Does instar = number of molts?

Cmoore0475

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Hello all! New to the hobby, researching my first purchase! Most websites list species by leg lengths but a few I’ve found list everything by instar! Does instar mean how many times the animal has molted! Sorry if this is a stupid question!
 

Cmoore0475

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Thanks all the definitions of instar just had a stage in the life of an arthropod! It failed to mention between molts and I just wanted to double check! The site I was looking at had the Ts listed as like 6th instar and 8th instar! For newbies that is pretty useless info! Depending on species and growth that’s a whole wide range of size for someone new to the hobby to extrapolate!
 

NMTs

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Thanks all the definitions of instar just had a stage in the life of an arthropod! It failed to mention between molts and I just wanted to double check! The site I was looking at had the Ts listed as like 6th instar and 8th instar! For newbies that is pretty useless info! Depending on species and growth that’s a whole wide range of size for someone new to the hobby to extrapolate!
Yeah, instar doesn't really correspond to size, but it does help inform how far along in development a sling is. For example, 2i is normally the first instar that will be available for sale or transfer because that's when they start feeding - before that, they're just too fragile and haven't fed themselves yet. Seems like 3i and 4i are the most common sling sizes available, and any further along than that are well started and (theoretically) not as challenging to raise. If you want to know the actual size, you'd need to contact the seller and ask.
 

DustyD

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And different species of T do have different growth rates. Growth rates can further be affected by environment : temperature, amount of feeding, probably other things.
 

Wolfram1

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After an arthropod hatches from the egg it emerges as 1i, with each molt it advances by one instar.
However i have seen many cases were the Praelarvae/EWL (short for "Eggs With Legs") are skipped or counted as 0i. I am not sure why.
Every species also differs in starting sizes and growth per instar, there is even some variation within the species depending on the individual.

It is safe to say an 5i of an Acanthoscurria or Lasiodora sp. will be smaller than than an 5i of a Pamphobeteus sp. who start out much larger.
 

Arachnophobphile

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For me as a buyer not a breeder instar tells me how far along from EWL's a sling is.

So instar 2 or 2i informs me it is a very young sling. Some genus this can equate this to me 1i equals 1/8 possibly a little smaller, 2i 1/4.

So I have to decide if I want a sling that small/young. I already in the past and they are extremely fragile at this stage.

I never seen a seller list anything at 3i or above only up to 2i to give the buyer a short detail on what stage a sling is.

2i equals not recommended for new keepers getting their first tarantula.
 

Liquifin

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Instar is typically used to know how many molts a specimen has gone through. I do try to keep up with what instar is inbetween my specimens. But I wouldn't use it as a measurement size unit for a specimen as some specimens may have smaller or bigger jumps of growth whether it be different species or even sac mates in my experience.
 

Wolfram1

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For me as a buyer not a breeder instar tells me how far along from EWL's a sling is.

So instar 2 or 2i informs me it is a very young sling. Some genus this can equate this to me 1i equals 1/8 possibly a little smaller, 2i 1/4.

So I have to decide if I want a sling that small/young. I already in the past and they are extremely fragile at this stage.

I never seen a seller list anything at 3i or above only up to 2i to give the buyer a short detail on what stage a sling is.

2i equals not recommended for new keepers getting their first tarantula.
That is exactly why this is a bad system, everyone seems to use it differently! So you acctually have to ask the seller how he/she was applying it.

Not to mention while there is no catch all definition of the different stages of a spiders life cycle there is a table in the book " Biology of Spiders" that gives the definitions of caracteristics that define the different stages.
 

l4nsky

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That is exactly why this is a bad system, everyone seems to use it differently! So you acctually have to ask the seller how he/she was applying it.

Not to mention while there is no catch all definition of the different stages of a spiders life cycle there is a table in the book " Biology of Spiders" that gives the definitions of caracteristics that define the different stages.
I think the difference is mainly European vs American. Most American breeders/dealers/vendors go eggs, EWL, 1i, and then 2i. I believe Europeans use different designations. I think it's egg, N1, N2, and then L1. Once again, I think that's where the confusion comes from, where 2i is synonomous with L1 and people have a hard time with that mental conversion.
 

Wolfram1

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I think the difference is mainly European vs American. Most American breeders/dealers/vendors go eggs, EWL, 1i, and then 2i. I believe Europeans use different designations. I think it's egg, N1, N2, and then L1. Once again, I think that's where the confusion comes from, where 2i is synonomous with L1 and people have a hard time with that mental conversion.
Well instars are a fairly simple concept in the arthropod world and so far i have seen nothing that would suggest that we should ignore the definition and treat the Prelarvae (EWL) as anything but 1i. I honestly do not understand why you wouldn't, maybe i am ignorant of some detail but i can't think of anything. If so please enlighten me, i am tired of worrying about this constantly.

The normal spider life cycle goes as follows: Eggs > Prelarvae > Larvae > Nympths (1-n) (n = Subadult) > Adult

However many Theraphosidae spiders have prolonged posembrionic development inside the eggsack before they are ready to emerge, basically additional larval stages. Meaning the Larval stages are then numbered as well (L1, L2, and in some species even L3). The number of Nympth stages to sexual maturity can vary and the last nympth-stage would be what we commonly refer to as a Subadult.

In my recent posts on this topic i used a separate category for Subadults however upon rereading the literature, the stage is not mentioned there at all and the term therefore simply refers to the last Nymph stage.

Unlike Nympths the Larvae are characterised by Very limited mobility, simple claws, no poison canal in the cheliceral claw (fang), Spinnerets without Spigots, undifferentiated hairs and spines, and undeveloped sexual organs. The difference between Nympths and Adults is defined by the functionality of their sexual organs.
 

l4nsky

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Well instars are a fairly simple concept in the arthropod world and so far i have seen nothing that would suggest that we should ignore the definition and treat the Prelarvae (EWL) as anything but 1i. I honestly do not understand why you wouldn't, maybe i am ignorant of some detail but i can't think of anything. If so please enlighten me, i am tired of worrying about this constantly.
I would love some clarification on it all as well, but ultimately I don't think we'll get it. That would require a global standardization of a naming convention for all hobbyists/breeders/dealers. For most, the drive isn't there and they don't keep track of instars past 2i. It's sort of become a binary, yes or no, true or false question where the goal is to just figure out if they're independent and eating yet or not. It's like turning 21 in the States and being able to buy alchohol. After that milestone, why even track age lol.
 

Wolfram1

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Agreed, it just drives me nuts every time Dave or other Youtubers mention that they can already see the first nympths, upon opening an eggsack. When they are clearly referring to a Larva amongst EWL. :banghead:

And then i always worry if i am the one who got it wrong :hot:, despite double checking my books.

It is killing me. :dead:
 

Arachnophobphile

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That is exactly why this is a bad system, everyone seems to use it differently! So you acctually have to ask the seller how he/she was applying it.

Not to mention while there is no catch all definition of the different stages of a spiders life cycle there is a table in the book " Biology of Spiders" that gives the definitions of caracteristics that define the different stages.
Not in the U.S.

Sellers/breeders normally don't even use instar levels.

I've only seen a few sellers use it. I never seen them go above 2i. Instead size is commonly used instead like 1/8, 1/4 and .5 inches for example.

Insect sellers will use instar mainly. Sellers that sell mantids is really the only thing where instars are commonly used. I say commonly because as insects go that's all that I've searched for sale.

Instar is very rarely used with tarantula sellers if that helps.

As far as I'm concerned there is no larvae stage.

Egg - EWL's - baby tarantula, (sling)

I do not consider EWL a larvae stage. In almost all cases of larvae stages they are free roaming and eat which EWL's do not. However if I'm set straight by an arachnologist not an entomologist then I will learn something new.

 
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Wolfram1

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That is why EWL are called "prelarvae", as in "before-the-larval-stage" :rofl:


prelarvae are characterised by beeing non-mobile, having incomplete leg-segmentation, no hairs or spines, no claws, undifferentiated cheliceral claws, barely differentiated spinnerets and undeveloped sexual organs.

i just dont get why they would be skipped when it comes to instars?
 

Arachnophobphile

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Because there is no pre or larvae stage. You're thinking insects like flies are maggots before becoming a fly.
 

Wolfram1

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Maybe, it depends on why they were classified as such. Sadly i am no expert in that field. So all i can do is reference books.
Perhaps you are right and a different system would have been better suited in an evolutionary context.

I will see what i can find.
 

Arachnophobphile

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Maybe, it depends on why they were classified as such. Sadly i am no expert in that field. So all i can do is reference books.
Perhaps you are right and a different system would have been better suited in an evolutionary context.

I will see what i can find.
No no I never said I was correct. I'm usually always wrong lol.

This was discussed back in 2007 here on AB. Scroll down to what @Talkenlate04 replied with. I agree on what he is saying.

 

AphonopelmaTX

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Maybe, it depends on why they were classified as such. Sadly i am no expert in that field. So all i can do is reference books.
Perhaps you are right and a different system would have been better suited in an evolutionary context.

I will see what i can find.
No no I never said I was correct. I'm usually always wrong lol.

This was discussed back in 2007 here on AB. Scroll down to what @Talkenlate04 replied with. I agree on what he is saying.

To my understanding, you both are right, @Wolfram1 and @Arachnophobphile. The "embryo -> larval stages -> nymphal stages -> adult" naming scheme works well for the fast growing araneomorphae where-as in the mygalomorphae there is no larval stage. Some researchers use the condensed naming scheme, or some variation, of "embryo -> post-embryo -> nymph -> adult" for the mygalomorphae, where the nymphal stages are all spiderling stages up to adult, because they have not fully developed, but even then that doesn't quite work. What makes mygale development naming and classification so tricky is what to call the period between post-embyro and adult when the adult, or ultimate instar, is not clear in females.

For me, I like to use "embryo -> post-embryo -> immature instars -> ultimate instar -> post-ultimate instar" when classifying tarantula development. Where the stages of "eggs with legs" and the stage right after it where the baby spiders look like fully developed spiders but still feeding on the yolk sack are post-embryo stages. I don't consider the first immature instar to occur until the spiderlings are fully developed and eating on their own and acting like the adults. For others, first instar is the stage after "eggs with legs" which I don't think is right.
 
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