Vaejovis spinigerus babies

[mholmgree]

Got home late last night, decided to feed the guys and girls. Haven't seen the devil in a few days, which is common. Lifted her rock just to be sure she's still alive. And I find her sitting on a pile of babies.
Sorry for the crappy pic quality. There are 11 on here back. And approximately 20 or so piled under her.
She is already eating some. I took the pic and l lowered the rock back down and left her alone. This morning she was out walking around, still 11 on her back. I left her alone.
This is my first shot at babies. Any tips would be appreciated. I'd like to raise them if possible. As long as she doesn't eat them all.


Some info on this setup:
This community started as 3 about 6 months ago. I bought them all at the same time, as an attempt to be communal. She killed the other that was her size, I found her eating it. The other one was very small, but they got along and never fought. However, about 2 months ago the small one was dead. It appeared complete, I don't think she tried to eat it. Now I find these babies. So I'm curious if anyone thinks maybe the small one was a male? They rarely came out except for the middle of the night. So I'm not really sure what their habits were.

 

[Danimal]

There really isn't much you can do at the moment if she is eating them. I would not disturb her again (lifting up the rock) and wait until the babies come off her back and are scattered around the tank. Scoop each one up and put then in separate containers. As you have found out, these are not communal. Keep the babies like you would the adult, with a slightly higher humidity to help with growth molting. Feed 1-2x a week.

 

[mholmgree]

There really isn't much you can do at the moment if she is eating them. I would not disturb her again (lifting up the rock) and wait until the babies come off her back and are scattered around the tank. Scoop each one up and put then in separate containers. As you have found out, these are not communal. Keep the babies like you would the adult, with a slightly higher humidity to help with growth molting. Feed 1-2x a week.

i've already got the containers ready for when/if there are any left. from what i can see without messing around in the tank she has only eaten a few, there are still many under her, the same 11 on her. i don't plan on going in the tank for any reason. i guess i'm more curious if i should try and feed her while the babies are still with her?

 

[Danimal]

No, do not try to feed her. There is a large misconception that mom's are very hungry after birth and that is why they eat the babies. I have found no evidence to support this. If a mother feels like her babies are in danger, she will eat them out of protection so no one else does. That is why it is very important to not stress them out. 7-10 days after the birth, you should see them running around.

 

[mholmgree]

No, do not try to feed her. There is a large misconception that mom's are very hungry after birth and that is why they eat the babies. I have found no evidence to support this. If a mother feels like her babies are in danger, she will eat them out of protection so no one else does. That is why it is very important to not stress them out. 7-10 days after the birth, you should see them running around.

thanks. hope to see them running around...

 

[Olsin]

If a mother feels like her babies are in danger, she will eat them out of protection so no one else does.

First it was immature scorpions can mate and now this..That's quite a statement Danimal. I'd like to know what has made you come to this assumption? Do you have a unique insight into scorpion psychology or is it something you've heard .. Eating them to protect them ... i've never heard anything like it.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Good luck with the new brood.

 

[mholmgree]

First it was immature scorpions can mate and now this..That's quite a statement Danimal. I'd like to know what has made you come to this assumption? Do you have a unique insight into scorpion psychology or is it something you've heard .. Eating them to protect them ... i've never heard anything like it.

I have no knowledge either way...

But would you agree that I should not feed her?

 

[mholmgree]

Good luck with the new brood.

Thanks. Hope all goes well...

 

[Olsin]

But would you agree that I should not feed her?

Yes i would .. The less disturbance the better, whether it be from you placing prey items in the enclosure or prey items scampering about. As she has started eating some of the young i'd say leave her totally alone until you see 2nd instars running around.
Some species are prone to this type of behaviour when disturbed while others seem to be not so easily disturbed and will tolerate a certain amount of disturbance.

An example:

I had a R.laticauda brood not so long ago and like you i found first out about it after i had disturbed her by checking up on her after 2 or 3 weeks of not seeing her. I took a picture of her brood which would also have been a slight disturbance for her. To compound the problem of disturbance the male was still in with her and actually mated with her again while she had young on her back. I took another picture. I didn't remove the male until the following day which again encompassed a certain amount of disturbance for the female. A week and a half later with no further disturbances i saw 2nd instars in the enclosure. I had counted 11 young on her back with the aid of a picture and to my relief i fished 11, 2nd instars out of her enclosure. She had eaten none of them and all had moulted and left the mothers back without incident.

Back to your situation .. For whatever reason your female has decided to eat some of her young. Whether it be because of stress in the form of disturbance or incorrect environmental factors or some other undefined reason is irrelevant at this stage .. The point is she is doing it and there's basically nothing you can do to stop her. Leaving her totally alone is no insurance that she won't eat more but it's basically all you can really do unless of course you took the rather dodgy measure of removing the young and trying to rear them to 2nd instar yourself. If you feel that may be the only way you are going to get any young out of her then read this thread. It gives information on raising 1st instar scorplings.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/sho...or-Mother-died&highlight=mother+eating+babies it

Although i would personally only do this if the mother died or the 1st instar young had dropped from her and didn't get back up. If you are new to scorpions then it will probably be best for you to allow the mother to do her job and hope she doesn't eat more.

One last thing ... No one really knows why some scorpions eat their young although i'm of the opinion that environmental factors play and important role....Eating them because she instinctively knows they won't survive due to incorrect environmental parameters sounds more logical to me than eating them to protect them....But this of course is just my opinion.

 

[mholmgree]

I should clarify I've only seen her actually eat 1. My wife said it looked like she was eating something but wasn't sure, she's not really fond of my pets.
So far the 11 are still on her back while the others are basically being incubated by her. The mound of babies is bigger than her. The 11 literally cover her. I can see her slightly under her rock without messing in the tank, she's just hanging out on the baby pile as of now.
Now I guess I'll just wait and see what happens.
Thanks for all the responses

 

[Olsin]

I should clarify I've only seen her actually eat 1.

Ahhh, i see . When you initially said "she is already eating some" i took that to mean she was happily munching away on her brood....OK, that's a different ball game then .. Just leave her alone, make sure the environmental factors are spot on and you'll probably end up with a healthy clutch of young ones...To aid them successfully moulting to 2i it might be a good idea to slightly increase the humidity in a week or so..Do this not by spraying but by gently placing a water bowl (with small pebbles in to hinder any young ones getting in it and drowning) in her enclosure and sealing the lid. Be of course aware of not disturbing her to much when you do this.

Good luck mate

 

[Ludedor24]

Ive actually kept this species communal for a very long time with no problem. As they said dont disturb her but chances are shes going to eat or abandom them..In my experience if most of the babies arnt on the back (unless shes still birthing) its not looking good. She may decide to save some.....Also....This is an extremely slow growing species I have some born 6 months ago still 3i.


Best of luck!

 

[Danimal]

First it was immature scorpions can mate and now this..That's quite a statement Danimal. I'd like to know what has made you come to this assumption? Do you have a unique insight into scorpion psychology or is it something you've heard .. Eating them to protect them ... i've never heard anything like it.

Imagine what the world would be like if only things you have heard of were true?

Let me elaborate on my post:

1. There are a multitude of reasons for scorpions (as well as other animals / mammals/ etc) eat their young. This behavior is especially documented with species that have a large amount of offspring. Reasons include: Mother senses that one is unhealthy, competition for food, defense, stress/nervousness, environmental parameters (which you stated) and yes, it has been documented, that if some species feel that they, or the young and in danger, they will eat the young first. Is this some type of psychological thing that animals think is justified? I have no idea. It could be that they assume they young is going to be eaten regardless, might as well be the parent who eats them? Who knows?

2. It is not my job, nor anyone else to educate you, or 'prove' something, every time you have "never heard of it". I am sure there are a lot of things that are true that you are not aware of. Please feel free to educate yourself on those topics. If you find something that is contradictory to what I have said, please feel free to share it.

3. I was under the impression that the mother was eating a lot of the young, not just one. This could easily just been a baby that fell off the mothers back, THAT THE MOM ASSUMED WOULDN'T MAKE IT, and she ate it.

4. Lastly, the OP asked for some tips to help keep the young that are still alive from dying. Let's try to focus on helping him, rather than troll every post of mine to make a comment that you cannot provide any backing for.

 

[Bayushi]

Just me chiming in here on the topic of feeding the mother after she gives birth.

I have never lost a brood due to feeding any of the species i breed because I fed the mother.

I am not saying you are wrong Danimal, I am just saying that it has never happened with me.

On another note, since you brought up mammals eating their young because the mother senses (insert the string of reasons you listed)... pigs both wild and domestic will eat their young and it has nothing to do with any of the reasons listed. it is because of a protein deficiency the mother has from being pregnant and birthing.

To the OP. Just leave her be and wait it out. if you feel the need to feed her, offer her a pre-killed cricket. The less you stress her the better off both her and the young will be.

 

[groundcrazy]

Danimal you are right on this... I've been been caring for inverts for years now and every bit of information is quite vital up to now, actually it's a non stop learning process to compare recent studies or even old ones..truth or myth i don't care as long as I have files or studies to compare with mine...keep posting sir.

 

[Danimal]

Just me chiming in here on the topic of feeding the mother after she gives birth.

I have never lost a brood due to feeding any of the species i breed because I fed the mother.

I am not saying you are wrong Danimal, I am just saying that it has never happened with me.

On another note, since you brought up mammals eating their young because the mother senses (insert the string of reasons you listed)... pigs both wild and domestic will eat their young and it has nothing to do with any of the reasons listed. it is because of a protein deficiency the mother has from being pregnant and birthing.

To the OP. Just leave her be and wait it out. if you feel the need to feed her, offer her a pre-killed cricket. The less you stress her the better off both her and the young will be.

Bayushi,

I am not saying that feeding the mother can't be done, or that it will guarantee babies being eaten. With most hardy species, it will probably be fine, however my opinion is that the less bothering that is done to a mother who just gave birth the better. Example, B. gigas will eat their babies if you even breathe in their direction (that is extreme but you get my point). Better safe than sorry is what I was getting at.

As far as the protein deficiency. I am sure there are a ton of reasons other than what you or I posted, I was just throwing ones out from the top of my head.

Thanks for the input!

---------- Post added 08-09-2012 at 09:04 PM ----------

Danimal you are right on this... I've been been caring for inverts for years now and every bit of information is quite vital up to now, actually it's a non stop learning process to compare recent studies or even old ones..truth or myth i don't care as long as I have files or studies to compare with mine...keep posting sir.

I appreciate it. My last post probably came off as a bit rude. That was not my intention. However, to call someone out on their information based on the fact that it has never been seen by you is bold in my opinion.
,
I have been keeping inverts for 10 years. I have read numerous studies, and have a lot of experience with numerous species, but it would be impossible for me to dig up a source for everything that I have said on this board. I by no means no everything, not even close. If I say something that is incorrect and someone can back it up, I will by all means be the first to admit I was wrong. However, to call someone out and say they are wrong based on the fact that they have not experienced it, seems silly to me.

 

[mholmgree]

Didn't realize or mean for this to start any arguments.
I appreciate all the info being shared. I'm by no means an expert. But I'm not surprised by her eating some. I mean at the end of the day she is just a bug. Who knows whats going through that brain. Maybe she's content with the ones that are on her back and sees the rest as food...? Maybe that's how nature intended it...?
She has eaten 2 more that I've seen. Which still leaves a pile. And the 11 on her back.
I'm not going to feed or mess with her. I'll just let nature take its course, either they live or she eats them.
Hopefully I'll have good updates in a week or two.
Thanks again for all the info/opinions

 

[Danimal]

You're good man. Keep us posted on how everything turns out!

 

[Olsin]

I have been keeping inverts for 10 years. I have read numerous studies, and have a lot of experience with numerous species, but it would be impossible for me to dig up a source for everything that I have said on this board. I by no means no everything, not even close. If I say something that is incorrect and someone can back it up, I will by all means be the first to admit I was wrong. However, to call someone out and say they are wrong based on the fact that they have not experienced it, seems silly to me.

To say that a scorpion eats it's young to protect them is in my opinion, ludicrous. There are so many things we don't know about scorpions so to state matter of factly that that was the reason for her doing it was a giant assumption and has no basis in scientific study. At least i have never read anything that suggests that is the reason for such behaviour.
If on the other hand you could back up your claims with valid documentation then i stand corrected although i'm guessing, just like your claims that immature scorpions can still mate, that no documentation will be forthcoming.

Don't get me wrong ... I'm not attacking you. I would just like to see some kind of documentation for your claims....and of course there are many things i don't know...No single person holds the monoply on world knowledge. When i state that i have never heard of your claims and therefore have a hard time believing them, that is based on my 10 years of keeping inverts. So, instead of getting defensive as soon as someone disagrees with you why don't you simply refer said person to the relevant litturature and let that speak for itself.

To many people make assumptions or reads someone elses assumptions that then end up becoming fact without any scientific basis behind it. At the very least you could have simply added "in my opinion" at the end of your assumption and not painted it as fact.