Regarding recent Phoneutria for sale in USA

[xhexdx]

I never said nobody is at fault. There is always someone at fault, accident or not.

It's just whether it was something that was intentional or not. If it was unintentional, it was an accident.

I kick a soccer ball at you and it hits you in the nuts. Accident? Assuming I wasn't specifically aiming there, yes. Whose fault? Yours for not moving out of the way? Mine for kicking the ball? Does it matter? Not really, because it was accidental.

No, I'm not comparing a soccer ball to a Phoneutria or Pokie or anything else. My comparison is to illustrate fault vs. accident.

John, saying accidents shouldn't happen is much better, but the fact of the matter is that they WILL happen (advanced keeper or newbie, it doesn't matter).

I also agree with you that being of the 'accidents happen' mentality is a bad attitude to have when dealing with hots but I didn't see any posts on here by members saying they wanted one and that accidents happen. The concern is with these spiders getting into the wrong hands, and then an 'accident' causing the spider to get loose and/or bite someone.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

another

Dont wanna go off topic todd...BUT, selling an 8" female WILD CAUGHT T blondi for $150;
1: Is not the typical but some peoples prices.
2: you are making almost 4 TIMES what the tarantula cost you.
I know this for a fact

I think this should be a new thread Anyways in defence you say you are making 4 times the cost that might be true but not 4 times in profit. I am speaking truthfully when I say I have not made a dime on this business to date. That is why I work a full time job still, granted I have a ton of tarantulas So someone marking something up 4 times does not mean they are making that much money. The people that sell blondi for double mark up or less usually don't stay in business too long or are running shops where they don't care about the animals and want to pull in mass amounts and sell them as fast as possible so they don't have to feed them. Part of the cost is getting them healthy, reships, shipping losses(I know I pay part of shipping), electricity, storage, food, water(I use bottled), ect ect. Anyways I hope a moderator pulls all this out in a new thread as it is unrelated

 

[xenesthis]

off-topic for Fran

Last two imports with T. blondi contained 80% males. With the demand for females, from an importer's perspective, so you are saying the females should sell for $75? It's basic demand and supply. The females have not been in good supply with everybody wanting females, the importers sell the males cheaper and the females for more. This is not news.

Also, the last few years, T. blondi has been coming in smaller and smaller. Average import size for 500 of them is 4"-5". Everybody wants a 8"-10" female. Out of 500, there is only about 10-20 of those. So, the importer needs to sell them to you for $75? and after those 20 8"+ females are sold for $75, how can he market and sell the remaining 480 to a market that only wants big adult females?

It's pure, basic supply and demand economics. Look at retail pricing everywhere on the net and the average price for confirmed adult, large female T. blondi is $125-$150. It's America, if you don't like it, don't buy it, but they do sell for that price all the time. If the seller can't sell it for $150, why doesn't he lower the price to $75? Because of demand. They do sell for that and that is why there isn't a lot of large, adult, confirmed female T. blondi on the market.

Unbelievable to me why this actually needs to be explained.

 

[AzJohn]

O.k. We might be able to regulate certain inverts to *try* to keep idiots from having them. Some dealers/sellers already do this, but how do we regulate idiots?

Case-in-point. Last year, an idiot got his girlfriend's 2 yr. old child killed by his big burmese python. He was supposed to have a permit to keep that snake, but he did not. He allowed the child to be with that snake (over 14 ft.) unsupervised to top it.

Last week, I heard of a guy getting a centipede that he wanted bad. Once he got it, he said that after watching a certain s.c.a.b.i.e.s. member's youtube videos, he wanted to let it crawl on him. He wanted to *try* it. Then, to top it off, he said the "holy spirit" will protect him.

How do we regulate idiots?

I acutally know of guy who wanted to buy a fat tail scorpion. When asked why he started complaining about his girl friend. He didn't get the fat tail.

John

 

[xhexdx]

Anyways I hope a moderator pulls all this out in a new thread as it is unrelated

Speaking of unrelated, here is the original post, in case anyone has forgotten what the actual topic is:

Hello,
Has anyone manged to ID these to a species level?To me it seems quite silly to sell them labeled "Phoneutria Sp. Brazilian Wandering Spider"
These spiders are highly dangerous and super fast so I really hope these stay in the right hands.Anyone who has ever kept huntsman spiders or other true spiders like this can tell you that the speed of these is mind blowing..
Some of the Phoneutria species can be highly defensive from what I've read to.
Now if worst case scenario someone is bit by one of these Phoneutria that are being sold wouldn't it be valuable information to know what species your dealing with????I highly doubt anti-venom is available in most hospitals here but still come on..I don't mean any harm by this post and don't want to insult anyone selling these but doesn't this make sense?
-Chris

The overall redundancy in this thread is astounding; I'd venture to say at least 70% of it is the same people saying the same things.

 

[Hamburglar]

Just to add to this, he didn't have a proper lid on the tank; he was using a towel. The snake got out, and got to the child. Very, very sad. I couldn't imagine what I would do the snake or to the owner if that happened to Joseph.

Regulating idiots is tough, if not damn near impossible. We should do what we can (especially dealers who are selling this genus), but the bottom line, as I stated earlier, is to make sure we are taking every precaution available to keep them from getting loose (if we are keeping them) or from becoming a personal problem (if we are not).

One way to regulate idiots is to include random site inspection as part of the permit process. It might make the permit more expensive, but idiots will be less likely to want someone with a ticket book walking around their animals.

I am no saying this for all of the critters we like to keep, just those that the average person needs to take more seriously. I think keepers need to be involved with setting the standards... Not just some official that has never even seen a pho or doesn't know what a reticulated python is.

 

[xhexdx]

Unbelievable to me why this actually needs to be explained.

I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

site inspection

One way to regulate idiots is to include random site inspection as part of the permit process. It might make the permit more expensive, but idiots will be less likely to want someone with a ticket book walking around their animals.

I am no saying this for all of the critters we like to keep, just those that the average person needs to take more seriously. I think keepers need to be involved with setting the standards... Not just some official that has never even seen a pho or doesn't know what a reticulated python is.

Yah site inspection is not a horrible idea I just fear if we opened the door for that it might start happening with many of our inverts. Well I don't know about some but I don't like the idea of government being able to come into my house at any time.

 

[xenesthis]

joe

>I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.

Ask me in person instead of doing your normal crap here. We can have a very nice talk instead of your power trip you have on the keyboard. You can explain to me your TATS booting out as well.

 

[AzJohn]

Hi Todd.
I have a question about the offspring of smuggled inverts. At what point are they okay if ever. In other words are the captive born offspring of smuggled inverts okay or are they still illegal. If so is there a point when they are good. Say 3 generations of captive bred babies are they fine. So many of the inverts in the hobby started from smuggled individules. Basically every mexican scorpion, and costa rican tarantula. I'd hate to get a CB baby here in the US and find out if it's illegal.

Johh

 

[Fran]

>I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.

Ask me in person instead of doing your normal crap here. We can have a very nice talk instead of your power trip you have on the keyboard. You can explain to me your TATS booting out as well.

Whos going off topic todd?
Very touchy when we go into pricing uh?

Lets stay on topic.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

here

new thread on brown boxing and such

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?p=1605464#post1605464

 

[xhexdx]

>I'm still waiting for you to explain my question to you.

Ask me in person instead of doing your normal crap here. We can have a very nice talk instead of your power trip you have on the keyboard. You can explain to me your TATS booting out as well.

Wow, someone's a little touchy when they get called out, huh?

 

[John Apple]

are you guys even paying attention to what your typing....:?
the fact remains phos are here...they are bad...so what are we gonna do about proper delegation and culture of these...not to mention the perameters needed for safe culture
blondi pricing...whatever man...FREE enterprise...I agree with Todd on that
chest thumping...cmon man lets not bait and switch each other with clever catch phrases to get the last word in...

brown boxing...another thread started

 

[xenesthis]

Cb

John,

Good question, but I've never heard the definitive answer. Ask the reptile guys about stuff like the Bearded dragons. I don't think you will find a regulation, rule or law anyway fully explaining that. Its a very subjective, case-by-case thing.

 

[sharpfang]

Todd Gearheart

Did I Not warn you in PM, actually worded: "BEGG U, Please Do Not respond 2 that Statement"........Just minutes B 4 you did...
{Not that U shouldn't B able 2}.......Now U know why, and how I am treated on AB, 4 giving my Honest Opinions.

Consider the sources.....and utilize your Ignore Feature - I do, Thanx AB

Sincerely, Jason J. Brown

 

[elvasco]

A couple of things,

First let me apologize for coming off a little brash. I don't mean to ignite a fight, I'm not a flamer I promise. I'm not a government entity nor am I collector. I'm an activist (which other than this is unrelated to this hobby) who happens to like spiders... a lot. I'm very interested in them. It's true I don't own any, but I didn't know I had to in order to be into the hobby. I like BMW cars a lot too. I like to read about the specs and discuss them, but alas, I don't own one.

I think Fran has made some excellent points and I completely agree (though I'm afraid to jump in his corner as everyone else might move away ha!). I'm sure there are many people who are capable of having some dangerous things, I just worry about the consequences of if. I don't think owning one of these is worth the potential risk. Let's say (though I don't agree) that only 1 in 50,000 are killed by this thing. What if it's your neighbors little daughter? What are you going to say? "Sorry, I was pursuing happiness in accordance with the constitution?" I'm sorry your daughter died. Furthermore I don't want to make this political, but let's say it bites the neighbor, the dad. He isn't going to die. Matter of fact he'll be just fine, but he's out 2 weeks recovering. What if he's not rich and has to miss work for that time and it affects his family. Are you responsible for lost wages? Or is it ok because "it's not like he died." Would we require antivenom importation? You may not think of these things as just a collector, but I do. I'm worried about who gets these.

I'll give you an example of my concern. I don't want to name names but I'm sure you will all know him I'm talking about. There is a guy who puts videos on youtube all the time who owns what appears to be NUMEROUS spiders and I know he bought some from Ken (because he reviews Ken in a video). I've seen this guy bitten, by a poki. Looked like an accident (but according to AZJohn those should NEVER happen). I've seen in like three of his videos, he fumbles spiders, has spiders chase up his pants etc. He always laughs and says things like "Oh oh she's not mad, she didn't mean to that's my fault." If I had a quarter for everytime he says it's his fault... Would you all be open to selling a Pho to this winner? He even has kids in his house. Again, I don't own any spiders, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like dropping and fumbling them can't be good for their exoskeleton....

Ken - You said you'd be open to that species being regulated and requiring a permit? I agree 100% and that's all I'm asking. I might actually surprise a few of you here by saying that I think your requirements are too stiff. I don't think you need to show anyone how capable you are handling these, as I mentioned before I ask who are you to decide who gets these and I say the same to anyone deciding you have the authority who are they? All I want is for them to be labeled as a "strict liability" commodity and require proof of insurance that covers them as such. For those of you that don't know, strict liability means that if ANYONE is bitten while you're in possesion OR if anyone you sell it to is bitten FOR ANY REASON, you are directly liable for the consequences. That means if the idiot you sell it to decides to play with it on youtube and is bitten, your insurance must cover all damages to him (lost wages, medical bills etc). This is common in the US for products that are inherently dangerous. Now if they only go to the hospital as you all claim that the dangers of this spider are grossly overestimated, then this shouldn't be an issue. You would also be liable if the animal escapes and flourishes. You would be required to keep a list of everyone you sold it to. Of course once it's properly sold, the burden will shift to the buyer as they will also be required to have said permit. Since insurance wouldn't be cheap I feel this would dramatically raise the price of the pho which would be a check in keeping it in proper hands in its own right (goodbye $30 pricetag for the worlds most dangerous spider). If you are serious about this I would be willing to help contact/draft things for some congress people here in California (sorry to folks elsewhere I don't have contacts outside of here). With your support, as a collector, it might happen and then all my concerns go away. Let me know.

One last quick thing. I'm not dismissing the studies done on pho and I think they're very relevant, but I want to reiterate that I truly believe the stats are grossly underestimated again because of the slums of Rio which to my understanding is a hot bed for their breeding and I know there are tons of deaths that go unreported there due to a variety of reasons.

 

[Hamburglar]

How do you decide which animals fall under strict liability? I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't think I should have carry insurance for a brachy or even a pokie really.

 

[elvasco]

How do you decide which animals fall under strict liability? I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't think I should have carry insurance for a brachy or even a pokie really.

I think that's a fair question and I'm not sure. I'm mostly concerned about pho to be honest. I know a lot of people will use this as an opening to jump in and say well what about this this and this, but I think most agree that this guy (pho) is somewhat in it's own category. I could see the same for maybe a Sydney Funnel Web.

 

[John Apple]

possibly for sicarius [worse imo] and l. laeta also but that would be saying what about this and that....so what about phoneutria...well what about them......we had some great posts on care and some precautions to be taken....do I want someone in my basement looking at my collection...well no...But on the other side I have showed my collection to police officers and a good friend in the DNR...granted police might not see an unsafe practice but my friend does...much of my practices he helped me with...