Dogthing - A little taste of cold hard reality

[The Snark]

Warning, not for the squeamish

The cat decided to become female. Apparently that gives off a pretty strong scent as there hasn't been a tom cat anywhere near our place for months. We get the tom cat serenade around midnight. From the 2nd story window I look for a water balloon target. I get a glimpse of white then it becomes alarmed, scampers and leaps to the top of the almost 6 foot wall where it parks to look smug... for a brief moment. Here comes a brown and white blur, he clears the top of the wall with ease, gathering the cat in his jaws as he goes. That was the most impressive animal maneuver I've seen in my entire life. I was mercifully not treated to the carnage on the other side of the wall.
Dogthing is in the driveway this morning, chewing on his new cat head ball.

Maybe I could make some money off of this: Got tom cat midnight serenade problems? Solution for rent.

 

[pitbulllady]

Having seen a 100+ pound Akita leap vertically 12 feet into the air to snatch a bird in mid-flight, I can easily picture this. My wolves paled in comparison when it came to predatory ability. And "Rent-An-Akita" might well be the solution to many animal pest problems-raccoons, feral cats, stray dogs, deer, starlings, squirrels, rats, drug dealers-it's 100% natural, no added chemicals!

pitbulllady

 

[korg]

Yeah... I don't know where in Thailand you are (or even if you actually live in Thailand), but I remember the soi dogs in Bangkok being pretty crazy. They would keep me up every night with their snarling and fighting with each other. Then again, I might have just been in a bad part of town.

 

[The Snark]

Well, the moral of this is, when at the top of your game (or wall), don't stop and look smug. Not even a scrap of fur left. Here's hoping this improves his skin condition.
PBL, It's hard in a way to realize and cognize on the capabilities of these animals but having spent a couple of months ranging around outside Darwin, it's pretty easy to see the evolutionary conditioning that has gone into these animals. I mean, the arctic tundra is a supermarket compared to stretches of the outback.

Korg. Not the least bit unusual. The primitive Akita types and the dog meat trade is the only thing keeping those sometimes massive packs under control.

 

[PlaidJaguar]

Impressive! Glad it wasn't your cat. On the upside, fresh meat is very good for dogs, and now you don't have to worry about feeding him for a day or two. Lol

I have so much respect for Akitas. I'm not an Akita owner, unfortunately, but I love working with them. For my own pets I have to stick to biddable, highly neotenized breeds. An Akita would walk all over me!

 

[pitbulllady]

Impressive! Glad it wasn't your cat. On the upside, fresh meat is very good for dogs, and now you don't have to worry about feeding him for a day or two. Lol

I have so much respect for Akitas. I'm not an Akita owner, unfortunately, but I love working with them. For my own pets I have to stick to biddable, highly neotenized breeds. An Akita would walk all over me!

All those dogs in that Dingo-"pariah" dog clade, which includes the familiar Australian Dingo, the Carolina Dog(North American version), and all the true native Japanese breeds, are the least domesticated and most primitive of the entire Canis lupus classification, and neotenized they are NOT! In many ways they seem more like cats than canines, and indeed, I had people mistake my brindle Akita for some sort of large striped wild cat. It's much easier to live with a pure wolf or high content wolfdog than with an Akita, and I've done both. Wolves are more pack-oriented, while Akitas tend to see other canines as just another meal...literally. They never read the books that describe them as a domesticated breed, obviously.

pitbulllady

 

[BobGrill]

What the hell is this? I know you gave a warning ahead of time but... why dude??

 

[The Snark]

What the hell is this? I know you gave a warning ahead of time but... why dude??

One must tread lightly to avoid offending certain people's sensibilities. You know; The dog eats cat thing. Mention even the remotest possibility one is teasing or abusing a cat and suffer a flame bath beyond Dante's imaginings.

These things must have the digestion that far surpasses a goat. How do they chew up and swallow an entire animal?

 

[BobGrill]

One must tread lightly to avoid offending certain people's sensibilities. You know; The dog eats cat thing. Mention even the remotest possibility one is teasing or abusing a cat and suffer a flame bath beyond Dante's imaginings.

These things must have the digestion that far surpasses a goat. How do they chew up and swallow an entire animal?

Well I'm not going to scold you for posting this. I would however advise against posting such things on the forum. Just making a suggestion...

 

[Malhavoc's]

Well I'm not going to scold you for posting this. I would however advise against posting such things on the forum. Just making a suggestion...

The forum is open for discussion, Snark's stories are not gruesome, they are artistic, well worded, and truthful, they also usually provide a outside view on everyday things.

 

[The Snark]

Animals are interesting. Why are animals interesting? Because of what they are and what they do. What they are and what they do is the product of evolution. Viewing the average dog is like looking at the final paragraph in the last chapter of a book. The apex of countless variations, each motivated by the environment at that time and place. The evolvement can be anything from a near instant dead end in a few months as certain roaches to a niche in an ecosystem that allows them to take over an entire land mass unchecked.

The commonest animal people voluntarily come in contact with are dogs. Some dogs are especially interesting as the Dingo where you have the original Dingo breed alive and well in the present day. A (suspected) product of the India Wolf, Canis lupus pallipes, yet DNA analysis is now demonstrating the dingo may be more closely related to domesticated animals. So it's an enigma and an anomaly. From the dingo, as PBL has waxed lyrical about on numerous occasions, comes a vast number of common domestic breeds.

So to sum up, the dingo may have been cycling as wild-domesticated-wild and so on for 10,000 years or more. Possibly an adaptive gene pool and transition between the origin wolf. Essentially, an animal that nature seems to keep recycling into the modern world. This brings us to the dingo once removed as found in Southeast Asia: the "Thai" dog. In appearance many resemble miniature Akita's and they display the hunting and survival traits, which many Akita's inherit, of the dingo. These traits are generally far removed from the common domesticated dog species. As in hunting and eating their fellow dogs ... and cats.

This was the nature of this thread. A (pseudo) domesticated dog that prefers to hunt, mainly frogs and birds, over food offerings from humans. A dogthing that just happens to be quite willing and capable of capturing and eating a domestic cat. This I found most unusual in the demonstration I observed of a primal apex predator doing it's ancient evolutionary thing in the modern world.

What made this so interesting to me is the intelligence demonstrated by dogthing and often found in the Akita. It learned in a few minutes our cat was not to be eaten. It even violently objected to the cat taking liberties but without the death bite these animals are so capable of. It also knew that while the white fuzzy we adopted is to be tolerated, other cats are fair game. What is odd is the average cat, as well as many other animals including birds, can usually elude a domestic dog, while the untainted dingo strain can take them with relative ease.

The hunting traits, abilities of these dogs, purely handed down by genetics, is markedly different from domesticated dogs. My akita demonstrated this genetic over ride mechanism on about 6 occasions when it encountered a bear. It obviously knew the bear would kill it if it went in for the lightning power bite so it severely modified it's mode to circle and harry, bait and dodge, invariably forcing the bear to climb a tree. So how did it know a 150 pound bear had to be dealt with in X way while the 150 pound St. Bernard down the street was instantly killed?

Personally, I suspect that the dingo/SE Asian dog has lived on the periphery of human habitations as well as in some of the harshest environments of the planet. From this is has learned and genetically passed on a number of remarkable traits. A gene pool in flux, carrying with it the best, as evolutionary law dictates, evolving alongside the human and thus quite capable of living among us erectoid types, emulating domesticity, while retaining the brutal ferocity of the primal species. And even to this day there are dogs from this strain, as often seen in the modern day Akita, that cannot be trusted as they carry their primal instincts just 'under the skin'.


Many people on this forum are unusual in a way. They have chose to not have a sheep mentality that dictates, among other things, that spiders are all dangerous and must be instantly flattened. They are curious. Their critical thinking and reasoning hasn't been poisoned by skools and TV and Farcebooks. I watched a video link posted here today of a guy handling a couple of sparassids. His knee jerk flatten 'em reaction had been over-ridden by a deeper understanding. That is what many of these threads are about. Sharing that deeper understanding. Trying to set themselves apart from homo erectus as found in the average beer bar in the midwest on Saturday night. That is what this thread was about. A glimpse into this amazing world beyond the rigid restraints homo domesticus is so busily building around itself. It isn't a rigid static world as much as creature comforts and lack of using the pre frontals demands but one in constant fluid change with an ancient history well worth checking out.

 

[PlaidJaguar]

Your dog killed a Saint Bernard? Why? Did you see how it happened?

 

[Hobo]

The bear killed it, while the dogthing was able to deal with it.

 

[The Snark]

Gall, my Akita, was very much a 'primal' animal. He adamantly refused to go into the house. He never barked but would often sing to himself, a low moaning noise in his throat. In the course of the 4 years he lived there he hunted, laying in wait, and ate, at least 5 coyotes that I found evidence of, maybe a lot more. 2 pittbulls invaded the yard. He killed and ate one, the other escaped but had to be put down due to the severity of it's injuries. The neighbors St. Bernard once got out and marked territory in front of our place. Gall returned the favor, working his way through a chain link fence and killing the Bernard. He was caught in the act, challenged the entire family as he was eating it but was forced to flee when they came at him in a group with a garden hose, shovels and brooms. Over a 3 week period he worked his way through 3 different fences, killed and ate 44 chickens. He also challenged and chased off a displaced bear that came down onto the property after a fire in the hills. That was the only time he made any real noise, making a loud moaning growl as he tried to warn a group of campers of the bears presence.
Up in the mountains he once had a stand off against my stallion. Gall had killed a deer next to the corral and my horse jumped out of his corral to face gall off. He was making sure Gall drew the line and didn't go after the other horses. That was a very tense moment. Gall wasn't about to give up his dinner and a mustang stallion doesn't take poo from anything. They later became somewhat friends giving each other deferential respect.

I later learned this was not all that unusual for Akita's. He had the run of a 50 acre piece of land and his inherited nature came out as he claimed and ruled the territory.

What is fascinating to me is Gall's ancient ancestors from where he got these remarkable traits are alive and well in the outback of Australia. And here I am with a new 'Akita', dogthing. Roughly half way between the Dingo and Gall.

 

[Najakeeper]

I think that was a previous dog, in a previous continent, in a previous life.

 

[pitbulllady]

Your dog killed a Saint Bernard? Why? Did you see how it happened?

You have to realize that Akitas were purposefully bred in Japan to kill other dogs. They excel at this; it's their reason for existence. They do not see other dogs merely as opponents in a fight, but as PREY. the Japanese breeders traditionally beheaded any specimens that would not demonstrate this quality. It is hardwired into them. They are very primitive dogs, in spite of being a recognized breed, and their ancestors formed packs only out of necessity. For a canine, and a wolf descendant at that, Akitas are notoriously independent and solitary, more like cats. I bred Akitas for many years and realized quickly that if I thought of them as if they were ordinary dogs I was going to have a lot of problems, so the solution really was to think of them as big cats, as I would my tigers or mountain lions, and house them accordingly. Akitas are BIG dogs, typically weighing in excess of 100 pounds, and they're extremely fast and agile, which is why I've compared them to velociraptors. You know the old cliche' scenario of someone calling out the fire department to get a cat out of a tree? I had to call out the fire department, with a "cherry picker", to come get one of my DOGS out of a tree once, a male Akita named Machi-Go who had took off straight up a large PINE tree in pursuit of a squirrel, a tree that was as straight as a utility pole(that's the trees those are made of, pines)without a limb in sight for a good 15 feet. Same dog once got on top of my HOUSE by first jumping on top of the cab of my truck, parked next to the house, and then jumping from the truck to the roof, just because he felt like it. He got down himself by jumping straight from the roof to the ground on the opposite side, landing on his feet like a cat, very pleased with his accomplishment. Genetic testing cannot distinguish between the native Japanese breeds, such as the Akita Inu, Shiba Inu and Kyushu Inu("Inu" means "dog" in Japanese, btw) and the Dingo of Australia and Southeast Asia, the Carolina Dog of North America, the Jindo of the Korean Peninsula and many other variations of this same "theme". All of them originated in Southeast Asia and were carried to their various destinations by ancients humans, with the Dingo actually being the latest arrival, only existing in Australia for roughly 3,500 years. These same dogs have existed on the Japanese islands since the Stone Age. They are designed to survive under the harshest conditions, and cannibalism no doubt has ensured that REALLY only the strongest survived, not only having to elude other predators, like tigers or salt water crocs, but each other! Many dogs, even the most-pampered house pooches, will kill cats unless they've been specifically taught NOT to do this, and even still, a lot depends on the cat. Dogs that will happily coexist with a calm cat, sleeping with the cat, playing with it, sharing food with it, will still often chase and at least attempt to kill a strange cat that runs or becomes defensive in any way. Few will actually EAT a cat, though, because they know that their next meal is guaranteed. Most dogs just are not as effective or successful at predation, and more often than not, their intended victim escapes up a tree or under something where the dog can't reach it. Akitas and other primitive dogs still have that mentality that each potential meal will be their absolute last for a long time, the same behavior exhibited by captive wild carnivores of all species, so they make the best of their kills, and guard them ferociously and devour every scrap.

pitbulllady

 

[PlaidJaguar]

PBL--I didn't realize they were bred to kill dogs. I always thought they were used for taking down bears and wildcats and the like. Was the original intent to control wild dog populations or were they used more for dogfighting?

I know they're tough as nails and independent as all hell, and I have immense admiration and respect for them. In fact, I'm the only groomer in my shop who's comfortable working with them. Just as you say, they must be treated more like a cat than a dog. Disrespecting an Akita is a good way to find yourself in a world of hurt!

 

[pitbulllady]

PBL--I didn't realize they were bred to kill dogs. I always thought they were used for taking down bears and wildcats and the like. Was the original intent to control wild dog populations or were they used more for dogfighting?

I know they're tough as nails and independent as all hell, and I have immense admiration and respect for them. In fact, I'm the only groomer in my shop who's comfortable working with them. Just as you say, they must be treated more like a cat than a dog. Disrespecting an Akita is a good way to find yourself in a world of hurt!

They were used for organized dog-fighting, which took place in a sealed cage, not a "pit" as with Western-style dog-fighting. There were no "scratches" or "time outs", no neutral corners, no handlers. Winners got to eat the flesh of the losers. When not fighting or being conditioned to fight, the dogs were more or less left to their own devices, to survive the best they could. Northern Honshu Island is a cold, mountainous, unforgiving terrain, much like the Canadian Rockies or southern Alaska, so it took a very tough, rugged animal to survive there. These dogs were used to hunt bears and other large game, just as American Pit Bull Terriers are used for that purpose here, but their primary use was as fighting dogs. One of the traits that resulted from their history as fighters-and I'm sure you've encountered this-is that Akitas keep a "poker face". They have the least variable facial expressions of any canine I've ever dealt with. The same face that says, "I love you so much and I'm so happy to see you" is almost indistinguishable from the face that says, "I'm going to kill you now". They seldom bark or give evidence of pain or discomfort. In the fights, dogs that barked, whimpered, yelped or made any sound beyond the occasional low growl were deemed cowardly, apt to quit and give up, and those dogs were killed immediately. Dogs which went through any of the typical canine posturing, like bristling, dramatic snarling, etc., to indicate aggression were also seen as weak, and those were beheaded, as well. Even in the Japanese show rings, the traditional manner of showing Akitas is not to hand-stack them as we do with dogs in AKC shows, but to face two dogs off against each other, with just a foot or so of space between them, out at the end of a thick braided silk cord, and just let them stand there, straining at that cord, every muscle tense and ready for battle, silently and intensely staring each other in the eye. These face-offs have been known to go on for HOURS, so that the human handlers must be in tip-top physical condition, as well. Often the winner is declared when one dog briefly averts its eyes, seen as a sign of surrender. You have an animal that has been shaped literally by thousands of years of human bloodlust, on top of millions of years of natural evolution, to take no prisoners.

pitbulllady

 

[pitbulllady]

PBL--I didn't realize they were bred to kill dogs. I always thought they were used for taking down bears and wildcats and the like. Was the original intent to control wild dog populations or were they used more for dogfighting?

I know they're tough as nails and independent as all hell, and I have immense admiration and respect for them. In fact, I'm the only groomer in my shop who's comfortable working with them. Just as you say, they must be treated more like a cat than a dog. Disrespecting an Akita is a good way to find yourself in a world of hurt!

They were used for organized dog-fighting, which took place in a sealed cage, not a "pit" as with Western-style dog-fighting. There were no "scratches" or "time outs", no neutral corners, no handlers. Winners got to eat the flesh of the losers. When not fighting or being conditioned to fight, the dogs were more or less left to their own devices, to survive the best they could. Northern Honshu Island is a cold, mountainous, unforgiving terrain, much like the Canadian Rockies or southern Alaska, so it took a very tough, rugged animal to survive there. These dogs were used to hunt bears and other large game, just as American Pit Bull Terriers are used for that purpose here, but their primary use was as fighting dogs. One of the traits that resulted from their history as fighters-and I'm sure you've encountered this-is that Akitas keep a "poker face". They have the least variable facial expressions of any canine I've ever dealt with. The same face that says, "I love you so much and I'm so happy to see you" is almost indistinguishable from the face that says, "I'm going to kill you now". They seldom bark or give evidence of pain or discomfort. In the fights, dogs that barked, whimpered, yelped or made any sound beyond the occasional low growl were deemed cowardly, apt to quit and give up, and those dogs were killed immediately. Dogs which went through any of the typical canine posturing, like bristling, dramatic snarling, etc., to indicate aggression were also seen as weak, and those were beheaded, as well. Even in the Japanese show rings, the traditional manner of showing Akitas is not to hand-stack them as we do with dogs in AKC shows, but to face two dogs off against each other, with just a foot or so of space between them, out at the end of a thick braided silk cord, and just let them stand there, straining at that cord, every muscle tense and ready for battle, silently and intensely staring each other in the eye. These face-offs have been known to go on for HOURS, so that the human handlers must be in tip-top physical condition, as well. Often the winner is declared when one dog briefly averts its eyes, seen as a sign of surrender. You have an animal that has been shaped literally by thousands of years of human bloodlust, on top of millions of years of natural evolution, to take no prisoners.

pitbulllady

 

[PlaidJaguar]

Pit bulls aren't commonly used for hunting to my knowledge. Where is this primarily happening? Dogo Argentino, a similar breed, were developed and are still used to take down wild hogs (and they're excellent at it), but not the APBT. They were used in bear baiting at times, but that really isn't hunting.

Some Pits can be trained for hunting (just as certain dogs of any working breed can be trained to work in areas outside their specialty) but it was never a major function of the breed.