Why don't more captive bred spiders come with "birth certificates"

[8ballphoenix]

I've also thought that something like this would be cool. Seeing how males get shipped around, it would allow for keeping track of who has mated who and might help avoid any potential problems for inbreeding or whatever... All of which has been already said, I know.

 

[Anastasia]

best document is a record, by who bred, when hatched and molt dates,
if WC from who and last molt date
is simple is that

 

[betuana]

Registry Databases

Since T's have so many babies per egg sac it could be tricky, however databases are nice things.

I have 2 rats that I got from a breeder, and the breeder (and the last breeder I used several years ago) registers every litter and all the pups with a database: the North American Rat Registry. Its accessible online so that people can enter notes about individuals if they which, but at the very least contains info on when they were born, parents, and the breeder who bred them. Many owners (myself included), join up so that we can make health notes, enter a DOD when it happens, and read up on littermates and relatives and their health, etc. Each has its own NARR # to identify it.

An online database for T's might be able to be structured in a similar way. It wouldn't necessarily require any paperwork then, since most of the info is online, but could contain info like parents, breeder, when the sac was made, hatched, first fed, etc. Maybe even who they were shipped to, ownership transfers, etc and those people could opt to put in updates, etc. Might be interesting if enough people participated because it could also help generate some statistics about lifespans, percentages that die as slings, percentages that end up being males or females etc.

Not sure whether it would be able to be used for legalities, but it may be a interesting resource for learning more about the T's, possibly a helpful resource for breeders too - a registry would mean it would potentially be possible to avoid inbreeding if needed, whereas right now it may be tricky to know if someone's MM that they got from such and such who got it from so and so is closely related to the female he's being sent off to meet. Not sure if this is really a problem with T's, but a database could reduce this.

Anyways, this thread just reminded me of the rat registry database, so I thought I'd point out that databases like that for other critters do exist, and seem to work fairly well, without costing lots of paper or ink (does require a host site for the database though).

 

[Travis K]

Perhaps the spiders should only be identified down to the sac until they are entered as registered active breeders. Then the lineage of that parent will be basically a footnote to slings from subsequent sacs...

LOL, great minds think alike. See above post.

It really doesn't need to be that complicated. Sacs get a number the way we get the number for the sac is not very important. owner of sling or T can go online and register there T to the sac number. All breeder would be responsible to do is get the sac number and inter the maternal data. Done.

If we are truely parinoid about cheaters then we can issue a password with the slings sac# granted it would be the same password for every sling, but unless you were to get a sling with a password you would not be able to register the T in the database. New T's would not have sac#s.

So If my Female B. smithi was a registered T she would have a serial number like this:

2159612032000-0121 and I was to mate her with and unregistered male it would be entered as:

2159612032000-0121 X UNREGISTERED

I would after success hatch get on ine and register the sac with all the details and get a new sac#.

Now of coarse there would be unregistered x unregistered for maternal informataion all the time but you would still be adavanccing the hobby after each registered sac.

the details on how to get the sac numbers wouldn't be that hard. have numbers for genus, species, maternal combinations(if unregistered it would be X's)and then sac date. That is how you could ge the sac number, the last 4 individual numbers will have to be added affter slings/T's are purchased verification code entered and then registered. Small fee to add a name to your T's full serial number.

so if I went on to the data base maybe www.arachnoboards.com/trackyourt.php, and registerd my B. smithi sac it would be Unregistered X Unregisterd w/ pix of coarse. the sac number would start with 05 for Brachypelma, 07 for smithi, 000X for unregistered female, 000X for unregistered male, and finally sac was laid 11/25/2008 so 11252008.

so the new sac number would read 0507000X000X11252008.

bam I get a password for the Number so people that buy/get the slings could go on and get the next 4 digits.

I would simply give a very small peice of paper with my slings that would read

Brachypelma smithi, sac# 0507000X000X11252008(password xc4t)
please log onto www.arachnoboards.com/trackyourt.php
to register your T. DO NOT LOSE THIS TEACKING NUMBER!

 

[Travis K]

Since T's have so many babies per egg sac it could be tricky, however databases are nice things.

not true the sacs are number not the slings, at least until the new owners decide to register them.

I have 2 rats that I got from a breeder, and the breeder (and the last breeder I used several years ago) registers every litter and all the pups with a database: the North American Rat Registry. Its accessible online so that people can enter notes about individuals if they which, but at the very least contains info on when they were born, parents, and the breeder who bred them. Many owners (myself included), join up so that we can make health notes, enter a DOD when it happens, and read up on littermates and relatives and their health, etc. Each has its own NARR # to identify it.

An online database for T's might be able to be structured in a similar way. It wouldn't necessarily require any paperwork then, since most of the info is online, but could contain info like parents, breeder, when the sac was made, hatched, first fed, etc. Maybe even who they were shipped to, ownership transfers, etc and those people could opt to put in updates, etc. Might be interesting if enough people participated because it could also help generate some statistics about lifespans, percentages that die as slings, percentages that end up being males or females etc.

Not sure whether it would be able to be used for legalities, but it may be a interesting resource for learning more about the T's, possibly a helpful resource for breeders too - a registry would mean it would potentially be possible to avoid inbreeding if needed, whereas right now it may be tricky to know if someone's MM that they got from such and such who got it from so and so is closely related to the female he's being sent off to meet. Not sure if this is really a problem with T's, but a database could reduce this.

This is a great idea! Once you had a registered T you could post notes and updates on it. If this were the case we would be able to accumulate tons off useful information. Thank you for the input.

 

[Cocoa-Jin]

Ok, bare in mind this is off of the top of my head.

Maybe we can indentify the slings through sac ID, which will designatec by owner's last name of the mother and father. Each sling is then identified as the sac ID.

So If I had a male and female Pokie. They be called WilsonMa and WilsonFa, if I had two sets of each, the other set would be WilsonMb and Wilson Fb. The sacs and all asociate slings would be named after the mothers and father. So sac pair one and all the subsequent pairings of that pair would be named WilsonMa-Fa...or maybe abbreviated to WlsnMa-Fa or even WlsnMFa. If there is a concern that Wilson is to common, I could use whatever ID I like...maybe last four of my SSN# WxxxxMa-Fa.

now a buyer who later breed using my off spring could use the sac ID as the name for his breeder T and all the new sacs between the pair would be named the same way. WlsnMFaM-JonesFa...this would say his sac is using one of my male off spring(symbolized by the last M) with one of his own Jones females(symbolized by the Fa).

Now the new breeder would use and log the standard nomenclature, but could use an abbreviation or new "tag" for ease and simplicty that can be tracked back through the breeding logs back to the standard nomeclature and previous bloodlines. So Jones could name his new offspring JonesMb and Jones Fb for all the Ts out of the WlsnMFaM-JonesFa sac for ease and simplicity, but he would need to log that all his JonesMbs and JonesFbs are WlsnMFaM-JonesFa slings for record keeping and future buyers linneage checks. If he doesnt, he breaks the linneage. That may not mean anything at all...unless my bloodlines are desirable to buyers, which means he just hurt the value of his stock. A breeder can lie, but if he never recieved my off spring he wouldnt be in my records for verification.

It would require a bit of paperwork, but that is always required in maintaing bloodlines. There would need to be a database and registery for breeders, so each breeder can lock in a breeder's ID...like Wilson or Wxxxx, etc.

Breeders would have to mantain a record of reciepents of various sac IDs. So instead of racking each sling, you track buyers and the number of sling sthey bought under each sac ID. So no matter how many sacs I get from a mating pair, all buyers of those slings would be listed under one sac ID. to simplify things even more, the breeder can ask if the buyer wants papers and only log those buyers who want to maintain offical linneage. The papers would basically state sac ID and numbers connected to that sac ID. Its up to buyer and the honor system to accuratly match papers to Ts.

A buyer can then use their "papers", and the records of the breeders if abbreviations or new "tags" were used, to track back through our database to determine breeder linneage.

 

[Travis K]

Ok, bare in mind this is off of the top of my head.

Maybe we can indentify the slings through sac ID, which will designatec by owner's last name of the mother and father.

And for those who breed more then one species of T?

I think a numeric system which tells you genus-species-mother ID-father ID-sac date is the best way to do it.

then you can look at a serial# and know how old the T is and what genus and species it is.

 

[barabootom]

LOL, great minds think alike. See above post.

It really doesn't need to be that complicated. Sacs get a number the way we get the number for the sac is not very important. owner of sling or T can go online and register there T to the sac number. All breeder would be responsible to do is get the sac number and inter the maternal data. Done.

If we are truely parinoid about cheaters then we can issue a password with the slings sac# granted it would be the same password for every sling, but unless you were to get a sling with a password you would not be able to register the T in the database. New T's would not have sac#s.

So If my Female B. smithi was a registered T she would have a serial number like this:

2159612032000-0121 and I was to mate her with and unregistered male it would be entered as:

2159612032000-0121 X UNREGISTERED

I would after success hatch get on ine and register the sac with all the details and get a new sac#.

Now of coarse there would be unregistered x unregistered for maternal informataion all the time but you would still be adavanccing the hobby after each registered sac.

the details on how to get the sac numbers wouldn't be that hard. have numbers for genus, species, maternal combinations(if unregistered it would be X's)and then sac date. That is how you could ge the sac number, the last 4 individual numbers will have to be added affter slings/T's are purchased verification code entered and then registered. Small fee to add a name to your T's full serial number.

so if I went on to the data base maybe www.arachnoboards.com/trackyourt.php, and registerd my B. smithi sac it would be Unregistered X Unregisterd w/ pix of coarse. the sac number would start with 05 for Brachypelma, 07 for smithi, 000X for unregistered female, 000X for unregistered male, and finally sac was laid 11/25/2008 so 11252008.

so the new sac number would read 0507000X000X11252008.

bam I get a password for the Number so people that buy/get the slings could go on and get the next 4 digits.

I would simply give a very small peice of paper with my slings that would read

Brachypelma smithi, sac# 0507000X000X11252008(password xc4t)
please log onto www.arachnoboards.com/trackyourt.php
to register your T. DO NOT LOSE THIS TEACKING NUMBER!

I think you're right on and this could work. :clap:

 

[Cocoa-Jin]

And for those who breed more then one species of T?

I think a numeric system which tells you genus-species-mother ID-father ID-sac date is the best way to do it.

then you can look at a serial# and know how old the T is and what genus and species it is.

I guess genus and species can be tracked on the breeding log and or there could be a species code

 

[heks]

I've been thinking about this for some time now. And I like the SN# idea.
But you would have to the larger breeders on board for it to be practical. And you would need something like AB or the ATS or BTS to sponsor it at least at first.

The wealth of data collected over time would be immeasurable. True tracking of longevity and blood lines.

The problem is what is the instentive for the breeders?

the incentive for breeders would be the same as for you and i... if they are in the hobby not just for money that is... plus ... i would think they would start charging a little more... more work= more money... im sure it wouldnt be a large increase but some most definitely... using something like quickbooks would really make it easy though... even with multiple breeding projects happening

 

[Lucara]

Its not even so much about the numbers of slings in a sac but, say someone makes certificates for their B. smithi eggsac and starts selling slings with their certification of birth and "parents". How hard would it be to just make a copy of the certificate and say "Oh my spider was hatched from this clutch". Theres no way to prove otherwise, especially since their growth rate is almost completely impossible to compair to even to one out of the smae clutch. If someone kept their smithi warm and over fed or if it was a male, then it would be larger than all the others anyway.
Theres just too many loo poles in the "certificate" thing. Unless you microchipped or tattooed them (which I dont think you can do anyway) theres no 100% guarantee that any of it is valid.

 

[Cocoa-Jin]

Its not even so much about the numbers of slings in a sac but, say someone makes certificates for their B. smithi eggsac and starts selling slings with their certification of birth and "parents". How hard would it be to just make a copy of the certificate and say "Oh my spider was hatched from this clutch". Theres no way to prove otherwise, especially since their growth rate is almost completely impossible to compair to even to one out of the smae clutch. If someone kept their smithi warm and over fed or if it was a male, then it would be larger than all the others anyway.
Theres just too many loo poles in the "certificate" thing. Unless you microchipped or tattooed them (which I dont think you can do anyway) theres no 100% guarantee that any of it is valid.

Breeders need to keep logs of who their slings got to and how many, it make it some what reasonable for a buyer to back track and verify if the seller has recieved stock from the source breeder. As I said in my post, the breeder doesnt have "certify" every sling, but just those requested by buyers. That way breeders can minimize their record keeping.

 

[Travis K]

Its not even so much about the numbers of slings in a sac but, say someone makes certificates for their B. smithi eggsac and starts selling slings with their certification of birth and "parents". How hard would it be to just make a copy of the certificate and say "Oh my spider was hatched from this clutch". Theres no way to prove otherwise, especially since their growth rate is almost completely impossible to compair to even to one out of the smae clutch. If someone kept their smithi warm and over fed or if it was a male, then it would be larger than all the others anyway.
Theres just too many loo poles in the "certificate" thing. Unless you microchipped or tattooed them (which I dont think you can do anyway) theres no 100% guarantee that any of it is valid.

If there was to be a lineage tracking data base the above scenario would be very unlikely. People would still buy unregistered T's. To go to the trouble of of counterfeiting like this would be kinda stupid. Not to mention each sac# could come with a short password.

 

[Travis K]

Breeders need to keep logs of who their slings got to and how many, it make it some what reasonable for a buyer to back track and verify if the seller has recieved stock from the source breeder. As I said in my post, the breeder doesnt have "certify" every sling, but just those requested by buyers. That way breeders can minimize their record keeping.

Well if they were to register their breeding then they would have a number for all the slings, a sac#. It would be very easy for them to print out a bunch of the same numbers and tape them to the lids or vials of the slings. I really don't think it would be a great big hassle for breeders. I do think that breeders that did keep track of this with every one else would only gain popularity and get slightly higher prices or just get increased business.

I am half tempted to start my own if AB doesn't do it. Problem is I am not to tech savvy when it comers to servers and things. It would be so awesome if AB had a Tarantula Registry page!

 

[Kris-wIth-a-K]

hmm

I's like to see the number of moults and the date they moulted was when purchasing a T. Its not really a pain. You just get a calander and mark the day. "Nhandu Chromatus moulted May 3rd 2008, 2""

 

[Aubrey Sidwell]

Here is my thought. A tarantula that is listed as protected is only protected by the protection status before it enters the United States. Once the tarantulas are in your hands and has made it passed customs and fish and wildlife inspection there is no longer a need to prove ownership rights. There would be no need for inspection during state to state transport within the continental US. If you are moving out of the country, unless you are willing to pay the price if it's legal where you are moving to, it is easier to sell them off to someone else in the states.

Individual identification is impossible because honesty is all that you could go by to ID the tarantula through all the owners. They can't be tattooed, chiped, or painted because of their circulatory system and the fact that they molt. It's a lot of paper pushing that not only would cause alot of wasted time on the breeders/dealers but the casual hobbyist as well.

 

[Travis K]

Here is my thought. A tarantula that is listed as protected is only protected by the protection status before it enters the United States. Once the tarantulas are in your hands and has made it passed customs and fish and wildlife inspection there is no longer a need to prove ownership rights. There would be no need for inspection during state to state transport within the continental US. If you are moving out of the country, unless you are willing to pay the price if it's legal where you are moving to, it is easier to sell them off to someone else in the states.

Individual identification is impossible because honesty is all that you could go by to ID the tarantula through all the owners. They can't be tattooed, chiped, or painted because of their circulatory system and the fact that they molt. It's a lot of paper pushing that not only would cause alot of wasted time on the breeders/dealers but the casual hobbyist as well.

I disagree. NO one would be required to do this it would be voluntary just like AKC registration. Most breeders already have sp labels that they put on the vials and containers. Getting a sac number would be no problem at all. And like I said earlier it would not be mandatory. Only those that wanted to take part in a T registry would be doing so.

 

[Aubrey Sidwell]

I disagree. NO one would be required to do this it would be voluntary just like AKC registration. Most breeders already have sp labels that they put on the vials and containers. Getting a sac number would be no problem at all. And like I said earlier it would not be mandatory. Only those that wanted to take part in a T registry would be doing so.

This is my exact point. Anything that is voluntary would be very easy to "not do". So at some point all the hard work someone has done to record keep will be lost because all it takes is one person in the loop to not do it. I also never stated anything about anyone being required to do anything. My main point being that because you cannot positively identify each spider outside of it's numbered home that all it takes is neglect, irresponsibility, or just not feeling like doing it for any data of value to become lost or unusable. With dogs like you use in your expample is is much easier to identify the same dog if it's moved to another home. They could have an ID chip embedded or through dental records or even DNA. Try any of that with a tarantula right now.

The labels I use when I breed are to make it easier to identify what I have in my personal stock. My labels conatin info such as Scientific name, molt dates, bred dates, matured dates, and dates egg sac were laid. The data only has meaning to me while they are in my inventory. Once they leave the records being kept by the next owner will be up to them. I agree the information is nice to have but you have to be able to trust the source and we all know some people aren't honest.

None of the data collected would be of use without a way to attatch is directly to the acutal tarantula which is what I said would be impossible to do.

 

[Travis K]

you would have to have a password to activate an individual T's registration. All the information you stated above is great too, but if were able to incorporate data for like this in a long term data base then we would gain a nice bit of information.

I know not every one would do it, that is fine. The fact that every one wouldn't be doing it is another thing that suggest we wouldn't have cheaters or scamers there really wouldn't be a point to falsifing a registration number.

The seller would only give a Sac# with the sling or T, if the new owner wanted to register the T then they could do so. I would bet it would get very popular in our group.

 

[Travis K]

the details on how to get the sac numbers wouldn't be that hard. have numbers for genus, species, maternal combinations(if unregistered it would be X's)and then sac date. That is how you could ge the sac number, the last 4 individual numbers will have to be added affter slings/T's are purchased verification code entered and then registered. Small fee to add a name to your T's full serial number.

so if I went on to the data base maybe www.arachnoboards.com/trackyourt.php, and registerd my B. smithi sac it would be Unregistered X Unregisterd w/ pix of coarse. the sac number would start with 05 for Brachypelma, 07 for smithi, 000X for unregistered female, 000X for unregistered male, and finally sac was laid 11/25/2008 so 11252008.

so the new sac number would read 0507000X000X11252008.

bam I get a password for the Number so people that buy/get the slings could go on and get the next 4 digits.

I would simply give a very small peice of paper with my slings that would read

Brachypelma smithi, sac# 0507000X000X11252008(password xc4t)
please log onto www.arachnoboards.com/trackyourt.php
to register your T. DO NOT LOSE THIS TEACKING NUMBER!

this doesn't seem that hard and after a while we would have a lot of information on T in captivity. A system such as this would also be of great benefit to very rare species of T.