DKS.

[Dry Desert]

DKS in Tarantulas.

Why only tarantulas, and why always after a molt ???
Instead of searching around aimlessly for things to blame,
eg. Flea collars.
Aerosols
Bad feeders, etc. etc.
Always after a molt, never seems to happen any other time, and why only Tarantulas and not Scorpions or any other invert that has similar book lungs, respiratory systems etc.
I am convinced that DKS is due to a combination of Inadequate Humidity and Inadequate Ventilation.
The combination of these two important factors will cause dry molts, wet molts, and the T being unable to free itself from it's molt.
If you consider this not to be the case - why are keepers advised to place the T over a water dish, drip water into their mouths, or even try a recovery using ICU , with increased humidity.
By the time these attempts of recovery are tried it's far too late. Dehydration has run it's course, and with the added problem of inadequate ventilation , the stress caused to the T has compounded the problem causing a non perfect molt which then makes it impossible for the T to recover.

 

[viper69]

1. Dehydrated Ts do not necessarily get this
2. It’s not always after a molt either
3. I’ve wondered the same re scorpions
4. Seen setups with adequate ventilation too

No one knows why this happens

 

[Wolfram1]

Well its really not only tarantulas. It's a symptom anyway, not a sickness.

Personally i am convinced it is dehydration 90% of the time, the rest may be genetic, neurological, bacterial infections, fungal infections, parasites (prokaryotic or eukaryotic) or poisonings.

Bacterial and fungal growths are strengthened in high humidity and by bad airflow and while usually harmless they may have better chance of overpowering the spiders immune system and colonizing a spiders booklungs in those conditions...

 

[Dry Desert]

1. Dehydrated Ts do not necessarily get this
2. It’s not always after a molt either
3. I’ve wondered the same re scorpions
4. Seen setups with adequate ventilation too

No one knows why this happens

The few papers I've read also say they don't know what causes it, maybe because incorrect humidity and incorrect ventilation cannot be detected during any autopsy.

 

[viper69]

The few papers I've read also say they don't know what causes it, maybe because incorrect humidity and incorrect ventilation cannot be detected during any autopsy.

I don’t think it’s either personally

 

[Charliemum]

On Tom Moran's podcast he spoke to a tarantula vet that says DKS is a symptom not a disease.
The vet states that he thinks it's a symptom from dehydration usually, its why they say put the t over the water dish but can be caused by other underline issues. You can give a t fluids (or a trained vet can) by injection but it is extremely dangerous for the t so putting them over the water dish to force them to drink is the only option.
This symptom does come up in other animals but has other names depending on the animal your dealing with.
They go over it all in the podcast I have attached. I hope it helps and that you and your t's are OK , your post almost reads as desperate. Is all OK?

 

[Dry Desert]

On Tom Moran's podcast he spoke to a tarantula vet that says DKS is a symptom not a disease.
The vet states that he thinks it's a symptom from dehydration usually, its why they say put the t over the water dish but can be caused by other underline issues. You can give a t fluids (or a trained vet can) by injection but it is extremely dangerous for the t so putting them over the water dish to force them to drink is the only option.
This symptom does come up in other animals but has other names depending on the animal your dealing with.
They go over it all in the podcast I have attached. I hope it helps and that you and your t's are OK , your post almost reads as desperate. Is all OK?

Thanks for the concern, no not at all desperate.

Just another,
Heat mats cooked my T.


Bearded Dragons can drink from their anus.

Just all keeps going around in circles.

 

[Wolfram1]

Does anyone know whether non-dehydration dyskinesia-cases have been dissected and analyzed by a specialized veterinary pathologist for the types of bacteria/fungi that may have infiltrated the spiders respiratory system or even its haemolymph?

I bet there would be things to find.

 

[Dry Desert]

Does anyone know whether non-dehydration dyskinesia-cases have been dissected and analyzed by a specialized veterinary pathologist for the types of bacteria/fungi that may have infiltrated the spiders respiratory system or even its haemolymph?

I bet there would be things to find.

Scientists have dissected Millipedes and found Coco fibre in the gut - so obviously it's the Coco fibre that's caused impaction, then death.

NOT that food in the gut had not been digested due to the temperatures being too low, then causing the Coco fibre to backup behind the undigested food. Which was established later, by more experienced people.

The Coco fibre would normally have been passed.

 

[Charliemum]

Thanks for the concern, no not at all desperate.

Just another,
Heat mats cooked my T.
Bearded Dragons can drink from their anus.

Just all keeps going around in circles.

I am sorry for your loss
I hate heat mats for t's, it doesn't matter how good they are or how good the thermostat attached is they have too high a chance of malfunctioning for my liking.
I am a central heating and oil filled radiator for extra cold days kinda girl. It isn't cheap but worth the money for the safety of my t's imo.
My SO uses heat tape on panels on the walls behind the shelves for his t's, there are lots of options out there.
Hopefully you will find something that works for you and your floofers and sorry for your loss again, 100% the worst part of keeping imo.

 

[Wolfram1]

Scientists have dissected Millipedes and found Coco fibre in the gut - so obviously it's the Coco fibre that's caused impaction, then death.

NOT that food in the gut had not been digested due to the temperatures being too low, then causing the Coco fibre to backup behind the undigested food. Which was established later, by more experienced people.

The Coco fibre would normally have been passed.

true but thats really not a very detailed analysis, how about the makeup of the microbiota in said gut? When a human has blood work done, the cells are analyzed and the spread of immune cells present as well as other anomalies can give a picture of what may be wrong. Further the blood is chemically analyzed etc. etc. all painting a picture your doctor will analyze and interpret. What i am trying to say is that said finding is not very detailed, for all we know it may just have starved to death by failing to digest the nutrient-poor fibrous material.
It is not uncommon for impaction to cause inflammation, further exasperating the impaction and the resulting rotting mass starting to cause sepsis leading to death, the question beeing what caused the impaction in the first place. Anyway i am no veterinary pathologist so i am sure i got some parts wrong, would be interesting to hear an experts opinion.

Back to arachnids.

It may sound grusome but i would love to know what a book-lung tissue sample would reveal... if a spider had been kept in horribly wet and stuffy conditions vs. one that has been kept properly with good ventilation. Do spiders with dyskinesia show signs of bakterial infection? Of inflammation of the respiratory system or gastro-intestinal tract?

Or does a moldy substrate and the spores impact the booklungs and if so how?

As far as i have seen no work has been done in that direction. If i am wrong i would love to read about it.

 

[Dry Desert]

true but thats really not a very detailed analysis, how about the makeup of the microbiota in said gut? When a human has blood work done, the cells are analyzed and the spread of immune cells present as well as other anomalies can give a picture of what may be wrong. Further the blood is chemically analyzed etc. etc. all painting a picture your doctor will analyze and interpret. What i am trying to say is that said finding is not very detailed, for all we know it may just have starved to death by failing to digest the nutrient-poor fibrous material.
It is not uncommon for impaction to cause inflammation, further exasperating the impaction and the resulting rotting mass starting to cause sepsis leading to death, the question beeing what caused the impaction in the first place. Anyway i am no veterinary pathologist so i am sure i got some parts wrong, would be interesting to hear an experts opinion.

Back to arachnids.

It may sound grusome but i would love to know what a book-lung tissue sample would reveal... if a spider had been kept in horribly wet and stuffy conditions vs. one that has been kept properly with good ventilation. Do spiders with dyskinesia show signs of bakterial infection? Of inflammation of the respiratory system or gastro-intestinal tract?

Or does a moldy substrate and the spores impact the booklungs and if so how?

As far as i have seen no work has been done in that direction. If i am wrong i would love to read about it.

Insufficient humility is not a damp mouldy substrate.

Something I learnt many years ago as an engineer.

When trying to ascertain the cause of a fault, always look at the simple cause rather than delving into quantum physics.

 

[Charliemum]

As far as i have seen no work has been done in that direction. If i am wrong i would love to read about it.

I don't think there ever would be, no one who cares for these creatures would purposely keep a t in conditions like that and risk the t's health and or life.

 

[Wolfram1]

i agree, but "bacterial infection" for example is a simple explenation, yet hard to proove/quantify.

i know i am dreaming as it would be way too expensive to study, i just dont think we will ever get anywhere with the dks discussion if those bases are not covered.

so all we can point to is dehydration, bad setups and poison.

and i have actually had one spiderling recover from fairly strong dyskinesia by rehousing it into a dry, extremly well ventilated box, placing it on its back and dribbling water on its mouth....

and time, lots of time

it was caused as @Dry Desert said, by beeing kept in with poor ventilation and a few days of mold i had not discovered spreading from a half eaten prey.

i'd say there is no one cure, but rather depending on the causes different methods may help

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

To begin a discussion about DKS, one must define it and provide an accompanying video of the condition first. The term has been around for so long now with no proper definition that it is practically meaningless.

 

[Dry Desert]

To begin a discussion about DKS, one must define it and provide an accompanying video of the condition first. The term has been around for so long now with no proper definition that it is practically meaningless.

So is your statement.

 

[LilithArachne]

It makes me sad. I would totally donate to a study on it so we can understand DKS better and hopefully save tarantulas that suffer from it.

 

[Tbone192]

Insufficient humility is not a damp mouldy substrate.

Something I learnt many years ago as an engineer.

When trying to ascertain the cause of a fault, always look at the simple cause rather than delving into quantum physics.

Occam's razor, the simplest answer is typically the best answer.

 

[IntermittentSygnal]

All we have to go off of is what we have. Folks have posted spiders with a DKS-type symptom where we can see lack of ventilation and/or are told of frequent misting and/or see signs of dehydration or see the effects of giving water. We have all seen the effect of poison on an invertebrate. Is this enough for a study? Of course not, but this is what we have to try to help these spiders. Boina’s thread on what helped, what didn’t help, what may help others is invaluable, as are the others who have posted their experiences. Until there is a proper study, our experiences are all we have.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

To begin a discussion about DKS, one must define it and provide an accompanying video of the condition first. The term has been around for so long now with no proper definition that it is practically meaningless.

Ive seen the exact same Lost ability to eat and drink same as dks in my last 4 losses. Yet without the spasms of dks. lost control and they kept looking dead I poked one still alive it tried to bite me . I had no video. camera to record DKS. Last time I delt with it .