm seriously curious about that. Something like a vole, or a field mouse, or deer mouse or something. Would one be able to successfully keep one in captivity?

 

[dtknow]

Domestication is a gradient. Button quail are somewhat domesticated-in fact-I'd like to find a bloodline that will actually sit on their eggs...it seems that was inadverdently bred out of them.

Different breeds of chickens differ in their ability to forage for themselves and fend for themselves when free ranged.

If you like pigeons-it sounds like you might get a real kick out of homing pigeons, or otherwise high-fliers/similar breeds. These are allowed to fly free for the most part but if trained/conditioned properly will return to their home coop. Their is nothing illegal about taking a wild pigeon, house sparrow(Passer domesticus), or starling from the wild. Hand raised starlings make very interesting pets-I know a person or two who handraised nestlings they found after evicting the parents from a birdbox. They are great mimics and frequently learn phrases and tunes...but please do your research before taking one in.

For wild mammals-you will need to check your state regulations. Since I am in CA, voles are not allowed to be kept as pets. Definetly do not capture deer/white footed mice. Older literature makes them out to be excellent pets, and I am sure they are-beautiful as well. However, they can transmit a potentially fatal virus to humans(Hantavirus). So don't mess with that!

In truth, the dwarf hamsters available in the trade are quite similar to voles/wild mice we have here in our country. If you are in a state gerbils are legal they may also be a good choice. You can set these up in a naturalistic enclosure and observe more wild behavior that way.

 

[pouchedrat]

yeah domestication takes generations.... some species have been known to domesticate early (it's said that pouched rats are completely domesticated by 7th generation) and then there's species we've bred in captivity for hundreds of years and they still aren't domesticated.

taming a wild animal is a lot different... my prairie dogs are tame (and super loving pets), my rats are domestic.

 

[Bigboy]

Domesticating an animal and taming an animal are not the same thing! Domestication is a process that takes place over a long time period, over many successive generations of the animal species involved, during which the animals are bred selectively and deliberately for specific traits. Some of those traits might be in the typical behavior of the animals, while others might involve the animals' appearance, and in many cases, both appearance AND behavior are affected. Consider the Golden Retriever, for instance, bred for a normally friendly disposition, a gold, silky coat, floppy ears, soft brown eyes...and compare it to a wolf. Same species, actually, but what a difference! The Golden Retriever is an example of a domesticated animal, and the differences we see in its looks and behavior from those of a wolf are the result of that domestication. Now, you can TAME a wolf, but there's a certain essence of it that will always be a wild animal, a natural animal, unaffected by selective breeding by humans but the result of natural selection for survival.

pitbulllady

For example, in a study that has been ongoing in the former soviet union, researchers have been spending decades looking at domestication. I will give an example using foxes which seem to be their mainstay. Keep in mind, this is from selecting the animals that are the friendliest and breeding them.

2nd generation 1962

Aggressive response to humans starts to disappear

4th generation 1964

some kits wag tails and approach humans voluntarily

Kits whimper, allow themselves to be petted and carried

6th generation 1966

When let out of cage, friendliest kits follow humans and lick them

9th generation 1969

Instead of pricking up soon after birth, ears stay floppy up to three months

First kits born with piebald fur and star pattern on forehead

13th generation 1973

Untamed foxes' tails point down; tamed ones' curl up upon seeing humans

15th generation 1975

Rarely, vertebrae are shorter, thicker and fewer in number


They also selectively bred rats to be hyper aggressive towards humans.

Bottom line, domestication is a selective breeding process whereby animals are selected from generation to generation for traits desirable by people.

As a side note, you will never get federal permission to do this and wildlife protection laws would slam you before you had a chance to reach full domestication. If you live in a state that allows it, get your fix by purchasing a "domestic", and I use that term loosely, fox or raccoon from a certified exotics breeder.

 

[SandDeku]

Thanks guys. SO @ dtknow you're saying a common h ouse sparrow baby can be taken without any legal problems? I like homing pigeons too. I like pigeons in general. XD

I'd like to be able to find a breeder of captive bred birds of the usa. lol That'd be sweet. XD doubt they have one. But yeah. If I can't ever do this I may just get a finch or something.

I hope to work for some rehab center for wildlife someday. :O would be nice to work with small animals and birds.

I wonder if dwarf hamsters can be kept in terrarium(dirt, hide out, plants, waterdish, food bowl)? lol that would be more appealing to me than a paper based bedding.

 

[Quazgar]

As others have said, it depends on what you mean when you say domesticate. True domestication, as has been done with dogs, takes many many generations (hundreds, possibly thousands of years to fully do). There's no way you could domesticate one singe animal. Taming might be possible depending on the animal and how hard you work at it. Not all animals can be tamed, though. (I think most people on these boards will tell you it's impossible to tame a tarantula, for example). Creating a habitat in which you can keep a wild animal and in which it will survive is completely possible for almost all animals. However, to paraphrase Jurassic Park, don't be so preoccupied with if you could that you don't stop to think if you should.

Another suggestion if you want to work with wildlife is to try to find a nearby zoo that would let you volunteer there.

 

[SandDeku]

As others have said, it depends on what you mean when you say domesticate. True domestication, as has been done with dogs, takes many many generations (hundreds, possibly thousands of years to fully do). There's no way you could domesticate one singe animal. Taming might be possible depending on the animal and how hard you work at it. Not all animals can be tamed, though. (I think most people on these boards will tell you it's impossible to tame a tarantula, for example). Creating a habitat in which you can keep a wild animal and in which it will survive is completely possible for almost all animals. However, to paraphrase Jurassic Park, don't be so preoccupied with if you could that you don't stop to think if you should.

Another suggestion if you want to work with wildlife is to try to find a nearby zoo that would let you volunteer there.

okay. I guess working at a rescue is a better idea.

 

[pitbulllady]

I never said that I'd go take an animal from the wild without any proper permits. :x that's the point. I wanna be able to get such permits. I guess Ill go get my credentials to do so. I'd love to make a sparrow "tame" AND ANDDDDDD "domesticated". Curiously. What about pidgeons and sparrows. Do they sell them captive bred? I know they sometimes sell doves. But just wondering what people here think. I heard of some pidgeons having this fancy look that they really can't fly away lol.

and button quails are already domesticated but they still hold their "wild" streak to them.

---------- Post added at 07:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 AM ----------


I understand. Which is why I wanted to know if its possible to domesticate certain animals.

------------------

Now curiously. Something like a vole. People consider them pests right? Would one be okay to take a wild vole? I remember reading the other topic where someone else asked a similar question. But I'm seriously curious about that. Something like a vole, or a field mouse, or deer mouse or something. Would one be able to successfully keep one in captivity?

Yes, you can successfully keep them, breed them and even tame them in captivity. I've done it. BUT they aren't domesticated because nothing has really changed. Their offspring will still look and act like wild voles, deer mice, etc. In the domestication process, the animals actually undergo a progressive, generational change of some sort which is genetic, passed down from one generation to another, through selective breeding by humans for certain behavioral/physical traits. Those selected-for traits make the domesticated animal differ from their wild ancestors in some way. IF for example, someone catches a pregnant female vole, and she gives birth to albino offspring, and that person decides they like the white voles better than the normal-colored ones, so they only breed the white offspring to each other. They also decide they don't like being bitten, so they only breed white voles that do not bite. Within a number of generations, those voles will be naturally tame and handleable from day one, and will only be white. Now, they won't be able to survive in the wild at all because the traits selected for by humans are detrimental to survival without human care. They've become really domesticated voles because their tameness is genetic, not just the result of imprinting on a human who raised them. They no longer look or act like wild voles. We are seeing this process in progress now with many species of reptiles, some of which can be truelly considered domesticated strains, like Corn Snakes and Bearded Dragons. Many of the Corn morphs bear little resemblence at all to a wild Corn Snake and are much less defensive. Another would be the Ball Pythons. We are seeing reptiles which do not look or act much like their wild ancestor. Now, you can tame a wild Corn Snake, but most, even hatchlings right out of the egg, are bitey little critters at first, while most morph Corns tend to be far less nippy even when they first hatch. They have been selectively bred not only for color/pattern but for temperament.

pitbulllady

 

[SandDeku]

Yes, you can successfully keep them, breed them and even tame them in captivity. I've done it. BUT they aren't domesticated because nothing has really changed. Their offspring will still look and act like wild voles, deer mice, etc. In the domestication process, the animals actually undergo a progressive, generational change of some sort which is genetic, passed down from one generation to another, through selective breeding by humans for certain behavioral/physical traits. Those selected-for traits make the domesticated animal differ from their wild ancestors in some way. IF for example, someone catches a pregnant female vole, and she gives birth to albino offspring, and that person decides they like the white voles better than the normal-colored ones, so they only breed the white offspring to each other. They also decide they don't like being bitten, so they only breed white voles that do not bite. Within a number of generations, those voles will be naturally tame and handleable from day one, and will only be white. Now, they won't be able to survive in the wild at all because the traits selected for by humans are detrimental to survival without human care. They've become really domesticated voles because their tameness is genetic, not just the result of imprinting on a human who raised them. They no longer look or act like wild voles. We are seeing this process in progress now with many species of reptiles, some of which can be truelly considered domesticated strains, like Corn Snakes and Bearded Dragons. Many of the Corn morphs bear little resemblence at all to a wild Corn Snake and are much less defensive. Another would be the Ball Pythons. We are seeing reptiles which do not look or act much like their wild ancestor. Now, you can tame a wild Corn Snake, but most, even hatchlings right out of the egg, are bitey little critters at first, while most morph Corns tend to be far less nippy even when they first hatch. They have been selectively bred not only for color/pattern but for temperament.

pitbulllady

Nice! I guess I like enjoying wild life so a better option would be to work at a rehab of some sort and then eventually maybe keep some wild animals with permission (if applicable) and only those that are not as hard to keep in captivity as something like a deer or a bear. lol.

 

[dtknow]

PBL: I must contend one point implied in your otherwise excellent example in that domestication does NOT need to be on purpose.

For example, hatchery raised trout are invariably less well adapted to surviving in the wild than wild ones after even a few generations of hatchery life.

Another example is tameness. Animals that are not tame-even if they aren't eliminated from the gene pool on purpose in a captive situation would be less likely to leave offspring as they would be under more stress than individuals that do not see humans as a threat.

 

[pitbulllady]

PBL: I must contend one point implied in your otherwise excellent example in that domestication does NOT need to be on purpose.

For example, hatchery raised trout are invariably less well adapted to surviving in the wild than wild ones after even a few generations of hatchery life.

Another example is tameness. Animals that are not tame-even if they aren't eliminated from the gene pool on purpose in a captive situation would be less likely to leave offspring as they would be under more stress than individuals that do not see humans as a threat.

Yes, there are those exceptions, the trout being one of them, and probably in many species, like dogs from wolves, for example, in the early days of their association with humans the changes weren't intentionally selected for by people, but showed up as part of natural selection because they favored being able to co-exist right next to people. There are also instances where the only change was in appearance; ranch mink come readily to mind. They are bred in a wide array of colors not found in wild mink, and have pretty much lost the ability to survive in the wild(as demonstrated by the many deliberate releases of mink from fur farms by AR activists), but they still have the aggressive nature and tendency to bite, often and and hard as possible, that wild mink with no association with humans have. Even kits that have been bottle raised will not become tame enough to handle, Been There, Done That. I do know that several fur farms and universities have attempted to breed mink that are less bitey, but one of the factors in the domestication process has to be the presence of what geneticists refer to as "plastic genes", genes which readily mutate. Canids apparently have many such plastic genes, and the Russion experiments with fur farm silver foxes bore this out. Not only are the genes prone to mutations themselves, but they are often connected to other genes for totally different traits, so that when the gene that controls one trait undergoes a mutation, so does the other. In the foxes, the trait selected for was gentleness, a willingness to be handled by humans without reacting with fear and/or aggression. In selecting for that trait, though, the experimentors got other changes, namely in appearance. Foxes were born with ears that stayed floppy through adulthood, with curled-up tails like Huskies, with blue eyes, with piebald spotting on their coats, with shorter muzzles-traits we associate with domesticated dogs, and traits which made the foxes useless as fur sources but ideally suited as pets. The coat and physical changes weren't selected for, but just sort of came with the package, apparently having been genetically connected to the genes that control disposition.

pitbulllady

 

[SandDeku]

That'd be nice to know how one does that. lol. I wish I could do that with my toads and make a specific breeding to make my toads' offsprings "stronger", "larger", "voracious eaters", as well as keep the same temperament of the normal american toads. Cause they tend to be "bold" and less flighty(well mine are).

Maybe even pick out some colors. Not albino. But maybe something like the oppossite so that the toad keeps a "jet-black" appearance. Or a "lighter" coloration like some of my toads do. OR get bullfrog colors. Green, yellow and brown. One of my toads gets that coloration when he's been soaking in water for a while. He looks like a bullfrog or should I say "bulltoad" lolol.