Brown Recluse bite pics

[SilentMercury]

THIS THREAD WAS A BIG MISTAKE. PLEASE PROCEED TO ANOTHER THREAD.

 

[conipto]

Untreated, Appendicitis can kill you.

Bill

 

[David_F]

Geez, I guess I'm gonna have to stop playing with the recluses I find around the house.

Incidentally, a guy in the IT department where I work was bitten by a recluse a few months ago. He was able to catch the spider and have the ID confirmed. They pumped him full of antibiotics (and something else...don't remember what) and he's fine. There was no necrosis and no recurring symptoms so far.

Why does everyone insist on passing these pics around and spreading fear of these spiders? How many people are bitten by recluses every year (confirmed bites)? How many people experience severe necrosis? As abundant as this spider is in some parts of the country and as *dangerous* as they are you'd think you'd hear of more serious bites.

 

[pitbulllady]

I was bitten by a Brown Recluse several years ago, and I too, was able to capture the spider and confirm the culprit. I went to the ER immediately, where I was treated by a doctor from India who happened to specialize in animal envenomations. He put me on Colcicine, a medication approved for Leprosy, as well as antibiotics, and I also had no further symptoms. Now, it's possible that it was a mostly dry bite, or that I would not have reacted anyway, but in either case, it shows that a bite from this species does not automatically result in horrific necrosis.

pitbulllady

 

[Venom]

Geez, I guess I'm gonna have to stop playing with the recluses I find around the house.

:wall: :wall:

Incidentally, a guy in the IT department where I work was bitten by a recluse a few months ago. He was able to catch the spider and have the ID confirmed. They pumped him full of antibiotics (and something else...don't remember what) and he's fine. There was no necrosis and no recurring symptoms so far.

Why does everyone insist on passing these pics around and spreading fear of these spiders? How many people are bitten by recluses every year (confirmed bites)? How many people experience severe necrosis? As abundant as this spider is in some parts of the country and as *dangerous* as they are you'd think you'd hear of more serious bites.

I find this whole "recluses are overrated and not that dangerous" idea that's been circulating around here very disturbing! It is a gross underestimation ( not to mention NUTS! ) to say that, despite the numerous serious envenomations, these spiders "aren't that dangerous."

David, the danger of recluse envenomation is not a myth whatsoever. L.reclusa venom has been clinically --as in lab experimentation--proven to be a cytotoxic agent which causes necrosis . They have isolated the molecule which causes this effect: sphingomyelinase D.


http://aedes.biosci.arizona.edu/ABS/ref171.htm

http://www.texarkanacollege.edu/~mstorey/invertebrates/recluse.html

From what I have read here: http://www.highway60.com/mark/brs/tamkin.txt
, there is some indication that an immune response plays a role in making the necrosis so severe, so you may be partly right. *If* this is the case, different people may have differing degrees of necrotic loxoscelism due to their immune systems varying responses to the toxin. However, even if this is true, the fact is that it is the venom which precipitates this reaction, and so the venom remains a highly dangerous substance. Don't take either the recluses or their venom lightly!

 

[cacoseraph]

:wall: :wall:


I find this whole "recluses are overrated and not that dangerous" idea that's been circulating around here very disturbing! It is a gross underestimation ( not to mention NUTS! ) to say that, despite the numerous serious envenomations, these spiders "aren't that dangerous."

David, the danger of recluse envenomation is not a myth whatsoever. L.reclusa venom has been clinically --as in lab experimentation--proven to be a cytotoxic agent which causes necrosis . They have isolated the molecule which causes this effect: sphingomyelinase D.


http://aedes.biosci.arizona.edu/ABS/ref171.htm

http://www.texarkanacollege.edu/~mstorey/invertebrates/recluse.html

From what I have read here: http://www.highway60.com/mark/brs/tamkin.txt
, there is some indication that an immune response plays a role in making the necrosis so severe, so you may be partly right. *If* this is the case, different people may have differing degrees of necrotic loxoscelism due to their immune systems varying responses to the toxin. However, even if this is true, the fact is that it is the venom which precipitates this reaction, and so the venom remains a highly dangerous substance. Don't take either the recluses or their venom lightly!

i didn't get the impression David_F was saying they aren't cytotoxic

it's just that people live in houses FULL of them for decades and never know it

the gross tissue melting away effect is VERY rare... and a lot of the times it could easily have other causes. even if you do get the spider and "positively ID" it... there is no evidence the tissue damage is from the spider venom, every time

there are plenty of bacteria and other things they melt 100's if not 1000's of ppl a year that are MUCH MUCH more likely to be the culprit

also, as has been stated many a time before, danger = potential damage * likelyhood of damage

and recluses are.... reclusive =P

 

[Venom]

i didn't get the impression David_F was saying they aren't cytotoxic

He didn't say they weren't cytotoxic-not exactly. He was saying, or at least questioning--that they weren't dangerous, which is a ludicrous statement. I was saying, and continue to state, that their venom has been PROVEN to be harmful/ dangerous. Barring the immune system explanation, which I don't buy into, the only probable reason for a bite not causing a severe envenomation is that an insufficient quantity of venom was injected.

it's just that people live in houses FULL of them for decades and never know it

Probably because they don't know a recluse when they see one. It does happen that people get bitten by recluses, and don't recognize it as a spider bite.

the gross tissue melting away effect is VERY rare... and a lot of the times it could easily have other causes. even if you do get the spider and "positively ID" it... there is no evidence the tissue damage is from the spider venom, every time

Well no, it's not quite that rare. There is a spectrum of severity though. Many recluse bites result in small-medium necrotic sores, or little to no sore This can only be because the spider chose not to deliver much venom, not from any deficiency in venom effectiveness. It would be like saying that Phoneutria sp. "aren't that dangerous" because they don't kill many people. Phoneutria sp. usually inject only a tiny amount of venom, and not because they don't have a lot of it--they are sparing it to keep for later use, just like many other venomous creatures do. So to say they are not very dangerous because their bites often don't result in much is also a gross underestimation, because the severity of the bite depends on how much venom the spider feels like giving. The potential is there for an horrendous envenomation if the spider gives a heavy dose of its venom.

there are plenty of bacteria and other things they melt 100's if not 1000's of ppl a year that are MUCH MUCH more likely to be the culprit

Yes, there is much misidentification of sores as loxoscelism, but we're discussing actual recluse bites, their venom, and the danger posed by actual recluse spiders.

also, as has been stated many a time before, danger = potential damage * likelyhood of damage

Yes, but the potential damage is very serious, depending on the amount of venom injected. I don't know if there the percentage of occurence of dry, mediocre, moderate, and severe local envenomations has been determined yet, but there is a high occurence of at least some necrotic activity, plus the chance of systemic loxoscelism. So while I can't say much as to the liklihood of severe envenomation ( at this time, I'll do more research ), I still have to stress that we not underestimate them and write them off as "not that dangerous."

and recluses are.... reclusive =P

Yes, but that goes to probability of being bitten, not the effects after the bite occurs.

 

[JPD]

I have to agree with David.
It was never stated that they were not potentially dangerous spiders or that they were incapable of delivering a serious bite.
The point is, when pictures are passed around showing the "worst case scenario" of an L.reclusa bite, it leaves the non-spider enthusiast to believe that this will be the case everytime. Not many non-spider folks are going to research just how many cases end up as serious as the pictures that were posted at the beginning of this thread.
Even what was written on the original post would lead someone to believe that this is the outcome everytime. Perhaps saying something like: "Hey everyone, here are some pictures documenting an extreme case of Loxoscelism" would be more appropriate.
What would be interesting to find out is what percentage of confirmed L.reclusa bites actually resulted in a more serious outcome.
And even more interesting, (but impossible to document), would be to find out how many people living in "Recluse Country" are unknowingly bitten with little or no ill effects...(my guess would be thousands of people a year).
We all know that L.reclusa has the ability to deliver a nasty bite, but passing graphic pictures around saying "Look what a Brown Recluse bite can do" does little more than perpetuate the urban myth status of our little fiddlebacked friends and guarantee them a spot in the Guiness Book as the "most feared and misunderstood spider on the planet."
Here is what the general public knows about L.reclusa:
- They are native to every state
- They seek humans out to bite them.
- They can jump
- The bite will always result in a massive wound or even an amputation
- They will chase you
- Their vision is excellent

Rubbish.

Mention the potential danger of L.reclusa to any Arachnologist and I guarantee you that you will see and hear any if not all of the following:
Eye roll, heavy sigh, chuckle, shaking of the head.....the list goes on.

While they are not native to Washington state where I reside, I have talked with countless numbers of people who have been bitten or know someone who has been bitten while living here. When I mention that they are not a native species and that it is very unlikely they will argue until they are blue in the face.
When I suggest that the encounter that they have had or that their friends or relatives have had was likely not even a spider bite, they become defensive. I think it is human nature to want some sort of connection to things that scare most people.
It's very strange.
Anyway...just a few of my thoughts.

 

[SilentMercury]

Sorry all, I guess I'm an ignorant SOB. Just thought some people out there would find the story interesting........offending true spider experts wasn't my intention. I'll be more careful next time.

 

[Hedorah99]

This board is getting way too sensitive.

 

[Crotalus]

I was bitten by a Brown Recluse several years ago, and I too, was able to capture the spider and confirm the culprit. I went to the ER immediately, where I was treated by a doctor from India who happened to specialize in animal envenomations. He put me on Colcicine, a medication approved for Leprosy, as well as antibiotics, and I also had no further symptoms. Now, it's possible that it was a mostly dry bite, or that I would not have reacted anyway, but in either case, it shows that a bite from this species does not automatically result in horrific necrosis.

pitbulllady

It would be very interesting to know why a medicine for labrosy would be effective aginst necrosis from a spiderbite.

/Lelle

 

[ilovebugs]

I came too late for the pictures, but geez,

some people (like myself) enjoy looking at worse case scenario spider bites. I guess you could say I find it interresting to see just what could happen.

I knew a girl who was bit by one on the top of her head, hers didn't get too bad, she lost some hair and wore a baseball cap till it healed up.


well thats all.

 

[JPD]

SilentMercury - I apologize. I was not upset with you and always enjoy seeing nice graphic pics. If I came across as an Arse, please forgive me.
:8o

 

[David_F]

Go away for the weekend and look what happens.

@Venom: Pretty much any response I would have written JPD, cacoseraph, and conipto covered. I don't dispute that L. reclusa venom is cytotoxic. As you mentioned, it's been medically proven. As was said though, many people live in very close proximity to hundreds, sometimes thousands, of these spiders and are never bitten. A few (I don't have exact numbers) people are bitten every year and even fewer show any serious necrosis. To me, that's not dangerous. I define danger as danger = potential damage * likelyhood of damage (thanks for that, cacoseraph). Would I be concerned if I was ever bitten by one? Sure, a bit. I've never been bitten by one so I don't know how my body would react. Am I worried about finding them in my home? Nope, I invite them in, give them a few free meals, and then release them.

@SilentMercury: It's not my intention to come across as an ass. Sorry if I seemed that way. Bring back the gory pics.

 

[ilovebugs]

yes, re post the pics

two years ago our storage building was infested by them, last year our wood pile, and this year our house.

I found 5 and an egg sac in the hall closet one day. I didn't mind the one I found on my floor, but the one on the wall beside my bed, and the one running across my BLANKET... no sir, I don't care for that. I catch them and keep them if I can, but my mom flushes them :-( I just don't like the ones near my bed, cuz my guess is thats where the most people are bitten by them.

haven't seen any lately though...

 

[ilovebugs]

And even more interesting, (but impossible to document), would be to find out how many people living in "Recluse Country" are unknowingly bitten with little or no ill effects...(my guess would be thousands of people a year).

As you said, it would be impossible to document, because they aren't always reported, but I think I'll go out on a limb and say it's probably less than thousands. even if there were thousands of reports, the chances of all of them being recluse bites is slim(again this is my opinion) people seem to want to associate painful bites with recluses and the like (maybe for the stories to tell, who knows)

I found a good article to check out

read about the many (but most likely false) reports in cali and states where recluses for the most part, don't live. Also check out the part about the family of four and their infestation.

 

[David_F]

read about the many (but most likely false) reports in cali and states where recluses for the most part, don't live.

There are (quite a few) recluse species living in CA. Just not the brown recluse (L. reclusa). I think there are probably bites from these other species but, from what little bit I've picked up, the venom of these other species isn't as well studied. L. laeta(Chilean recluse), which has a very limited range in CA, is said to have even more potent venom than L. reclusa, IIRC, and is supposedly very aggressive. I could see how they could account for some bites (not likely due to the limited range though.).

EDIT: A bit of interesting reading if you're up for it. Doesn't go into venom IIRC but it does show the range of Loxosceles species in North America. I found it at the university library and need to go get a copy made.

1983 Gertsch, W.J. & F. Ennik The spider genus Loxosceles in North America, Central America, and West Indies (Araneae, Loxoscelidae) Bull. Am. Mus. Nat. Hist. 175: 264-360

 

[SilentMercury]

No hard feelings guys. The fact is you were right about the manner in which I posted the link. I don't want to give the impression that the trauma inflicted on the victim is basically what happens as a result of every recluse bite. Unfortunately I have been instructed not to repost the link because it is inappropriate material for the forum. If you really need to see them I will offer the link through PM.

 

[Venom]

Who told you it was inappropriate? I think fostering respect and caution toward the medically significant species by showing what can ( as in *might* ) happen if you mess around is completely worthwhile! L.reclusa is available in the hobby, so why shouldn't we give hobbyists the heads-up? Why else do we have a bite/ sting report section?

 

[ilovebugs]

I've done alot of google image searching on this subject in the past, so I've probably seen them anyway unless they are personal photos.