Brown Recluse Bite?

[crittercurious]

I'm wondering if this is a brown recluse bite.
Symptoms:
-Felt a sharp sting on toe (like a bee but hurt more)
-Red, swollen, itchy and painful for a day
-30 hours later big blisters at puncture site
-approx. 5 days later open ulcer (big)
-necrotizing wound (Dr at emergency said it was a spider with necrotizing venom)-given antibiotics and antihistamine
-14 days later still open wound looks a tiny bit better
-Bitten in Vancouver, BC Canada where there are not supposed to be brown recluse spider but some bites have been reported....any ideas? TIA
-BTW I have photos but they are really disgusting....

 

[Ungoliant]

I'm wondering if this is a brown recluse bite.

If this occurred in Canada, it is extremely unlikely to be the result of a brown recluse bite, because Canada is well outside of the range of the brown recluse.

See Causes of Necrotic Wounds other than Brown Recluse Spider Bites.

Myth: Doctors can always tell what spider bit you from the bite alone.

Fact: If they could, there wouldn't be hundreds of cases annually mis-diagnosed as "brown recluse bite" in regions where the spiders being blamed don't exist.

There are so many possible causes of bite-like sores that even an expert on venoms and arthropod bites can't always be sure of the cause in a particular case. One such expert, the late Darwin Vest, has been a missing person, presumed dead, since June 1999. Medical students don't even get one full day's training in spider-related topics. Researchers in Colorado and Michigan have developed techniques to diagnose bites by biochemical lab work, but currently few labs offer this service, which only works if done within a week after the bite occurs. I myself am often asked to advise people with "mystery bites" but I can't; my specialty is spiders, not bitten humans.

The moral of this is, if you see a spider bite you (an event of once-in-a-lifetime rarity), or any other biting or stinging creature for that matter, save the specimen for an arachnologist (and only an arachnologist!) to examine. Don't give it to someone who knows nothing about spiders.

 

[The Snark]

Causes of Necrotic Wounds other than Brown Recluse Spider Bites.

That's another one that needs to be sticky.

Vetter's excellent article fails to mention numerous other causes or contributors to necrotic wounds. Other possible common contributors include poor diet, alcoholism, cancer, liver disease and genetic disorders.
Also see http://www.hematology.org/Patients/Bleeding.aspx

OP, please post photos. But do this: Add a label,
DISGUSTING PICTURES
then
[ spoiler]
images go here
and close with
[ /spoiler]
Do not add a space as I did after each first square brackets.
What I typed will look like this:

Spoiler

images go here
and close with

 

[crittercurious]

If this occurred in Canada, it is extremely unlikely to be the result of a brown recluse bite, because Canada is well outside of the range of the brown recluse.

See Causes of Necrotic Wounds other than Brown Recluse Spider Bites.

The doctor said nothing about a brown recluse spider. He said the bite contained necrotic venom. Any idea of other spiders in BC whose bite would produce those symptoms? Blisters, followed by open ulcer and necrosis?

It was a bite for sure. I'm not sure if you read the original post. SHARP PAINFUL STING... then blisters, then an ulcer....NOT A BAD DIET LOL

That's another one that needs to be sticky.

Vetter's excellent article fails to mention numerous other causes or contributors to necrotic wounds. Other possible common contributors include poor diet, alcoholism, cancer, liver disease and genetic disorders.
Also see http://www.hematology.org/Patients/Bleeding.aspx

OP, please post photos. But do this: Add a label,
DISGUSTING PICTURES
then
[ spoiler]
images go here
and close with
[ /spoiler]
Do not add a space as I did after each first square brackets.
What I typed will look like this:

Spoiler

images go here
and close with

DISGUSTING PICTURES






It was FOR SURE A BITE. Any ideas which spider could have done this? Vancouver, Canada. Blisters, and necrotizing venom.....

 

[The Snark]

Not much to go on since the wounds were debrided and any necrosis has been removed. However, the patient has poor profusion and a tendency towards edema which would significantly contribute to the blistering. I assume the physician prescribed you elevating your lower extremities and applied Coban or other profusion promoting dressing?
(Noted, pitting edema where the dressing was placed above the big toe.)

As for the mechanism of injury, the blistering is unusual. Do you have a history of reactions to bee/hornet/wasp stings or ant bites?

By the way, what antibiotic(s) were you prescribed? One possible cause of injury is erysipelas caused by Streptococcus. Was there a fever or any other symptoms? Did the doc order a culture?

 

[dangerforceidle]

There is no spider native to Canada which has a venom that would do this.

 

[The Snark]

The doctor said nothing about a brown recluse spider. He said the bite contained necrotic venom.

Wording, semantics count here. The doc could have said the bite 'is reminiscent of' or 'indicative of' or similar, or he ran dozens of extremely sophisticated tests in a very short time frame and got very lucky, or he was talking out his behind. To isolate and categorically identify those few milli or micrograms of venom among all the tissues and body fluids is the proverbial needle in the haystack. Five days is more than enough time for devascularized flesh to start rotting from any of dozens of bacterial infections.
Unfortunately, it seems all too common for physicians to jump to such conclusions.

 

[NYAN]

It was FOR SURE A BITE. Any ideas which spider could have done this? Vancouver, Canada. Blisters, and necrotizing venom.....

I don’t know of any Canadian spider which could do this. Determining something is a bite like that isn’t possible unless you saw the spider which bit you. Go to a specialist.

 

[Ungoliant]

It was FOR SURE A BITE. Any ideas which spider could have done this? Vancouver, Canada. Blisters, and necrotizing venom.....

The only medically significant spiders that are native to Canada are black widows, but they don't cause symptoms like this. (You often don't even feel the bite itself.)

I am not a doctor, but I am wondering if a secondary infection may have set in.

 

[NYAN]

I am not a doctor, but I am wondering if a secondary infection may have set in.

I avoid diagnosing anything as anything for that reason. I just tell them that is probably isn’t a spider, or rarely, that it could be and that they should see a doctor if they feel it’s necessary.

 

[Pernicious]

I say hobo spider. I live a little south of you in Washington state and while the recluse is around .i have been bit by both and recently... most people think they r the dane spider but the hobo is a invasive species and if its livin here i dont see why it couldnt do it at the neighbor's?!! A recluse bite will go the sise of a pin hole to a silver dollar in less than 5 min had to lance it immediately. where the hobo is sneaky n slow swelling with decay under the skin working out ...of course thats just from what i have seen and experienced hope it helps

 

[NYAN]

I say hobo spider. I live a little south of you in Washington state and while the recluse is around .i have been bit by both and recently... most people think they r the dane spider but the hobo is a invasive species and if its livin here i dont see why it couldnt do it at the neighbor's?!! A recluse bite will go the sise of a pin hole to a silver dollar in less than 5 min had to lance it immediately. where the hobo is sneaky n slow swelling with decay under the skin working out ...of course thats just from what i have seen and experienced hope it helps

First off, hobo spiders are harmless to humans. This has been proven by fairly recently analysis of their venom, the absence of any confirmed bites which suggests otherwise and that they aren’t known to be harmful in Europe, where they have lived with humans for thousands of years. The brown recluse does not live in Washington or in any state/country that it boarders. As for the necrosis caused by a recluse bite, it happens over a WAY longer period of time than 5 mins. It’s more like 2 days.

What makes you think that you were bitten by a spider that’s doesnt live within 1000 miles of you?

 

[Pernicious]

Tell that to my knee .i almost lost it to a recluse bite last year on a house call .most info on spider locations is complete bs .. they have been in washington and northern Washington for awhile now . And as far as time i watched it grow and lanced it myself .

 

[NYAN]

Tell that to my knee .i almost lost it to a recluse bite last year on a house call .most info on spider locations is complete bs .. they have been in washington and northern Washington for awhile now . And as far as time i watched it grow and lanced it myself .

I would, but your knee wouldn’t say anything back. Did you see the spider which bit you? The info on the brown recluse spider’s range has been established from 80 years of specimens being collected. There have been very very few populations found outside of their range. I can think of a very small number in Florida and possibly in Michigan. Please provide citations which say that there are breeding populations in Washington to prove me wrong.

 

[Pernicious]

Thats a solid request!. As far as the spider i did see it and would put my life on it as a recluse it was medically recorded and quite serious. I of course have no proof of them breeding here so i will definitely pump breaks right there to save me from sounding to stupid. there is however multiple recorded bites and sightings in washington and those arent hard to find. I definitely dont want to argure written facts . But the reality is it happened to me so there is no reason to think it couldnt happen elsewhere .

 

[NYAN]

there is however multiple recorded bites and sightings in washington and those arent hard to find. I definitely dont want to argure written facts . But the reality is it happened to me so there is no reason to think it couldnt happen elsewhere .

Okay, so you saw the spider in the act of biting you, knew it was Loxosceles species, and developed a reaction? As for the multiple recorded bites you mention, I’m sure it’s common to find someone who thinks they were bitten or knows someone who thinks they were. I’m also pretty sure that they are not due to a spider which not only isn’t native, but has only been found in your state maybe half a dozen times.

 

[The Snark]

Can I have a coconut for every staph/strep/leptospirosis loaded puncture wound and attributed to a spider bite? I want to corner the copra market.

 

[Pernicious]

I litteraly squished it in my overalls walked out to my van and looked at it. yeah maybe 5 min wasnt right but i swear it took less than ten min to get huge and if my wife wasnt asleep id get her photos of the injuries that resulted from it
Im just a peon i get it..... but it really happend and sure me my doctor and the guy i had with me could be wrong but then what orher spider could create accute necrosis that tunnels fast in a newly built house in yelm?I was only tryin to help with what i have experienced in my dealings. Definitely not start a argument or debate .especially with my elders or worse spread bad info .i will bow out of this thread with apologies to all i sapose

 

[The Snark]

@Pernicious If in fact you were bit by a recluse, it was a transient. We had a man die here in Thailand from a positive ID recluse where there aren't any. Traced it to shipping containers.

yeah maybe 5 min wasnt right but i swear it took less than ten min to get huge

Your time frame fails to fit any spider venom. It does however work within the time frame of the stronger hemotoxins commonly found in pit vipers. The onset description is roughly identical to when I was bit by a rattlesnake. Very curious. Are you sensitized to bees, wasps, and ants venom by any chance? They all pack a hemotoxin and hypersensitivity is very common.

We have several arachnology experts in the NW area, Rod Crawford especially. He regularly takes the university of Washington Entomology students on collecting trips. No recluse has ever been found in the area. So you have some sleuthing to do, finding out where and how. They hitchhike in clothing and bedding. That's a clue. The Burke Museum would very likely want to know about your errant spider.

Where Recluse are found: http://www.burkemuseum.org/blog/myth-brown-recluses-bite-everywhere

Rod Crawfords page: http://staff.washington.edu/tiso/

 

[PidderPeets]

This is me just spitting out ideas without any credible sources and probably nothing to take seriously, but could it have been an assassin bug or maybe even a giant water bug? You just mention that the doctor may have said that it was a spider bite, but you can't confirm that it was for sure a spider. Assassin bugs and giant water bugs don't have necrotizing venom, but they do have painful "stings" (they both have a proboscis used to pierce into their prey) that inject liquifying enzymes into the body. That would explain the pain and and at least some of the damage. I could also easily see them causing a resulting infection after the initial bite, explaining the remainder of the damage. From what I was able to find, both can be found in BC.

Again, I could be very wrong, but I'm just throwing out other ideas.