Are vertebrates really more intelligent than other animals?

[CladeArthropoda]

I'v noticed something. Every time a live vertebrate is fed, people freak out and scream "animal cruelty". But when any other animal such as an insect is fed live, people dismiss it because they're "bugs". Does this have any sort of basis? It seems not.

"But wait, inverts don't feel pain"

That's an extreme over generalization. For one thing, there is no such thing as "invertebrates". They aren't a real group. Arthropods are as different to mollusks as they are to vertebrates.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qmJhqWE9U...N-oKbJUOZ90/s1600/METAZOA+paps+et+al+2009.jpg
It's not completely accurate, but it gives you an idea of what I'm saying.

For the sake of this post, arthropods will be my focus as they are the most common feeders. Anyway. Many arthropods exhibit complex social behavior that we would normally associate with birds or mammals.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/17839642

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...le-faces-recognition-insects-science-animals/

https://books.google.com/books?id=6Da6BwAAQBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=mantis+shrimp+intelligence&source=bl&ots=n2bux4u_NF&sig=-sllszHpmAsMAXQZGargs9-xeQg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi82qG4xOvUAhUNfiYKHav-AKwQ6AEIajAN#v=onepage&q=mantis shrimp intelligence&f=false

That's also not to mention that tarantula individuals of the same species apparently have personalities. Some individuals are more aggressive while others are more docile. Many arthropods also exhibit behavioral adaptation to a large degree.

Next, are vertebrates really that intelligent? Obviously, ones like primates and elephants excel, but these are likely exceptions and not rules. Just look at the frogs and minnows in the pond. Look at all the fish in your reef tank. Look as the swarms of lampreys in rivers. Look at all the lizards on the trees. Is there really anything to suggest that the average vertebrate is anymore intelligent than the average mollusk or arthropod? Most vertebrates act based on instincts, just like most animals. The only vertebrates that exhibit what we call intelligence are birds, mammals, and a handful of fish and reptiles.

And about feeling pain. Arthropods have extremely well developed nervous systems, with ventral nerve cords, nerves, brain, antennae, etc. And there is another common argument:

"Arthropods loose limbs but carry on, so they don't feel pain"

That is true. But many vertebrates also loose limbs and carry on. There are many examples of fish who lost their fins. This crocodile even lost a part of it's leg, and yet it goes on. Almost as if it doesn't feel pain.

In conclusion, I take from all this people are absolute hypocrites when it comes to vertebrates.

What do you think?

Oh, and I'm new here. I don't actually have a pet, but the practice of keeping pet arthropods fascinates me. So hi, I guess.

 

[EulersK]

Well educated post. Sadly, it'll get deleted. This subforum is for troubleshooting and suggestions.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Well educated post. Sadly, it'll get deleted. This subforum is for troubleshooting and suggestions.

Where can I post it?

 

[The Snark]

Unfortunately we only have the forum Not So Spineless Wonders.
We could use a forum Applied Science or similar which strictly obeys the rules of scientific analysis, citing reputable references, as your posting.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

I see this was moved to a different forum. That solves that. But what's your stance on this?

 

[schmiggle]

I think you underestimate the intelligence of many vertebrates and possibly overestimate the intelligence of certain groups of invertebrates, but I mostly agree with you. The reason for the former is that pretty much all vertebrates can learn, and many can learn pretty complex things. However, even flatworms can learn, so who knows how difficult that really is. I will also say that I believe I read somewhere that all vertebrates feel pain. However, many scientists believe they have shown that certain invertebrates (like lobsters) don't feel pain, and I have serious doubts. You're absolutely right--it's very hard to tell when an animal is feeling pain. Humans send fairly honest pain signals, because we are likely to be helped by other people when we do. Most animals, however, are under significant pressure to hide any problems they have to mitigate their chances of being targeted by a predator until they heal (or die, but maybe they can get in some sex first). Arthropods, furthermore, often have fairly complex brains and behavior (the other group that comes to mind in this regard is cephalopods). So I think yes, it is likely that the majority of arthropods feel pain. Maybe not the tiny parasitic crustaceans or .4mm flies, but still by and large.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

I think you underestimate the intelligence of many vertebrates and possibly overestimate the intelligence of certain groups of invertebrates, but I mostly agree with you. The reason for the former is that pretty much all vertebrates can learn, and many can learn pretty complex things. However, even flatworms can learn, so who knows how difficult that really is. I will also say that I believe I read somewhere that all vertebrates feel pain. However, many scientists believe they have shown that certain invertebrates (like lobsters) don't feel pain, and I have serious doubts. You're absolutely right--it's very hard to tell when an animal is feeling pain. Humans send fairly honest pain signals, because we are likely to be helped by other people when we do. Most animals, however, are under significant pressure to hide any problems they have to mitigate their chances of being targeted by a predator until they heal (or die, but maybe they can get in some sex first). Arthropods, furthermore, often have fairly complex brains and behavior (the other group that comes to mind in this regard is cephalopods). So I think yes, it is likely that the majority of arthropods feel pain. Maybe not the tiny parasitic crustaceans or .4mm flies, but still by and large.

Can lampreys and hagfish learn and feel pain? I'm not doubting they can, it's just that when people refer to vertebrates they mostly refer to gnathostomes (Jawed vertebrates). The majority of arthropods (at least a good chunk of them) do exhibit basic learning capabilities, so I don't see why people stereotype them as unthinking, mindless monsters.

Oh, and "invertebrate" is kind of a meaningless term, as they aren't an actual group. It's like saying "nonmollusk" or "unarthropod".

 

[schmiggle]

Oh, and "invertebrate" is kind of a meaningless term, as they aren't an actual group. It's like saying "nonmollusk" or "unarthropod".

Well, yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. If you want to get more specific, I think the groups of animals where pain is most likely to be useful--and therefore present--are those that are smart enough to need an incentive to not act a certain way, specifically most arthropods, cephalopods, and vertebrates. I can't think of other animals that actually have a brain, and in fact many arthropods do not have a true brain (not sure about the other groups I mentioned).

By the way, I've read good arguments that plants probably feel pain, too, but that is a debate for another time.

 

[The Snark]

Intelligence has been equated to how sophisticated the neurological system is. The neurological system being in charge of both how an animal interacts with it's environment and the development of the brain's ability to record and reference the recorded data.

See synaptogenesis et al. Esp. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989000/

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Well, yes, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. If you want to get more specific, I think the groups of animals where pain is most likely to be useful--and therefore present--are those that are smart enough to need an incentive to not act a certain way, specifically most arthropods, cephalopods, and vertebrates. I can't think of other animals that actually have a brain, and in fact many arthropods do not have a true brain (not sure about the other groups I mentioned).

Well, I know that. Barnacles don't brains, neither do tantulocarids, pycnogonids or the great veriety of parasitic copepods. But these are a relative minority in arthropods.

After a quick search, it appears that annelids and mollusks also have brains. Go figure.

 

[schmiggle]

After a quick search, it appears that annelids and mollusks also have brains. Go figure.

Cephalopods are molluscs. I'm almost positive that the "brain" of bivalves and most gastropods amounts to a ring of a couple ganglia. The annelids are mostly the same, but I was surprised to learn that the brain is more complex in some. Go figure.

Regarding ganglia: some more active, large arthropods, such as solifugae, have nervous system centers that are, say, four ganglia in a ring. A ganglion, as far as I know, functions like the spinal chord: an input leads directly to an automatic response. Obviously the distinction is tricky, but it seems to me that an animal that only has ganglia is unlikely to feel pain, because there wouldn't be any point. Thus, I would guess that the annelids with more complex brains are more likely to feel pain than, say, solifugae.

It certainly makes one wonder what else has a brain, though.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Cephalopods are molluscs. I'm almost positive that the "brain" of bivalves and most gastropods amounts to a ring of a couple ganglia. The annelids are mostly the same, but I was surprised to learn that the brain is more complex in some. Go figure.

Regarding ganglia: some more active, large arthropods, such as solifugae, have nervous system centers that are, say, four ganglia in a ring. A ganglion, as far as I know, functions like the spinal chord: an input leads directly to an automatic response. Obviously the distinction is tricky, but it seems to me that an animal that only has ganglia is unlikely to feel pain, because there wouldn't be any point. Thus, I would guess that the annelids with more complex brains are more likely to feel pain than, say, solifugae.

It certainly makes one wonder what else has a brain, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system_of_gastropods
Don't know how accurate this is, but the ganglia in a gastropod's brain are all fused together. Make of that what you will.

Plus, nearly all animals are shown to actively avoid harmful stimuli, so that shows some level of a awareness. There is still the fact that many insects have shown cognitive abilities far beyond those of most cold blooded vertebrates, and even some birds and mammals (when was the last time moles or ostriches did anything intelligent).

 

[Vermis]

I think, if you're going to go through the research to put together a scientific article on the ability of arthropods to feel pain, to justify shouting at random strangers, I'd want more extensive citations than National Geographic and the Beeb.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

I think, if you're going to go through the research to put together a scientific article on the ability of arthropods to feel pain, to justify shouting at random strangers, I'd want more extensive citations than National Geographic and the Beeb.

I'm not exactly "shouting" at people.

Now if I said "OMFG YOU ARE ALL WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING LMFAO XDDD!!!!!", then that would be shouting. But I'm not doing that.

 

[The Snark]

It seems that before this discussion can go any further, the OP needs to better define what 'intelligence' is relative to the original post. The neurons that detect various conditions, stimulus receptors, by themselves don't necessarily indicate intelligence if there is no higher order neurological operations connected to extrapolate and utilize what the stimulus has detected. And then, even if stimulus is detected such as pain, there are various neurological functions that are capable of blocking out or utilizing the sensory input in numerous different ways besides the pain-reflex response.
For example, a higher order animal that looses a limb yet does not appear to display a pain response. Other neurological responses just as or even more sophisticated such as localized shock, collapsing the circulatory system functions to preserve blood may be present to varying degrees for a variety of purposes. Even apparent lack of pain reflex response may be a higher order function in order to minimize what could otherwise be a debilitating effect.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

It seems that before this discussion can go any further, the OP needs to better define what 'intelligence' is relative to the original post. The neurons that detect various conditions, stimulus receptors, by themselves don't necessarily indicate intelligence if there is no higher order neurological operations connected to extrapolate and utilize what the stimulus has detected. And then, even if stimulus is detected such as pain, there are various neurological functions that are capable of blocking out or utilizing the sensory input in numerous different ways besides the pain-reflex response.
For example, a higher order animal that looses a limb yet does not appear to display a pain response. Other neurological responses just as or even more sophisticated such as localized shock, collapsing the circulatory system functions to preserve blood may be present to varying degrees for a variety of purposes. Even apparent lack of pain reflex response may be a higher order function in order to minimize what could otherwise be a debilitating effect.

Well, that's a good point. Especially that last sentence. This may actually explain the apparent lack of pain related behaviors in many arthropods. As for intelligence, I gave examples of behaviors in insects that we normally associate with "higher order animal"

 

[The Snark]

There is a whole lot about nerves and the neurological system that mom nature is keeping tight lipped about. (Gross anatomy follows)

Spoiler

It is relatively common for people to suffer from massive trauma, lacerations, avulsions and amputations, without pain and or significant bleeding. Why this happens and when still seems to be a complete mystery. Why in some people but not in others. As far as I know it's completely random.
So when we try to measure intelligence in certain animals, pure neurological functions, our measuring devices and formulas are always lacking assignment of some variables.

 

[schmiggle]

Don't know how accurate this is, but the ganglia in a gastropod's brain are all fused together. Make of that what you will.

Yeah, I saw that too and wasn't sure what to do with it. If I had to guess I would think that it's sort of like annelids: most gastropods have fairly simple, stimulus-response structures (look at the picture of the Limnaea "brain"), but a few that have more complex predatory behaviors, such as maybe cone snails, might have more complex nervous systems. But I have absolutely no information to back that up.

Plus, nearly all animals are shown to actively avoid harmful stimuli, so that shows some level of a awareness.

It doesn't really. Many single-celled organisms do the same rhing, but I have trouble attributing pain to an amoeba.

There is still the fact that many insects have shown cognitive abilities far beyond those of most cold blooded vertebrates, and even some birds and mammals (when was the last time moles or ostriches did anything intelligent).

I still think you are underestimating vertebrate intelligence. Take ostriches. They have complex mating rituals and egg rearing behavior, and based on other birds they probably have to learn the former--it's probably largely inborn, but many birds need to spend years learning to perfect their courtship. And some moles live in colonial groups, and others produce a variety of sounds. Many cold-blooded animals also have complex courtship, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had to learn large portions of it, as well. Aside from that, many cold blooded animals generally thought of as stupid are actually remarkably smart. Archerfish need to learn to shoot correctly, crocdiles will hang out in groups when fish is particularly plentiful even though they're generally highly territorial, many other fish (particularly wrasses) use tools, frogs can differentiate different mating calls from each other, and I was just reading that certain turtles learn through imitation.

None of this, of course, is meant to say that the intelligence of other animals is less. But vertebrates are not mostly dumber than other animals.

It is relatively common for people to suffer from massive trauma, lacerations, avulsions and amputations, without pain and or significant bleeding.

That's really odd. I would actually sort of expect the lack of pain in more cases--if you, say, lose a hand, the only useful pain, the kind that would avoid further damage, would be to not put pressure on the area. And if you can avoid significant bleeding, especially from laceration (which can eventually entirely heal), you would think that gene would spread quickly to almost everyone.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

I never said that vertebrates where dumber than other animals. I just said the gap between the intelligence of vertebrates and other animals wasn't all that large. But I like the examples you brought up anyway.

And here's a different article on the ability to feel pain in insects.
https://askentomologists.com/2016/08/29/do-insects-feel-pain/
I guess we might never know for sure. But I think we should treat them as so anyway.

 

[viper69]

hat's an extreme over generalization. For one thing, there is no such thing as "invertebrates". They aren't a real group.

Define group?

No such thing as invertebrates? That's simply not true, scientists use the terms invertebrate and vertebrate regularly.