T. Stirmi, white Joints, behavior change.

[feXch]

Hey guys, it's been a while that I've been truly stumped on a T condition, but I'm not even sure of key words to search here...

The basic details:
A few weeks ago I purchased a T. Stirmi from a reliable source and the first week she was fantastic. Exploring her new enclosure, playing in her water dish and hide, moving things. Everything I normally expect. However, of the last few weeks she has completely stopped. She dumps her dish onto the substrate and stays in it will not move. When I purchased her I was told she had molted only a month or so ago and she is about 6" so I don't think a molt is coming. It also DOES look like her rump is rubbed raw and there are black shiny spots on her legs on the inside like she has rubbed those raw as well. Not really much in her enclosure that she can rub herself that way on.

The New Problem:
Today (being feeding day) I didn't expect her to eat just wanted to check on her and she now has white coming out of her joints. Like, up and out of her joints. She still has feeling and does not behave like the legs are dead. But would like to stop that from happening if possible.

What have I done so far?:
I've partial wrapped the top of the screen so humidity stays more constant. Checked the substrate for parasites as best I could. Cleaned and baked the water dish for bacteria.

I'm not 100% sure what key words to use when searching for information so if there is a link to somewhere that has already answered a lot of this please let me know. I will add some photos as well, I would prefer not to bug her any more if I can help it however, if more photos are needed I can get them.

 

[Oreo]

Could she have fallen or caught her feet in the screen? If so, maybe change the setup and you could apply some liquid bandage/super glue if there is any fluid coming out of the joints.

 

[845BigRed]

I don't think she molted recently. That or she's a serious hair flinger, her butts totally bald (I know mine hasn't molted since I got her in July and she has a full abdomen of hair compared to this). They almost look like part of the old molt to be honest. If there isn't fluid coming from them I wouldn't worry too much. I see you have moss in there, try grouping it up next to the water dish. I had a large spot of moss next to mines dish so when I overflow the dish it soaks into the moss. As far as overall humidity, with that much water on the glass it looks to be 80-90% humidity in there.

I tried googling it cause now I wanna know should my Stirmi start showing those signs too, but I honestly think that's part of the old molt.

 

[feXch]

Hey guys thanks for the response!

I have been in touch with local breeders as well as Paul and Ken trying to find a solution. The biggest thing with this SP is keeping it humid without making it swampy. Her tank isn't swampy but it is moist. Moss is good however Sphagnum moss has been listed as a no-no by a breeder moss to use which is what I have been using.

As far as a break that is possible however she has full use of the limbs that have the issue, also as far as a left over from her last molt I don't believe so because it wasn't apparent when I purchased her. It appeared on her a day ago now. Also talking with people that keep this SP she isn't as freshly molted as was first indicated to me. The black on the legs, the loss of hair on the rump and her dull color is a sign she should actually be molting soon.

The overall Corrections so far have been:
Removing the moss and baking all new substrate at 350 for 15 min including hide and dish.
Verified that 4-5" of substrate is in the enclosure. All layers moist but not swampy, top layer a little dryer than the bottom.
Raised the overall temperature of the room however, Micro-climate set ups are best and will be made when I am able to.
At this time, wrapped both sides of the screen of the enclosure with plastic wrap. This will aid with humidity HOWEVER not with heat, so can only be a temporary solution.

No update as to what the substance is, It's solid not liquid like fungus/mold and thankfully it's not moving so it doesn't look parasitic. Will continue to keep this updated and with luck maybe run into someone who may have seen this, also, good for documentation for future reference.

 

[vespers]

. Also talking with people that keep this SP she isn't as freshly molted as was first indicated to me. The black on the legs, the loss of hair on the rump and her dull color is a sign she should actually be molting soon.

Its obvious that it isn't freshly molted; surely not a month ago. And no, its not molting all that soon according to your pictures; the abdomen is much too pale.

Removing the moss and baking all new substrate at 350 for 15 min including hide and dish.

Pointless.

Verified that 4-5" of substrate is in the enclosure. All layers moist but not swampy, top layer a little dryer than the bottom.

The depth of the substrate from the bottom is not so important with Theraphosa, the bigger issue is making sure there is a safe distance between the top of the enclosure and the substrate to prevent falls.

Raised the overall temperature of the room however, Micro-climate set ups are best and will be made when I am able to.
At this time, wrapped both sides of the screen of the enclosure with plastic wrap. This will aid with humidity HOWEVER not with heat, so can only be a temporary solution.

Why raise the temps? Is your room cold? Don't compromise the ventilation with too much wrap though...

No update as to what the substance is, It's solid not liquid like fungus/mold and thankfully it's not moving so it doesn't look parasitic. Will continue to keep this updated and with luck maybe run into someone who may have seen this, also, good for documentation for future reference.

I've never had the white substance issue. That its on the leg joints, and you mentioning "screen" is concerning. Like oreo mentioned, hopefully it doesn't get tarsal claws caught in the screen and compromise any joints freeing itself. Keep us posted.

 

[SuzukiSwift]

She certainly does seem dark enough to be in premoult, I have no experience with this genus however but I'd go so far as to say that if her behaviour seems strictly 'premoult behaviour' then I wouldn't worry about the white stuff. If it appeared overnight then it won't be parasitic or mites etc. (especially considering it's that large) and she has full function of the leg therefor it's not hemolymph.

 

[vespers]

She certainly does seem dark enough to be in premoult

The abdomen will become much darker. The bald spot will turn from that light tan cream color, to a dark chocolate/near-black color.

 

[feXch]

Hello again and thank you for the replies!

- Freshly molted no, however I have never seen a freshly molted Stirmi, they are very very rare in my area, all the ones I have ever seen have been this color, the research I did showed their "Freshly molted" Stirmi this color.
- Baking is something I have always done, and has been recommended to me by 3 (in my eyes) highly reputable breeders. I also do not see it as pointless because it does remove anything "Living" within it giving a clean slate to see if this is something in my environment or was being caused by product.
- Theraphosa are listed as a terrestrial burrower, even Ken states he creates a dug out cave with the hide big enough for the spider to go into. That would require at least 3-4 inches of substrate, I added that and then went to 5, well, because I feel like it.
- I do agree with the safe distance from the top.
- Generally the room (my bed room) was kept at higher 70's which for these SPs (even more so for WC) needs to be 85 and no lower than 82. I did not have this as the case when this started.
- As far as ventilation, I was worried about that to, however, it was also recommenced to me to use Styrofoam or acrylic to lock in heat/moisture. The plastic wrap is lipped at either end so there can be some air exchange.
- While I cant guarantee that she didn't manage to catch herself somewhere, I have done everything to make that highly unlikely.
- With the molting the way it was explained to me the way she looks now is very Pre-moltish. The darkening occurs much more closely to when the molt is going to occur and it is highly unlikely that she has molted within the last 8-10 months.


On to other news with the changes made, she has taken to limited wandering about the enclosure, however the joint with the more prominent issue is getting larger. Again it looks like it is pushing up and out of the Femur -over- the Patella and is still chalk white in color, and is still solid. I feel I can attribute some of this to when I had to remove her to clean the enclosure and had her in a catch cup, she didn't like that to much. Now that she is settled and I'm not having to disturb her I should be able to give more clean/accurate recovery information.

Also adding a photo showing the changes.
** P.S. The moisture is not from misting, it's all natural evaporation.

 

[vespers]

Freshly molted no, however I have never seen a freshly molted Stirmi, they are very very rare in my area, all the ones I have ever seen have been this color, the research I did showed their "Freshly molted" Stirmi this color.

A freshly molted stirmi is very dark, almost black. Like the photo in this thread:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?227533-Concerned-about-my-freshly-molted-T-Stirmi

Baking is something I have always done, and has been recommended to me by 3 (in my eyes) highly reputable breeders. I also do not see it as pointless because it does remove anything "Living" within it giving a clean slate to see if this is something in my environment or was being caused by product.

That sterile "clean slate" lasts for mere seconds in reality.

Theraphosa are listed as a terrestrial burrower, even Ken states he creates a dug out cave with the hide big enough for the spider to go into. That would require at least 3-4 inches of substrate, I added that and then went to 5, well, because I feel like it. .

They are rather opportunistic. You'll pretty much find them using a hole or hide, and not actually burrowing (which is why Ken and the rest of us provide something similar). But by default you'll have a few inches of substrate in your enclosure anyway.

Generally the room (my bed room) was kept at higher 70's which for these SPs (even more so for WC) needs to be 85 and no lower than 82. I did not have this as the case when this started.

This is completely false information. They do NOT need to be kept in the 80's or "above 82". (82? who came up with that number? LOL) 70's are more than adequate, WC or not.

As far as ventilation, I was worried about that to, however, it was also recommenced to me to use Styrofoam or acrylic to lock in heat/moisture. The plastic wrap is lipped at either end so there can be some air exchange.

Lock in heat from what source?

** P.S. The moisture is not from misting, it's all natural evaporation.

Ventilation must be quite limited for all of that condensation to build up, then.

 

[feXch]

This information and the things done was direct advise from: Paul Becker (Pet Center USA), Joey Mugleston (Joey Mugleston exotics), Jason Rencher (TBreeders.com), Ken (Ken the bug guy), Rob C. (videos) and others. So it's not false information
Again, Stirmi are very rare in Utah, So I've never seen a newly molted one and I have seen some that molted and are still the brown color online. Color variation is always possible.

She is doing far better today than she was two days ago so their advise has obviously helped. Also while I appreciate your advise and your response and agree with some of the information, fact is the changes made have assisted her greatly. The original issue is still present even if she is behaving better, eating drinking and moving. The war isn't over until she molts which may take some time but I will continue to document whats going on.

To answer everything in order:
1- Thank you for the photo, as stated above the only resources were available online, I'm new to the species so was going off of what was given to me when I purchased her.
2- Yes: there is always a type of organism always present at any time when an object comes in contact with open air, however, in doing the baking It does reset anything that may have been introduced from fecal matter to issues on feeders in old soil. With new, anything that it may have come in contact with at the store, as well as mites from sitting to long allowing for better records and monitoring of the environment you are creating.
3- Yes they are opportunistic, hence why we create their dens for cosmetic and simplicity reasons. However, having 2-3" of substrate for a 6" spider would limit greatly what it would be able to do. I currently have over 100 Ts in my collection all terrestrial have been behaving far better with the introduction to an inch or two more of substrate.
4- Several different sources state that for more tropical SPs raising the temps above 85, then letting it dip to high 70s is ok, keeping the temp overall constant is not ok. 70s not only promotes fungal and mold growth, it also slows their metabolic rate. As a direct quote from one of the conversations with one of the breeders above: "We want our tarantulas to thrive, not just survive." This means creating as close to their natural habitat as possible, which for this SP can be anywhere from 78 degree to 90 degree scale, 85 degree average. (if you look at aviation weather reports for that area, not just general weather information from wikipidia that is the information given)
5- Heat source provided is raising the room temperature as a whole rather than just inside the tank itself. Singular tank temperature raising would require a Micro-climate which I am unable to create at this time, so Temperatures are created as a whole. While room temperature is reading 78 degrees her tank is reading 86 degrees now.
6- ventilation is not limited. The lid itself is raised about a pencil width from the edge of the tank all the way around and condensation was making it's way to the shelf above her so it has escape.

 

[vespers]

This information and the things done was direct advise from: Paul Becker (Pet Center USA), Joey Mugleston (Joey Mugleston exotics), Jason Rencher (TBreeders.com), Ken (Ken the bug guy), Rob C. (videos) and others. So it's not false information )

Several different sources state that for more tropical SPs raising the temps above 85, then letting it dip to high 70s is ok, keeping the temp overall constant is not ok. 70s not only promotes fungal and mold growth, it also slows their metabolic rate. As a direct quote from one of the conversations with one of the breeders above: "We want our tarantulas to thrive, not just survive." This means creating as close to their natural habitat as possible, which for this SP can be anywhere from 78 degree to 90 degree scale, 85 degree average. (if you look at aviation weather reports for that area, not just general weather information from wikipidia that is the information given)

Yes it is false info. Myself, and many others keep Theraphosa "thriving" in the 70's without issue. Why is that? Perhaps their true natural habitat provides some answers, eh? They live on the rainforest floor, which is shielded and shaded from direct sunlight during the day by the forest canopy, which is actually cooler. Try these two things: Put a thermometer on your floor, and one up on a book shelf. The one on the floor will usually read several degrees cooler. Now, go for a walk in the woods during warm weather. Run your hands through the damp leaf litter on the forest floor. Feels surprisingly cool to the touch, yes? Couple this with the fact that Theraphosa are in burrows during the day, below that level in the ground. Escaping the light and the peak heat of the day. They are mostly active at night. Now, what temperature range do the overnight lows in their native habitat usually fall in? Ah, yes, not the 80's. :wink:

No offense or disrespect to the guys you name-dropped, but I tend to side with science and nature more than the opinions of "pet shop" owners who rarely even agree with each other and a youtube terrarium sensation. Its really time to put old myths to bed and bring the hobby information into the contemporary era.

 

[feXch]

First off; If you missed in elementary school citing where information was received is not name dropping, claiming information and distributing it for yourself is not only lying, but is also very discouraged. Oh and these guys are not your normal "Pet shop" owners. They are respected breeders that I turned to for information that have been doing this for MANY years. I personally contacted them via E-mail asking them directly on the situation, this information was not from a tutorial, EXCEPT for the Rob C videos. The information posted here, was information that was common between all of them and I made my corrections off of that.

Ok now I have to educate on Geo-thermal warming and how that area -actually- works. Where they are native to is heavily forested, those forests actually lock in heat within the condensation that is constantly falling. Hence why if you actually looked at a weather report -from today- states that right now it is low at 79. Average is 80-97 with a common average of 85 degrees this week. When you take into account temperature/dewpoint the closer those numbers are the more Humid/likely to rain and have -warm- condensation. That formula is right now as i type this 82/74. So even what is dripping into the earth is at least 78 degrees. It also has an 85-90 percent humidity rate. This time of year. So even at 82-83 because of how this works it will feel up to 5-10 degrees warmer.

For ground due to thermal inertia, between 5-100 meters of reasonable depth the temperature is closer to the average temperature of the area. Meaning winter the Subsurface is actually -warmer- where in summer the surface is warmer. When you descend, The temperature may seem cooler, however, it is only the average of what the temperature is year round. The deeper you go, the further from the surface, the more constant the temperature compared to the surface air variation. Air heats up and cools down quickly compared to bodies of water. Soil and rock heats and cools slowest of the 3. Animals that burrow aren't always doing it to get to "cooler" locations, they are trying to get to a more stable temperature environment. This is widely known as the Cellar effect: The ability to maintain a temperature with very little effort. Meaning that the ground has absorbed heat and maintains it again, at the relative temperature of the area around it.

So no offense or disrespect, but please verify what information you are posting and whom you are addressing these postings to when replying to issues where a life is on the line. Also, all 'old myths' can be corrected by properly knowing how to use Google. This thread was created for my sick Stirmi. Not to bump chests. This thread was created at first looking for answers, however because I received direct answers soon via email it is now here to update information on what was going on and what changes were made to correct the situation that had a positive effect upon the Tarantula. I personally am very educated on the heating and cooling of the earth and determining factors. I needed more information on what was growing on my tarantula.I have no doubt that you are an educated person, So please stop posting information that is incorrect that can easily be looked up online.

Oh and CITATIONS:
Federal Aviation Administration: Commercial Pilot and International Pilot Exam study prep.
Google
and the great area of Northern Guyana's weather reports.

 

[Kroogur]

They are mostly active at night. Now, what temperature range do the overnight lows in their native habitat usually fall in? Ah, yes, not the 80's. :wink:
Its really time to put old myths to bed and bring the hobby information into the contemporary era.

This is the important part as vespers is quite right: http://www.accuweather.com/en/gy/bartica/187709/daily-weather-forecast/187709 look at the low temps at night when tarantulas which are nocturnal are out and about.

First off; If you missed in elementary school citing where information was received is not name dropping, claiming information and distributing it for yourself is not only lying, but is also very discouraged. Oh and these guys are not your normal "Pet shop" owners. They are respected breeders that I turned to for information that have been doing this for MANY years. I personally contacted them via E-mail asking them directly on the situation, this information was not from a tutorial, EXCEPT for the Rob C videos. The information posted here, was information that was common between all of them and I made my corrections off of that.

Then you already have many of your answers why are you even arguing points with us?

Ok now I have to educate on Geo-thermal warming and how that area -actually- works.

No actually you don't. Many folks on this board (myself included) keep many different T's from all over the world in the same area in our homes at room temp and the T's are perfectly fine. Just use the search function for the boards and you will find this out. If you want to watch a great youtube channel I can't recommend Jon3800's channel highly enough it's a great information source for a diverse collection of T's

I received direct answers soon via email

Then this whole thread was largely pointless except for the white stuff on the knees issue which looks like leftovers from the molt, watch around the 1:43 mark in this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Sbjz1Hsok notice the bright white areas on the legs similar to what is on your T. I know you said it wasn't there when you got the T so hopefully it will clear up with the next molt.

it is now here to update information on what was going on and what changes were made to correct the situation that had a positive effect upon the Tarantula.

I'm glad your T is doing better Thats what it's all about.

 

[Fran]

They are mostly active at night. Now, what temperature range do the overnight lows in their native habitat usually fall in? Ah, yes, not the 80's. :wink:

In the Estado Amazonas in Venezuela where you can find Theraphosa the average temps all year round, this means, all year round, average 26-28 degrees C. Warm and with the amount of humidity (around 90-100% )the sensation is even hotter. .

 

[vespers]

In the Estado Amazonas in Venezuela where you can find Theraphosa the average temps all year round, this means, all year round, average 26-28 degrees C. Warm and with the amount of humidity (around 90-100% )the sensation is even hotter. .

http://www.storm247.com/world/South America/Venezuela/Estado Amazonas

Overnight lows for this week, in Fahrenheit:

Puerto Ayacucho: 73-75
Serrania El Espejo: 72-73
Serrania Guayapo: 68-70
Cerro Pozon: 73-75
Cerro Cumare: 66-70
Cerro Camani: 70-72
Cerro Fonche: 68-70
Cerro Monica: 72-73

 

[DaveSB]

First off; If you missed in elementary school citing where information was received is not name dropping, claiming information and distributing it for yourself is not only lying, but is also very discouraged. Oh and these guys are not your normal "Pet shop" owners. They are respected breeders that I turned to for information that have been doing this for MANY years. I personally contacted them via E-mail asking them directly on the situation, this information was not from a tutorial, EXCEPT for the Rob C videos. The information posted here, was information that was common between all of them and I made my corrections off of that.

What you have done is name dropping, which is when you drop the authors name in without where they say the information thus making the information rely on name alone. Sources, sources, sources. If you had mentioned you had got this information from pers. comm. then people wouldnt flip out at you being a bit of a knob online.

To address your swanky knowledge there, I'd like to ask if you have been to Guyana? I don't know you, nor your knowledge level, nor where you are actually obtaining your data from except googling things on demand. Arguably, to play devils advocate, nothing you've stated can really be used as a 100% confirmed method of stating what temperature is needed for these stars of spiders to "thrive".

What is needed is temperature probing of wild burrows for long periods of time over many years, which is obviously impractical, so lets give up on that argument as noone can win.

On to the case in hand:

Tests are needed.
Find someone with a high power microscope and take a small sample of the white substance and try to identify if there is cellular activity.
To appease the temperature experts in the thread, record temperatures and humidity over 24hrs whenever you have time.
record "growth" of white substance

My gut feeling is that this would be a fungal infection, specifically based on the photos and the terminology used of "up and out" growth.

One major question that needs to be asked is : Is this Wild caught, Wild bred, or ever in contact with wild caught or breeding stock which has been.
If this is a fungal microbe from WC sources, obviously you have a responsibility to inform the seller and your local "network" so that it doesn't spread.

A friend had a similar problem, with a cream pink substance coming from the joints and it was confirmed to be fungal. (Pers. comm.) The infected subject was put down and incinerated and the substance has yet to appear in the rest of his collection.

I wish you good luck that it is not fungal and not harmful to your collection.