Really worried about weird tarantula movements

[boina]

What? No, Dyskinesia in tarantulas isn't "better compared to coughing and sneezing" in humans... If you have to make a comparison to humans, then Dyskinesia is tarantulas is better compared to dyskinesia in humans.
Which, by the way, also presents very similarly, has similar symptoms, and also has a number of possible causes. It's a much more accurate comparison.
I... yeahno.

It is a medically recognized syndrome. See the link I posted above, the one where veterinarians, professors, doctors, arachnid-oriented lab scientists, vet techs, veterinary pathologists and others got together and basically said 'this is DKS, this is its name, and it's a syndrome'. Or see the direct quote below.

It doesn't need to be thoroughly researched and understood entirely to be a thing, and the causes don't need to be understood to be a thing. Like, Horner's Syndrome in dogs is most often idiopathic (i.e. no discernible cause) but it's still Horner's Syndrome when it has the right symptoms, identifiable cause or not.
Cushing's is a syndrome not because it "defines a set of physiological and pathological changes" or qualifies as a syndrome because we understand how it works; That has nothing to do with the medical definition of a syndrome. A syndrome is nothing more than a set of however many symptoms which often coincide and together can (but don't have to) indicate one or more possible underlying causes which is recognized as such by the majority of the medical community.

But really, when it comes down to it, our opinions don't matter. Veterinarians, techs, professors, veterinary pathologists, arachnid-oriented lab scientists and others who have pertinent education and work professionally with inverts say it's a thing. Did you look at the short bios of the people involved in that decision? They are plenty qualified to call it a syndrome. You have no ground to argue with them.



Of course I don't have you blocked. Why would I do that?

I crazy checked myself and looked up the words I used in the ol' Merriam-Webster MEDICAL Dictionary, just to be sure.

Syndrome: "a group of signs and symptoms that occur together and characterize a particular abnormality"

Condition: "(2a) a usually defective state of health"

Disorder: "an abnormal physical or mental condition : ailment"

Secondary: "(1)not first in order of occurrence or development: (2) dependent or consequent on another disease or condition"

Primary: "1a(1) first in order of time or development: b(1) arising spontaneously : idiopathic"

I think part of the problem is that you're confusing disorder and disease, and they are entirely different (but sometimes overlapping) things. As I've said, as far as we know DKS is not a disease.
So yes, I'm very familiar with the correct usage of the words, and I used the words correctly according to a MEDICAL dictionary.

...

And again, the Veterinary Invertebrate Society and the British & Irish Association of Zoos & Aquaiums' Terrestrial Invertebrate Working Group got together and said:
"In October 2014 a meeting of the VIS and BIAZA TIWG confirmed the use of Dyskinesis Syndrome (shortened to DKS) as the official description for such ataxic movements. The use of the word syndrome signifies the lack of knowledge as all we know about the condition is a collection of clinical signs."
... which is the definition of the word "syndrome", and they outright say it is a syndrome. Read it again. And then maybe reread the definitions above, if needed.

And they continue:
".. . causes of such dysfunction are diverse and include, dehydration, infection, intoxication and neuronal injury. Many of these could indeed be causative agents for DKS and it is very likely that further investigation will reveal slightly different pathologies arising from different causes."
which is saying that the syndrome is a secondary condition and the primary cause(s) is(are) as of yet undetermined.

QUOTE="boina, post: 3015245, member: 108127"]@The Grym Reaper Don't fall for the "it has been proven by science" stuff. Feral severely over-interprets the available data.

I haven't read all of it and I won't. I already said I first used a wrong definition of syndrome.

All the rest is just you showing off your "superior" knowledge which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The point people were trying to make: DKS is not a recognised single disease but a collection of symptoms that can mean anything. You did your best to obscure that, so congratulations.

(Edit: It is generally a good idea to try to understand what people mean instead of hitting them with semantics that are completely irrelevant for the OP. Edit 2: and I'm not looking up the definition of every word I use, just for you, when it's clear to everyone else what I mean.)

Believe me, I've learned not to argue with you - I'm out, as usual you have the thread to yourself.

A little good news.
Another hour and a half has passed and now she is with a raised leg and with the others twitching a bit.
I don't know if is it good or not, but at least she seems more alive than before

Don't go to the vet - I've yet to see, or hear of, a single vet that did anything useful to a spider. You are just stressing your spider out and in her current condition that can mean certain death.

Edit: To clarify: Animals with neurological symptoms (including humans) don't react well to further stress. In fact, that further stress may very well be the last straw for the neuronal system to completely overreact and that means the spider dies.

 

[mjzheng]

As someone curious and worried about this guy's spider it's really frustrating and sad it gets buried under a massive argument over one comment and a word.

It's not the time and place.

Hope your spider improves OP, glad it is acting a tiny bit better today .

 

[boina]

As someone curious and worried about this guy's spider it's really frustrating and sad it gets buried under a massive argument over one comment and a word.

It's not the time and place.

Hope your spider improves OP, glad it is acting a tiny bit better today .

Yes. Sorry for my part in it.

 

[Feral]

@Firestorm3 I'm sorry that it got sidetracked and muddled, it should have been a quick open/shut type of thing. But on the other hand, I'm also glad correct information is put out there. I know this is a terrible time for you, but this thread might help other people in your shoes, either now or in the future.

@boina, I'm not superior to anyone, and my knowledge is likewise not superior. Truly. We're all equals here. But if I have experience or knowledge on a topic and I think it might help to share it, I will. So since I do, and it could, I did.

If I'm wrong, I want to be called on it. Every time. You, and everyone, should feel free to openly disagree with me. That's constructive dialog, and it's good for everybody.

But if my information is right, I'm not going to let any one try to intimidate me/guilt me/shame me out of sharing it when it can help people and spoods.

My entire purpose was to clarify what the actual condition is, what signs and symptoms to look for beyond just only dyskinesia, so that the OP and everyone else who might read this, now and in the future, has the most accurate information available to assess their animals' symptoms and options and so can expedite treatment to increase its success.

@Firestorm3 I do recommend seeing if you can find a good vet. I've outlined my reasons, I wouldn't suggest it if I thought it wouldn't help. I'm giving you the same advice here that I'd give you at work.
Choosing to utilize vet care also helps create demand for invert vet care, which means more vets will do what's necessary to meet the demand, which means better and more widely available health care for our spoods. That benefits everyone.
But if you choose not to take your T to a vet, or can't find a willing vet, and heaven forbid she turns for the worst and you decide to euthanize her, please know that any vet should be able to perform a humane euthanasia. Additionally, if the worst happens and heaven forbid she doesn't make it, please consider a necropsy. Any vet should be able to perform one on a T. Necropsies include running some limited diagnostics, though not as much variety as if she were alive... But still, since information is so limited on DKS, any results could be very helpful for hobbyists. You can request copies of your records and results and post them here, and also consider sending them off to the researchers looking into DKS.

I'm sending all my best juju your way! Hugs!

 

[boina]

but this thread might help other people in your shoes, either now or in the future

Most certainly not.

 

[Feral]

Don't go to the vet - I've yet to see, or hear of, a single vet that did anything useful to a spider. You are just stressing your spider out and in her current condition that can mean certain death.

Edit: To clarify: Animals with neurological symptoms (including humans) don't react well to further stress. In fact, that further stress may very well be the last straw for the neuronal system to completely overreact and that means the spider dies.

It is true that sometimes over-stimulation can increase prevalence/incidence of the symptoms of neurological dysfunction. This doesn't necessarily correlate to a worsening of the condition itself, or mean that a T shouldn't go to the vet. Like, I don't tell chronically/serially seizing animals to stay home just because the vet trip can make them more neuroabn. Honestly, if an animal were so bad off that they are legitimately so close to death, that's even more of a reason to go to the vet. One has to weigh the benfits and risks before deciding what to do. (And minimize stress as much as possible, of course, no matter if decides to go or not, that's a good point.) Often lay people don't have enough knowledge to make an educated decision themselves, and don't have them time to learn because of the immediacy of the illness/condition at hand. I'm telling the OP what a trip to a willing vet might offer, based on my knowledge and experience. Exactly what I would say if they called. Ultimately, the OP doesn't have to listen to either of us- I say it doesn't hurt anything for the OP to call around and, if they find a willing and able vet, ask their opinion on the benefits/risks of bringing her in for treatment. And, if they want, keep on calling different vets and getting opinions on the risk/benefit of bringing in for whatever treatment they can offer. If they do go to a vet, I would suggest they bring both of the links I posted for the vet to read, and any other materials they have on DKS.

 

[boina]

Can we please, please, please take this to PM? Please? Because no one wants to go through or read these arguments in a thread.

You will have to message me, because I can't message you.

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

@Feral If you're trying to help people, start a new thread on DKS! Stop clogging this thread with your crap. Keep your petty arguments to yourself, or like @boina said, PM others. No person wondering about DKS will look into a thread on tarantula movement, but will instead go directly to searching threads with names bout DKS!

 

[Brachyfan]

Everyone should just discount everything that @Feral says. She is more dangerous by far than getting info from youtube or facebook.

OP how is the spider doing?

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I'm out as well, it's just devolved into Gish galloping and appeals to authority and I really can't be bothered. Vets know as much about tarantulas as I know about being neurotypical.

OP, if you can establish a cause then this thread lists the known available treatment options. Do not waste your time with a vet, even if you can find one willing to see you they will almost certainly just charge you a fortune to euthanise the animal.

 

[Firestorm3]

Updated after further 4 hours

She was still heating up in the radiator. I've just came home and i've found her still alive, twitching like before but with all the legs raised up

 

[Brachyfan]

Updated after further 4 hours

She was still heating up in the radiator. I've just came home and i've found her still alive, twitching like before but with all the legs raised up

Praying for your tarantula.

 

[Firestorm3]

I've done what i could and what my Tarantulas knowledge allow me.
Now i've moved her away from the radiator or she will probably cook, and i've set her in the closet over my head, where she could relax and stay away from light.
If tomorrow she is still alive, i'll give updates on her health status and begin the cycle with the radiator again

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

Can you post a pic?

 

[Firestorm3]

Here is the current situation.
She is alive, slightly twitching her legs, but alive

 

[ThemantismanofPA]

that looks really weird

 

[Feral]

Here is the current situation.
She is alive, slightly twitching her legs, but alive

That pic, as heartbreaking as it is to see, is an example of the dystonia I mentioned before, another possible symptom of DKS, for anyone now or in the future who might need a visual reference. It's when the body is in a stiff, frozen, and often contorted position. This, sadly, is what that looks like.

Poor love. We're pulling for you, sweet fuzzbutt!

 

[hunterc]

Been a couple days..hows it doing??

 

[Firestorm3]

She has probably passed through the worse phase yesterday.
Today she is still alive and 'fine'. She is completely freeze and with her legs raised up like a few days ago, but i maybe start to see some improvements. Every time i remove the PVC panel to check out the Tarantulas, i notice her reacting by twitching her legs in the air. She is quite responsive despite the inhability to move.
I hope that this phase last as less as possible, letting me see my tarantula strolling around again.

 

[Firestorm3]

Bad news. She has probably passed away.
I've last checked her 4 hours ago and was still responsive when poking the PVC panel, by raising up her legs.
Now i've just finished my shower and i checked her. I've poked on the PVC panel and no legs lifting.
I then took her enclosure out and still no movements.
Now i've moved her on the water cap as a last hope, but i guess that it's useless