Avic avic Communal :D

[proper_tea]

You can't compare P. murinus to A. avicularia regarding communal tendencies. The two species have nothing to do with each other. Surely you understand this?

Actually, I think OBT and A avic can be very easily compared. Although I will admit that I have not kept A avic communally... I would argue that OBTs aren't definitionally "communal." They are tolerant... which seems to be exactly what you are arguing about A. avics... and I AGREE with you.

In both the example that you quoted, and my experience with OBTs, the spiders have established their own territory, the outer edges of which do overlap... and they do end up interacting... but they don't share burrows, or hang out together. My OBTs do end up building shared web structures, but these seem to act more as barriers from each other, rather than as shared territory, or living structures. I'm pretty sure the only reason they have done this is because I have severely limited their living space. When I have kept them in larger enclosures (3 in a 10 gallon) they did not build shared web structures, and lived in separate burrows (though they would interact at times). Sounds pretty much like how A avic goes.

If both are technically "tolerant," and not "communal," and seem to react to each other in very similar ways, then I don't see why the comparison is not valid.

More to the point, clearly the OP wants to throw 3 A avics in the same enclosure, and see how it goes. People do this with pokies all the time, and call it "communal." From what I've read, pokies and avics have been known to be found inhabiting territories in close vicinity to each other in the wild (most likely, it has been theorized, due not to their innate friendliness, but due to lack of other suitable habitat)... which if you want to get hung up on semantics, would make them "parasocial" or "sub-social."

And for the record... in comparison to Delena cancerides, Diaea ergandros (the only two non-web dwelling social spiders) Anelosimus eximius, Mallos gregalis, Agelena consociata, or Stegodyphus dumicola -all true spiders that are actually social spiders -no tarantula is actually social. There has never (at least to my knowledge) been a study that has shown that tarantulas that sometimes live in shared burrows in the wild get any added benefit from doing so, when compared to individuals of the same species that live in isolation.

So... if you want to argue semantics... which it seems you do... there's my position on the semantics of the issue. There are no truly social tarantulas, but there are examples of varying degrees of tolerant cohabitation. Avics OBTs, and pokies are part of that spectrum, along with H incei, H gigas, and others. However, the OP was using the term "communal" colloquially, the way it is frequently used in the hobby, to mean that they want to try to successfully keep 3 Avics in the same enclosure. Though this is a risky choice for any keeper, and especially for a first-timer, it's not unheard of, and has been done successfully, in particular, with avics.

 

[Moltar]

Although it wasn't a documented scientific study, it has been observed on several occasions that H. incei grow bigger and faster communally than individually. They share food and rearing dities. I wouldn't be surprised if "chicken spider" turns out the same.

 

[proper_tea]

Although it wasn't a documented scientific study, it has been observed on several occasions that H. incei grow bigger and faster communally than individually.

Has this been demonstrated in the wild (and if so, how without a scientific study?), or is this based on experience with H incei "communals" in captivity? I know that with H gigas it has been shown through scientific study that there is no difference in growth rate, despite the fact that, as I understand, their behavior is quite similar to H incei.

 

[proper_tea]

They share food and rearing dities.

I have heard about this... though I've never personally observed it (but I don't doubt it). I have seen the mother of a group of slings go out and kill larger prey and give it the slings to eat collectively. I have heard about slings moving into the burrows of non-related (or distantly related) adults as well. I have also personally had an H incei communal decimated by cannibalism in the same way that everyone is predicting will happen with these Avics. If you get the conditions wrong, paradise collapses quickly.

 

[Moltar]

Has this been demonstrated in the wild (and if so, how without a scientific study?), or is this based on experience with H incei "communals" in captivity? I know that with H gigas it has been shown through scientific study that there is no difference in growth rate, despite the fact that, as I understand, their behavior is quite similar to H incei.

With the current state of arachnological research being as it is, particularly on Theraphosids, waiting for concrete scientific evidence of this or that behavioral characteristic on a specific species will have you waiting for a pretty long time. Like it or not, we the hobbyists are seeing all kinds of undocumented behaviors for the first time, regardless of whether it's in the wild or in captivity.

I try to offer whatever advice i've picked up along the years as long as I feel the source has some merit. If the source is shaky I either won't post it or i'll qualify it as such. A tarantula forum where scientifically verified data was the only data discussed would be a pretty slow place.

Whether H. incei do specifically better in a communal setting remains to be proven via scientific method. What is known is that they do thrive that way and in the wild they prefer to habitate that way as conditions allow.

 

[Moltar]

I have also personally had an H incei communal decimated by cannibalism in the same way that everyone is predicting will happen with these Avics. If you get the conditions wrong, paradise collapses quickly.

I hear ya. I'm curious to see how this group does, in any case.

 

[KoriTamashii]

With all the controversy surrounding this topic, maybe I should set up some kind of documentary for my avic communal. Could be useful!

 

[proper_tea]

With the current state of arachnological research being as it is, particularly on Theraphosids, waiting for concrete scientific evidence of this or that behavioral characteristic on a specific species will have you waiting for a pretty long time. Like it or not, we the hobbyists are seeing all kinds of undocumented behaviors for the first time, regardless of whether it's in the wild or in captivity.

The reason I asked if what you were claiming had been observed in the wild, or in captivity isn't because I'm specifically disagreeing with what you are saying. But if you are going to claim that it has been observed that H incei grows bigger and faster communally, it only makes sense to ask what the conditions were under which this was observed.

The conventional wisdom (and practice) when keeping a communal setup is to make sure that there is ALWAYS prey available, to avoid cannibalism. In contrast, the conventional wisdom in keeping a solitary spider, is that overfeeding may be unhealthy, and that food should be given at a restrained rate. The availability of food will certainly effect the growth rate of a spider. If these are the conditions under which this was observed, you can see why I would question the conclusion that the communal set up was the determining factor in growth rate. Seems like the determining factor would be prey availability.

If you can point me to evidence that a hobbyist out there has actually compared the growth rates of individual H incei slings, vs H incei slings kept communally, while maintaining equivalent feeding regiments, I'd be very interested to see it.

I think H incei is a fascinating spider, and you're right that the majority of what we know about them has come from hobbyists, not scientists. Behaviorally, they are so cool. The idea that you can toss a sac into a 50 gallon tank, let it hatch, and have a tank full of spiders that are interacting, and not killing each other is super cool. I would love to see evidence that they are evolutionarily social.

 

[proper_tea]

With all the controversy surrounding this topic, maybe I should set up some kind of documentary for my avic communal. Could be useful!

Oh please do. As Moltar very accurately points out, much of our knowledge of tarantulas comes from hobbyists observing and documenting previously undocumented behavior. It's so important to document both what works... and what doesn't work. This is how we learn.

 

[Moltar]

I don't recall where I read it, actually, some thread somewhere. I thought it might have been here: http://www.arachnofreaks.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3325&PN=0&TPN=1

But apparently it wasn't. That link remains the most awesome communal setup i've ever seen. It makes a good read if you haven't seen it already.

 

[proper_tea]

If this is the same user as is on here as TarCan, then it is the communal that made me decide to give it a try. It's amazing right? I really wanna give this another shot at some point.

I've got a female H gigas that I want to give this a shot with at some point. It would be amazing to have a communal spider that can swim!!! After that, all we need is to find one that can fly... and I guess... purr when you pet it.

 

[Mack&Cass]

If this is the same user as is on here as TarCan, then it is the communal that made me decide to give it a try. It's amazing right? I really wanna give this another shot at some point.

I've got a female H gigas that I want to give this a shot with at some point. It would be amazing to have a communal spider that can swim!!! After that, all we need is to find one that can fly... and I guess... purr when you pet it.

She's Tarcan's wife. She's on here as The Red Queen.

That is a seriously awesome communal. I want to start an incei communal soon for sure.

Cass

 

[Zman181]

I agree that is an awesome communal. I hope it works out for you.

 

[Fierce Deїty]

No, actually i plan to keep an eye on the tank and watch it every few hours a day

Better be counting them every time! ;P

 

[Kevbug]

Better be counting them every time! ;P

Hehe I will but before i do the communal im making sure what sex they are and what not so im not doing this until they are 8-14 months old

 

[Mack&Cass]

Hehe I will but before i do the communal im making sure what sex they are and what not so im not doing this until they are 8-14 months old

If you're going to do a communal, they shouldn't be seperated. That's pretty much asking for failure. If you want to see if this will actually work, then they need to stay together from 'birth'.

Cass

 

[CAK]

Agree with M and C. Don't separate at all. The male versus female aspect shouldn't make a huge difference. I'm sure someone out there will contest it.

 

[Forrest]

best genis for communal imo is anything pokie, ive seen p.miranda . p.metallica and p.regalis raised together all the way to adult hood.. however they must be raised from the start. seperating and then reintroducing them will cause major issues (ie: 3 dead 4''+ P.metallica).