couple of quick questions - orchid bark for scorps, perlite vs vermiculite & silk plants ...

[BladeGypsy]

I went to the local, large, garden store today (Tagawa in Parker, Colorado) and I picked up a few things that I thought may be handy in my invert enclosures...


1) I am getting a true Emperor Scorpion tomorrow from a friend...
It is approx. 4.5-5'' in length, with its tale in the upright position.

For its substrate, I picked up some orchid bark to mix with my Eco Earth Coco fiber and also plan to add Sphagnum moss around its hide.

BUT when I purchased it (the orchid bark), this orchid bark was mixed with a porous white rock-like material that I believe to be commonly called "perlite/sponge rock". I explained what I needed the material for and the gentleman that helped me out at the garden center, after I asked, confirmed that there were no chemicals or additives added to the mix and that the white material we were picking out was an all-natural lava rock like material. I picked the sponge rock out and purchased just the orchid bark. Is this perlite/sponge rock the same as vermiculite?
And, more importantly, Is this orchid bark safe to mix with coco fiber for my scorpion after removing the perlite?
Should I clean this bark in some way before applying it to the scorpion's new enclosure? And, if so, how?

Though I have 9 T's, this is is my first scorpion ever, so please be gentle on me...


2) While I was at the garden center I noticed there were some silk plants there.
I purchased two roses as well as an orchid stem...
Is there any reason I CANNOT use these plants for my T and/or other invert enclosures? - ...Providing the silk/fake plants DO NOT have sharp metal/pointy physical components to them, is there any reason I should only only buy animal specific branded fake plants/ones not from a garden center or hobby store?

Any additional advice or experiences is appreciated.

Thank you, Gypsy

Pics:

 

[centipeedle]

If the roses have thorns, you might want to consider removing the thorns or using different plants.

 

[draconisj4]

Personally, I don't use any silk plants not specifically made for animal use. I might be paranoid but if I don't know that the materials or dyes used in regular silk flowers are safe for my animals I'd rather not take the chance. I don't know about the orchid bark, I've never used it.

 

[BladeGypsy]

No thorns on the roses. Thank you for the replies.

 

[The Snark]

@BladeGypsy Your original post reflects a serious problem for consumers in numerous areas: Is perlite or vermiculite safe for xxxxx and under what circumstances?

First and foremost, truth in advertising or a lack thereof. Manufacturers will use names and terms that are well known in order to sell products, without regard to what their raw materials actually are.

- 'Orchid bark'. Typically, the bark and shavings from fir trees. Loaded into trucks by the ton at pulp mills to be packaged and sold to consumers. Pulp mills don't care what the soft woods are that come off the log trucks as long as they can make paper out of it. So there is an excellent chance there is pine tree bark and shavings in there as well. Of course pine and often fir should always be avoided by animal keepers. 'Orchid Bark' is a fancy pretty name that helps sell products.

-Vermiculite. Another common name that consumers relate to. Providing the material is in fact pure uncontaminated vermiculite, asbestos is commonly found in the raw material. Several MSDS are out there warning people about the presence of this form of asbestos, the worst kind. Think of book lungs crawling over the stuff.

-Perlite. It is glass. A silicate compound. Diatomaceous materials are commonly found mixed up in the raw material processed to make perlite. Natures pesticide in your terrariums, anyone? Again, a fancy nicey name consumers relate to that helps sell products.

Consumer beware. Money rules. The health of the consumer or their pets rarely enters into things and depends upon the capabilities of government consumer protection efforts. And as we can see very clearly with the present government administration, there is no rigid standards and safety regulations that large corporations can't find loopholes around, or the regulatory agency's can't subvert or otherwise blow holes in. PROFITS BEFORE PEOPLE!

To quote a description in the book Paper Moon, 'He could sell rats assholes to blind men, calling them diamond rings.'

 

[BladeGypsy]

Snark, thank you for your reply.

I do understand that "Perlite" as from Wikipedia "is an amorphous volcanic glass that has a relatively high water content, typically formed by the hydration of obsidian. It occurs naturally and has the unusual property of greatly expanding when heated sufficiently. It is an industrial mineral and a commercial product useful for its low density after processing."

I got my scorpion and made its enclosure up before anyone had replied to this thread.

But, before adding the bark to the enclosure, I did inquire at the exotic pet store where I purchased the scorpion from about the perlite mixed with "orchid bark" and explained where I had got it from, etc. I asked him if he know what perlite was and he explained that perlite he used as incubation for his snake eggs (I know nothing to speak of about snakes), but stated that as long as there were no added chemicals to the bark with perlite, that it should be good. And in fact, liked the bigger bark pieces in comparison to the (I believe fir bark) that is commercially offered in the pet trade in a bag.

There are no sharp pieces in this bark I picked up - just the bark you see pictured that I posted. If you need better pics, please let me know. (And, the bark with perlite was purchased in bulk from the garden center, it did not come out of a branded bag of any kind)...



Here is my current setup for the Emperor Scorpion, he has been in this new enclosure for about 48 hours...

I thoroughly rinsed the "orchid bark" before putting it into the enclosure. I admit, I'm that I'm still LEARNING, and I respectfully feel we always are learning if we care to take the time to try an educate ourselves on any subject.

So, I suppose I will now remove the current bark???.... and buy the animal branded fir bark (I recall seeing Zoo Med "Premium Repti Bark"), or get rid of the bark all together and just use coco fiber substrate only, or?.....

 

[BladeGypsy]

Also, for whatever it's worth, I do know of experienced T keepers that do use vermiculite (as well as other substrates purchased from garden/home improvement stores) in their invert enclosures on purpose, including Mr. Tom Moran.

So, IDK....now you all have me more confused...

I truly do care about my animals. So, again, please help me...
What should I do now?

 

[The Snark]

Welcome to the world of consumer nightmares. There are no absolutes, harmless or lethal. There will always be stories of using X without any problems. Then last year I read about a global mining concern in Russia that plowed straight through a layer loaded with arsenical compounds to get at the vermiculite, mixing it all together.

Also, keep in mind, many consumer attestations of how wonderful a product is are DUMBER THAN DIRT: My dog wore that flea collar for years and was perfectly healthy! Brilliantly scientific. And what was the age of the dog when he died, and what factors were present that contributed to his shorter than normal life span?


Just be aware of the hazards. Minimize them whenever possible. Personally, I look at the overall picture. Silicate compounds, powdered glass, aren't a real good idea in a home environment. With any woody product, submerge a sample in water and boil it. If an oil forms on the surface nature has made a waterproof material that has a good chance of resisting or poisoning potential pest infestations.

Think things through.

 

[BladeGypsy]

I understand that there are "no absolutes"...
And I am most certainly trying to "think things through"...

The bark, which is fir bark, was thoroughly rinsed after it was separated from the natural perlite material...

So, should I remove the current bark in the enclosure or not?

And if I do, replace it with this: https://www.chewy.com/zoo-med-premium-repti-bark-natural/dp/123789?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=f&utm_content=Zoo Med&utm_term=&gclid=CjwKCAjw8uLcBRACEiwAaL6MSePomHqW7a1AF_POp2mOz180BSFYJRFeyABvR-AQ0KagHAD7nt4SshoCHYcQAvD_BwE

Or not?

 

[The Snark]

I'd say pure fir bark is safe as long as it cannot be ingested. If tiny pieces enter an animals gut they are there forever. Insoluble and indigestible.

 

[The Snark]

BTW, the Reptibark is just plain stupid. Reptiles that eat with their tongue such as lizards can easily ingest fragments of the bark. Think of a human eating hair or a rag. Your friend for life, or until the doc hacks it out of you.

 

[BladeGypsy]

Hi Snark.
Thank you again for your reply.


Ok, it sounds like you are saying you suggest that it is okay to leave the current bark in my scorpions enclosure then?...


For what it's worth...regarding, "Silicate compounds, powdered glass, aren't a real good idea in a home environment."...
(I do realize that my scorpion is a tropical variety and not a desert variety.)
But, still, to my understanding both tropical and desert species of scorpions have book lungs.
And, desert species naturally live on sand which contains silica...
Please explain a bit further so I may understand better.


I appreciate you suggesting to boil a sample of wood in water. But, just because "an oil forms on the surface nature has made a waterproof material that has a good chance of resisting or poisoning potential pest infestations" - that (an oil forming on the surface of the boiling water) does not necessarily mean that it is not acceptable to use as a substrate or hide material for inverts that do not eat wood and that are also not natural pests to the tree/wood that is being used in the enclosure (such as tarantulas and scorpions). Correct?


Best wishes.

 

[BladeGypsy]

BTW, the Reptibark is just plain stupid. Reptiles that eat with their tongue such as lizards can easily ingest fragments of the bark. Think of a human eating hair or a rag. Your friend for life, or until the doc hacks it out of you.

I only have tarantulas and this one scorpion now. But, that is really interesting and something I would not have thought of.

 

[The Snark]

But, still, to my understanding both tropical and desert species of scorpions have book lungs.
And, desert species naturally live on sand which contains silica...
Please explain a bit further so I may understand better.

I'd have to hand this over to the experts on specific animal physiology. Way too many factors that could be involved. Many animals live and thrive in certain areas than another species of the same genus find hazardous.

that (an oil forming on the surface of the boiling water) does not necessarily mean that it is not acceptable

It's just a general rule of thumb. Numerous plants produce oils. The commonest reason for the oil production is pest resistance, be it fungi, bacterial, or animal. With some, such as pines, it is all three. Think of it as a dog eat dog free for all. The plant adapts, producing resistance. The organism animal adapts to tolerate the resistance, and so it goes, eon after eon. Eucalyptol is an anathema to nearly all organisms but the koala thrives on the stuff. Toss some euc leaves in a cattle feeding trough, instant bloat and grab the knife. Strange weird amazing world.