Ventilation question?

[J0urney]

Do I need more holes? These are MisterPlexi PB3s 4"x 4"x 8" with 52 3mm holes (26 each side for cross vent). I like to keep the front of my enclosures free of holes to serve as a display side, but I could do another 3 rows in the back. I plan on keeping different arboreal juveniles in these. (Psalmopoeus, H mac, Lampropelma, Tapinauchenius, Pseudoclamoris) I may also use these for my C. lividus and just use 6 inches of sub, but I'm not sure. I have 10 of these so I'm trying to make a standard arboreal enclosure I can reuse. I definitely prefer them over AMACs because they don't have the top section, although I did have to make a clasp using a cabinetry nail and a binder clip cut in half.

 

[Poonjab]

Should work great. I’d throw more holes on the top, but that just my personal preference.

 

[DomGom TheFather]

looks good
but if you are in doubt, a few more holes won't hurt.

 

[Danzog]

Needs more top ventilation

 

[Smotzer]

Looks okay as long as it is on at least two sides. I also usually add a row at sub level and some on the lid, to aid in air movement through, as well as up and out.

 

[Danzog]

Looks okay as long as it is on at least two sides. I also usually add a row at sub level and some on the lid, to aid in air movement through, as well as up and out.

I just picked up a C versicolor my enclosure looks like Swiss cheese

 

[viper69]

That will work

 

[Smotzer]

Swiss cheese

It will thank you for that

 

[J0urney]

Cool, thank you all! Any thoughts on using this for C. lividus?

 

[wesker12]

Cool, thank you all! Any thoughts on using this for C. lividus?

Yeah up to 3-4 inches leg span, itll work for the beauty, add a layer of holes on bottom sides and some holes in middle of sub layer (not too much but still some) goal is increase air flow and subsequently O2 levels and decrease levels of anaeorobic micro organisms (basically to decrease bacterial levels in substrate esp cause it'll be somewhat moist)

 

[Smotzer]

and decrease levels of anaeorobic micro organisms (basically to decrease bacterial levels in substrate esp cause it'll be somewhat moist)

Where did you hear that from? What is the concept of this... soils in the wild are not sterile....and bacteria across the board are not bad and can be beneficial especially in soil health and occur in all oxygen levels, and I have not seen and studies relating soil borne pathogen bacterium in relationship to any tarantula.

 

[wesker12]

Where did you hear that from? What is the concept of this... soils in the wild are not sterile....and bacteria across the board are not bad and can be beneficial especially in soil health, and I have not seen and studies relating soil borne pathogen bacterium in relationship to any tarantula.

Absolutely the wild is not sterile and tbh nothing is outside of a clinic lab settings, absolutely soil pathogens and micro organisms serve a very important role in the health of the soil or substrate. The thing about this hobby, and science as it's more and more underfunded especially on something as specific as theraposidae research regarding their relationship with soil borne organisms, that research will be non existent, your best bet is hypothesis to some extent. Soil in the wild is pretty well aerated compared to a small stuffy container, I'm making a generalized conjecture that the microbiome of my substrate is shifted in a more beneficial direction with the addition of oxygen.

 

[Smotzer]

Absolutely the wild is not sterile and tbh nothing is outside of a clinic lab settings, absolutely soil pathogens and micro organisms serve a very important role in the health of the soil or substrate. The thing about this hobby, and science as it's more and more underfunded especially on something as specific as theraposidae research regarding their relationship with soil borne organisms, that research will be non existent, your best bet is hypothesis to some extent. Soil in the wild is pretty well aerated compared to a small stuffy container, I'm making a generalized conjecture that the microbiome of my substrate is shifted in a more beneficial direction with the addition of oxygen.

Yes but you have nothing to back up this claim that your sub is “safer” or more beneficial. It’s conjecture, it’s just that. There needs to be less conjecture in this hobby as it is already, not
More. Telling a new comer that now they have the added stress about worrying about bacteria levels in the substrate only lends itself to the spread of bad/mis/ faulty information and things like changing out substrate on a regular basis, which does not need to happen nor do we need.

I’ve studied soils, and in no way can say that all soils are well aerated and are just the same across the board cause they’re not there’s not just one soil type or condition that exists... And I don’t think you’ve studied the soil porosity, and relative particle size, level of impaction, of soils in your enclosures relating to aeration vs the plethora of different soil types and conditions tarantulas are found in to compare what is beneficial or not, correlating to any populations of bacterium outside vs. inside enclosures. And soils are aerated from the top down as water moves out of the pore spaces.

 

[wesker12]

Yes but you have nothing to back up this claim that your sub is “safer” or more beneficial. It’s conjecture, it’s just that. There needs to be less conjecture in this hobby as it is already, not
More. Telling a new comer that now they have the added stress about worrying about bacteria levels in the substrate only lends itself to the spread of bad/mis/ faulty information and things like changing out substrate on a regular basis, which does not need to happen nor do we need.

I’ve studied soils, and in no way can say that all soils are well aerated and are just the same across the board cause they’re not there’s not just one soil type or condition that exists... And I don’t think you’ve studied the soil porosity, and relative particle size, level of impaction, of soils in your enclosures relating to aeration vs the plethora of different soil types and conditions tarantulas are found in to compare what is beneficial or not, correlating to any populations of bacterium outside vs. inside enclosures. And soils are aerated from the top down as water moves out of the pore spaces.

Lol do you really think there's peer reviewed research on so many things essential to the hobby like breeding? Should we stop that considering most if not every person whose bred theraposidae has operated on conjecture?
Obviously in the entire natural world there will be diversity in aeration of soil but a couple holes in the bottom level which is a completely enclosed static environment otherwise is a good thing. If you don't think something as essential as oxygen makes a difference in microbiome you got a lot to learn.


adding holes is not really added stress or maintaining general awareness of good biology but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

 

[Smotzer]

Lol do you really think there's peer reviewed research on so many things essential to the hobby like breeding? Should we stop that considering most if not every person whose bred theraposidae has operated on conjecture?
Obviously in the entire natural world there will be diversity in aeration of soil but a couple holes in the bottom level which is a completely enclosed static environment otherwise is a good thing. If you don't think something as essential as oxygen makes a difference in microbiome you got a lot to learn.


adding holes is not really added stress or maintaining general awareness of good biology but different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Yes aeration but you have no claim to make remarks in bacterium levels, in your substrate and how that relates to tarantulas vs any enclosure or outside. You don’t know and haven’t monitored actual bacterium or pathogen levels and or whether or not that even matters. I haven’t myself in enclosures, I have in soils, so it would be unfounded to claim that this is something we need to worry about. And you also have no information on what type of bacteria is potentially harmful to T's in this case, you have obligate aerobic bacteria vs. obligate anaerobes vs. microaerophyllic vs. facultative (which can change depending on presence of oxygen). So what type is the harmful bacteria in this case? Bacteria is not a one size fits all kinda shoe and dont only live in oxygen depleted eviornments.

basically to decrease bacterial levels

 

[wesker12]

Yes aeration but you have no claim to make remarks in bacterium levels, in your substrate and how that relates to tarantulas vs any enclosure or outside. You don’t know and haven’t monitored actual bacterium or pathogen levels and or whether or not that even matters. I haven’t myself in enclosures, I have in soils, so it would be unfounded to claim that this is something we need to worry about. And you also have no information on what type of bacteria is potentially harmful to T's in this case, you have obligate aerobic bacteria vs. obligate anaerobes vs. microaerophyllic vs. facultative (which can change depending on presence of oxygen). So what type is the harmful bacteria in this case? Bacteria is not a one size fits all kinda shoe and dont only live in oxygen depleted eviornments.

Exactly! There are so many different types of micro organisms and there's not really any research on pathogens that affect theraposidae, we DONT know whether there are more harmful pathogens in aerobic or anaerobic or whichever....you know what I do know? That monocultures or any environment with low diversity in microfauna is not the healthiest environment, I would instead prefer to create in my artificial little micro climate, conditions that increase diversity by having aerobic bacteria compete with anaerobic which compete with microaerophyllic vs. facultative. Now if you argued that making that layer of holes in the bottom level would not result in a adequate enough O2 increase to affect levels of microfauna then maybe you have a point but while I haven't personally measured substrate oxygen differences and I'm sure it's based on more than a half dozen to dozen variables I can make assumptions.


Your right however that "basically to decrease bacterial levels" is not really a completely correct statement.

 

[J0urney]

OK, i just went down about a 2hr rabbit hole trying to figure this one out. I'm not sure if the microbiome plays all that critical of a role here, especially trying to avoid anaerobic bacteria. If that was true people would poke holes in their substrate. I was trying to find bacteria that is harmful to spiders and it seems pretty rare, anaerobic not. Also I'm not sure if there would be more oxygen. Effusion through a hole larger than the mean free path is modeled by Samson's flow is only present when there is a difference in pressure. A spider probably cannot produce a great difference in pressure just through the consumption of O2. Also too much ventilation means more frequent wetting of the substrate. This means that I will always be effecting the soils water filled porosity on the top layer. I would assume doing this more often would contribute to a more anaerobic environment.

Also, at what point is there diminishing returns on ventilation? I was trying to figure this out but couldn't find any equations that modeled this behavior. I would assume that if you had a container with a large enough hole that increasing the size even more would have almost no effect.

I also want to add that I am no means an expert at any of the subjects at hand. Just a Bio Engineering student with a passion for T's. Thanks to yall I had a lot of fun and learned some new things.

 

[Smotzer]

Exactly! There are so many different types of micro organisms and there's not really any research on pathogens that affect theraposidae, we DONT know whether there are more harmful pathogens in aerobic or anaerobic or whichever....you know what I do know? That monocultures or any environment with low diversity in microfauna is not the healthiest environment, I would instead prefer to create in my artificial little micro climate, conditions that increase diversity by having aerobic bacteria compete with anaerobic which compete with microaerophyllic vs. facultative. Now if you argued that making that layer of holes in the bottom level would not result in a adequate enough O2 increase to affect levels of microfauna then maybe you have a point but while I haven't personally measured substrate oxygen differences and I'm sure it's based on more than a half dozen to dozen variables I can make assumptions.


Your right however that "basically to decrease bacterial levels" is not really a completely correct statement.

I feel better about your point hereI can agree with that.. All good dude. And that was kinda my point on aerationn with "And soils are aerated from the top down as water moves out of the pore spaces." I enjoyed the lively debate on bacteria and aeration went to school for plant and soil sciences, so I always love talking about any soil topic.

 

[wesker12]

Always my man, it was a good conversation, and I learned a bit more which is always good, you bring up a good point with water and aeration, the physical act of permeating liquid as well as dissolved oxygen levels in the water and all that!

Oh man, I'm so jelly, plant and soil sciences are so fascinating, you definitely know more about soil diversity and microfauna then me then! I went to school for neuroscience but minored in wildlife bio and biochem and was always a huge animal nerd

 

[Smotzer]

Always my man, it was a good conversation, and I learned a bit more which is always good, you bring up a good point with water and aeration, the physical act of permeating liquid as well as dissolved oxygen levels in the water and all that!

Oh man, I'm so jelly, plant and soil sciences are so fascinating, you definitely know more about soil diversity and microfauna then me then! I went to school for neuroscience but minored in wildlife bio and biochem and was always a huge animal nerd

Yeah it was a good one, and glad we can get back to beinng AB friends lol.

Yeah they are my first love! Soils, plants and trees are what I revolved around for a long time.

Man Nueroscience/ nuerobiology has always been an interest of mine since I had brain surgery when i was 16. and now I teach some basic nueroscience of addiction/ anxiety in a treatment group in my new prof. Small world!