Aenas Aenas

[errit]

In a few Ld 50 charts i saw these Androctonus sp. A. Aenas Aenas and A. Oenas oenas. They had Low Ld 50 of 0.31.
But do they mean A. Bicolor Aenas with this one? A. Bicolor has an Ld 50 of around 1.2 so that contradicts eachother.
So my question is: are these species recognized or a make up story

 

[423]

Hi errit.
I read on a german page that Androctonus aeneas is Androctonus bicolor aeneas. About the venom I'm not really sure. Here is a link to the page: http://www.gifte.de/androctonus-arten.htm

 

[fusion121]

In a few Ld 50 charts i saw these Androctonus sp. A. Aenas Aenas and A. Oenas oenas. They had Low Ld 50 of 0.31.
But do they mean A. Bicolor Aenas with this one? A. Bicolor has an Ld 50 of around 1.2 so that contradicts eachother.
So my question is: are these species recognized or a make up story

If you've got conflicting LD50 results, it is not surprising, species are often assigned different LD50s by different researchers simply because the LD50 value isn't really very useful (except for a relative scale of leathality) because its so variable and is dependant on so many factors. One thing to check though for these two values is; the test animal used. Its not always mice and different animals give different values.

 

[Eurypterid]

If you've got conflicting LD50 results, it is not surprising, species are often assigned different LD50s by different researchers simply because the LD50 value isn't really very useful because its so variable and is dependant on so many factors. One thing to check though for these two values is; the test animal used. Its not always mice and different animals give different values.

Also, the techniques used to test LD50 vary greatly between researchers, and can cause huge differences in the results, even when the same test animal species is used. For example, the site of venom injection is not always the same. Some researchers will inject into the muscle, some inject under the skin, and some will inject into a vein. When using mice many will inject them in the tail, but others don't. This is why the same species might show gigantic differences in LD50 in two different studies. The only thing LD50 is really good for is to compare the strength of different venoms, but only when all venoms compared are tested using the exact same protocol. Usually that means that you can really only use it to compare venoms tested by the same person. It's not really all that useful to compare the results from one person with the results from another, unless you know they both used the same procedures.

 

[fusion121]

For example:

 

[errit]

Heres the LD 50 list am reffering to:
http://members.tripod.com/~c_kianwee/rpotent.htm

You can see that A. aeneas aeneas and A. oeneas oeneas. are both mentioned seperatly in this list.

 

[Eurypterid]

Notice that the three papers giving the LD50s are all done by different people over a span of 13 years. So, for all the reasons that Fusion and I have pointed out, they can't really be reliably compared.

 

[MilkmanWes]

Is there a difference in the LD50 of the same scorp in rodents vs reptiles vs insects vs larger mammals?

I know a big point in this thread is differences in charts/research methods etc, but has any difference like above comparisons been examined?

 

[errit]

I think so. But in all tests rodents are used. and as far as i know especially mice.
I think the values would greatly differ. mammals are probably more vulnerable to the venom then rodents.