Citharognathus Hosei V. Phormingochilus Pennellhewlettorum

[Kibosh]

Citharognathus Hosei and Phormingochilus Pennellhewlettorum...
curious about these two T's. Both have the common name Borneo Bat Eater, but that means nothing. I know in terms of care they are typical asian arboreals. They both look very similar. What are their differences? Scientifically what do we know about them or their classification? Are their similarities simply convergent evolution?

 

[Tarantuland]

I've also noticed they both have that common name. They're both in the family of Ornithoctoninae but from what I just looked up it seems the differences are local and leg sizes, which would imply convergent evolution. I've never kept either though

 

[BoyFromLA]

Price difference is there for sure.

 

[Kibosh]

Price difference is there for sure.

No kidding. Just very confusing to me. Also kind of looks like the "Hati Hati".

Same colorations, same behaviors, different sizes, wildly different costs.

 

[BoyFromLA]

No kidding.

Price wise, Phormingochilus Pennellhewlettorum costs almost double than Citharognathus Hosei.

I do not know why.

 

[l4nsky]

Despite what their common name suggests, these are two very different T's. For one, they're both described species in two separate genera. Two is size. Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum is one of the smallest Phormingochilus sp, while Citharognathus hosei can reach sizes of 8". P. pennellhewlettorum also has a reputation for being extremely defensive, even for a Phormingochilus. I think the difference in price comes down to the backstory of P. pennellhewlettorum. This species was discovered by a tarantula hobbyist and described within the past decade whereas C. hosei was described by Pocock in 1895.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Despite what their common name suggests, these are two very different T's. For one, they're both described species in two separate genera. Two is size. Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum is one of the smallest Phormingochilus sp, while Citharognathus hosei can reach sizes of 8". P. pennellhewlettorum also has a reputation for being extremely defensive, even for a Phormingochilus. I think the difference in price comes down to the backstory of P. pennellhewlettorum. This species was discovered by a tarantula hobbyist and described within the past decade whereas C. hosei was described by Pocock in 1895.

Very interesting. Thanks for the info! I was wondering about this.

 

[Kibosh]

Despite what their common name suggests, these are two very different T's. For one, they're both described species in two separate genera. Two is size. Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum is one of the smallest Phormingochilus sp, while Citharognathus hosei can reach sizes of 8". P. pennellhewlettorum also has a reputation for being extremely defensive, even for a Phormingochilus. I think the difference in price comes down to the backstory of P. pennellhewlettorum. This species was discovered by a tarantula hobbyist and described within the past decade whereas C. hosei was described by Pocock in 1895.

Wow. Thanks. pretty much summed up all my curiosities. Lol

 

[l4nsky]

Very interesting. Thanks for the info! I was wondering about this.

Wow. Thanks. pretty much summed up all my curiosities. Lol

Anytime. The story on P. pennellhewlettorum is really interesting and worth reading about. If memory serves me correctly, the hobbyist spent something like $50k on expeditions over years to try and find a new species and in the end, an AF fell to the ground in front of him while it was being attacked by a predatory wasp. Both species have been on my bucket list for awhile. I think I'm about to cross C. hosei off the list as the price has fallen to an acceptable level for me, but I'm going to wait on P. pennellhewlettorum until some breeders have success with the species in the states.

 

[Kibosh]

Anytime. The story on P. pennellhewlettorum is really interesting and worth reading about. If memory serves me correctly, the hobbyist spent something like $50k on expeditions over years to try and find a new species and in the end, an AF fell to the ground in front of him while it was being attacked by a predatory wasp. Both species have been on my bucket list for awhile. I think I'm about to cross C. hosei off the list as the price has fallen to an acceptable level for me, but I'm going to wait on P. pennellhewlettorum until some breeders have success with the species in the states.

Yeah I have only found one dealer currently selling both online and the price tag is a little rich for my blood. Hopefully a few breeders are more successful here in the U.S.

 

[JWspaz]

I found a couple shops, fear not and ersus spider shop both for 199. But one is local to me and I might just get one p.penn

 

[Arborealguy1990]

Citharognathus Hosei and Phormingochilus Pennellhewlettorum...
curious about these two T's. Both have the common name Borneo Bat Eater, but that means nothing. I know in terms of care they are typical asian arboreals. They both look very similar. What are their differences? Scientifically what do we know about them or their classification? Are their similarities simply convergent evolution?

C. Hosei is actually the Borneo Bat eater and the Pennell is the Bario bat eater for the common names

 

[l4nsky]

C. Hosei is actually the Borneo Bat eater and the Pennell is the Bario bat eater for the common names

Currently, yes. Keep in mind though the difference that time makes. At the time in January of 2021, both species were still relatively new to the hobby and there were a few vendors that did list both species as "Borneo Bat Eater" for the common name.

Despite what their common name suggests, these are two very different T's. For one, they're both described species in two separate genera. Two is size. Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum is one of the smallest Phormingochilus sp, while Citharognathus hosei can reach sizes of 8". P. pennellhewlettorum also has a reputation for being extremely defensive, even for a Phormingochilus. I think the difference in price comes down to the backstory of P. pennellhewlettorum. This species was discovered by a tarantula hobbyist and described within the past decade whereas C. hosei was described by Pocock in 1895.

I know this is a zombie thread at this point, but, because of the archival nature of these boards and the fact that future hobbyists might use these threads for research on some of these more uncommon species, I feel compelled to correct myself for the record and to share what I've learned since I started researching both of these species over two years ago.

After talking to @Scourge about C. hosei and P. pennellhewlettorum here in this thread, discussing P. pennellhewlettorum in detail with @Mark Pennell here in this thread, and raising two C. hosei to maturity, I can say I was quite wrong about the size statement. At the time, I was referencing what little anecdotal information I could find as both of these species were even more uncommon back then as they are today.

I've now raised two MM C. hosei (still waiting for the last unsexed one to molt) and they are decidedly a much smaller species than 8" DLS. Both of my males are around 4" to 5" DLS. I can't get a better estimate than that because they are rather reclusive, even by Ornithoctoninae sp standards lol. When I've determined the sex of my third specimen of C. hosei, I'll update this thread as well, but IMO, I don't see a MF ever really being over 6" DLS at any point. I've also acquired a small group of Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum that I'm raising for a future project, so I'm excited about that potential opportunity.

 

[Arborealguy1990]

Currently, yes. Keep in mind though the difference that time makes. At the time in January of 2021, both species were still relatively new to the hobby and there were a few vendors that did list both species as "Borneo Bat Eater" for the common name.


I know this is a zombie thread at this point, but, because of the archival nature of these boards and the fact that future hobbyists might use these threads for research on some of these more uncommon species, I feel compelled to correct myself for the record and to share what I've learned since I started researching both of these species over two years ago.

After talking to @Scourge about C. hosei and P. pennellhewlettorum here in this thread, discussing P. pennellhewlettorum in detail with @Mark Pennell here in this thread, and raising two C. hosei to maturity, I can say I was quite wrong about the size statement. At the time, I was referencing what little anecdotal information I could find as both of these species were even more uncommon back then as they are today.

I've now raised two MM C. hosei (still waiting for the last unsexed one to molt) and they are decidedly a much smaller species than 8" DLS. Both of my males are around 4" to 5" DLS. I can't get a better estimate than that because they are rather reclusive, even by Ornithoctoninae sp standards lol. When I've determined the sex of my third specimen of C. hosei, I'll update this thread as well, but IMO, I don't see a MF ever really being over 6" DLS at any point. I've also acquired a small group of Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum that I'm raising for a future project, so I'm excited about that potential opportunity.

True that

 

[CEC]

Despite what their common name suggests, these are two very different T's. For one, they're both described species in two separate genera. Two is size. Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum is one of the smallest Phormingochilus sp, while Citharognathus hosei can reach sizes of 8". P. pennellhewlettorum also has a reputation for being extremely defensive, even for a Phormingochilus. I think the difference in price comes down to the backstory of P. pennellhewlettorum. This species was discovered by a tarantula hobbyist and described within the past decade whereas C. hosei was described by Pocock in 1895.

Agreed..., well except for the 8" DLS claim, that seems quite suspect to me. Do you have or know any pics of one next to a ruler?
This girl here is an adult at whopping 4" Yes, many Theraphosidae mature many molts prior to reaching max leg length so I can't say for sure, yet but I have a growing suspension these are actually relatively small for an arboreal Ornithoctoninae species.
...Or maybe I'm just talking outta my rear end an these are massive tree spiders making my AF only half her potential size.

 

[Theraphosid Research Team]

Some years ago I could examine the holotype of Citharognathus hosei, the specimen that Reginald Ines Pocock had for his description. This species differs by some VERY interesting characteristics clearly from all other tree-inhabiting species of the subfamily Ornithoctoninae. As part of the description and correction of the currently misclassified other Citharognathus species, we will address these exorbitant features. However, this species has nothing to do with Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum and is clearly different from that species in every respect.

 

[l4nsky]

Agreed..., well except for the 8" DLS claim, that seems quite suspect to me. Do you have or know any pics of one next to a ruler?
This girl here is an adult at whopping 4" Yes, many Theraphosidae mature many molts prior to reaching max leg length so I can't say for sure, yet but I have a growing suspension these are actually relatively small for an arboreal Ornithoctoninae species.
...Or maybe I'm just talking outta my rear end an these are massive tree spiders making my AF only half her potential size.

Lol nope, I'm afraid I was the one using my posterior for conversation . When I originally started looking into C. hosei, few vendors carried them and very, very few people were keeping them. My initial look at Pocock's measurements showed the type female was only around 5" DLS IIRC, but I couldn't find any reference to maturity of the specimen. At the same time, one of the few well established, trustworthy (IMO) vendors at the time who had them in stock was using the 8" DLS measurement in their descriptions. Between these two data points, I marked it as a possibility they could hit 8" DLS. I've been proved/informed I was wrong several times since then lol (links in my previous post).

Some years ago I could examine the holotype of Citharognathus hosei, the specimen that Reginald Ines Pocock had for his description. This species differs by some VERY interesting characteristics clearly from all other tree-inhabiting species of the subfamily Ornithoctoninae. As part of the description and correction of the currently misclassified other Citharognathus species, we will address these exorbitant features. However, this species has nothing to do with Phormingochilus pennellhewlettorum and is clearly different from that species in every respect.

Oh, I sooo look forward to that publication. I always found it suspect how the genus had only two described species that were so geographically seperated.