Really worried about weird tarantula movements

[Firestorm3]

Hi all.
I'm very concerned about my P.Metallica behaviour.
Still yesterday it was all normal. She was climbed on the corbark like always and doing her stuff.
But today when i decide to moisture the substrate a bit, i've found her on the ground acting very weirdly. She was like spasming and trying to walk, but with some difficulties as she was like attached with her leg claws.
Once i moistured the enclosure, she was all curled up in a corner and once i poked her with a straw, she began moving and walking weirdly again, stretching her legs like she was having cramps or something. (Here the video https://imgur.com/RGPW7d8)
I then moved her over the water cap, and she starts spreading her fangs forward and inwards with no reason.
I also tried to flip her over, guessing that it was because maybe she was starting to molt, and this is her current situation
https://imgur.com/UyPJBHG
i really hope that is not DKS, but it looks just that.

Should i try with the IKU, or should i keep the tarantula flipped over?

 

[Vanessa]

DKS is not a condition - it is a symptom of what, very often, turns out to be exposure to a chemical contaminant. Do you have any dogs, or cats, in the house being treated with internal and external parasite treatment? Do have have any snakes/reptiles being treated for mites? Are there any pesticides being sprayed outside? Do you live in an apartment where other units could be having extermination done? Are you using a heating mat? Is the tarantula near a heat vent, or a window where they could have been in direct sunlight?
ICU's are not going to help. I don't know if anything can help at this point. Maybe someone else can provide a solution.

 

[Firestorm3]

Yes, i've cat but they don't go outside at all, so, that is to exclude. The cat's are not getting treated with parasite treatments. I don't have reptiles. For the pesticides outside, honestly i don't know, but if it would be there would be all the tarantulas in that situation, and i only have this.
For the heating mat yes, there is one but is on the 'roof' of the furniture and not at direct contact.
For the sunlight, i keep the enclosures room shutter down and keep them lighted with LED.

A small news i can give you is that the tarantula has flipped herself on her legs by it's own

 

[Feral]

Is anyone else (other inverts, feeders, etc.) showing any weird symptoms, including but not limited to dyskinesia? I'd check and watch everyone closely, but def tell us if anyone else is being weird.

If it is a toxin, it may or may not have originated from within your house... You could be the vehicle that transfers a toxin from outside. You could have only one animal symptomatic because the toxin, whatever its origins, was transferred from whoever via your hands or a tool into just one that enclosure. I hope that's the case, and the reason is NOT that there was a wider exposure but this is just the first animal to become sympathetic so far.

In addition to what's been said, have you opened a new bag of substrate? Or if you have a landlord, sometimes they can use pesticides on the property without your knowledge. Or if you have a partner/kids/cleaning staff, sometimes they can use chemicals you may not know about. It doesn't have to be only your own pets, you may have transferred topical pest preventative from other people's pets on your hands and into your home/invert enclosure if you petted other people's animals who were recently treated (like getting fipronil product [which is a biggie] on your skin by saying "hello" to a neighbors' recently treated dog/petting them, etc).

While you're thinking about possible exposure/contaminant, it might be wise to just go ahead and decontaminate/replace whatever you can. If it were me, I would break down the enclosure, flush everything with lots and lots of hot tap water while scrubbing surfaces (enclosure inside and out, water dishes, fake plants, etc.) with a clean disposable towel, and replace the substrate entirely. Just in case there is some toxic contaminant. Don't forget to wash your tools, like forceps and straws and watering bottles, etc.

 

[Firestorm3]

I've just did what you told ^^
I've moved the sick tarantula to a brand new and smaller enclosure with fresh substrate and new water cap.
I'll keep her like that and check everyday to see good updates.
In the meantime i'll clean and sterilize her old enclosure in order to move her back once she got healty.

For the substrate, i'm using the same bags that i've bought a year ago and four months ago i've added some peat to the coconut fiber from the same seller, in order to prevent mold.

All the other tarantulas are good and healty, only waiting for their next meal.

 

[Feral]

DKS is not a condition - it is a symptom of what, very often, turns out to be exposure to a chemical contaminant.

Just as an aside... I'm not sure where you're getting this, but it is wrong. DKS means Dyskinetic Syndrome. And a syndrome, by definition, is a condition characterized by an associated set of symptoms. I think you're mixing up primary and secondary disorders. As far as we know now, it's true that DKS is a secondary disorder, having a number of different possible primary causes. And it's true that in many cases, the primary disorder is toxicity. But it is incorrect and misleading to say that DKS is not a condition in its own right.

 

[Sinned]

Don't have any experience with this, thankfully, but I'm just gonna link @boina 's post, https://arachnoboards.com/threads/treatment-for-dks.306385/

 

[Feral]

Just as an aside... I'm not sure where you're getting this, but it is wrong. DKS means Dyskinetic Syndrome. And a syndrome, by definition, is a condition characterized by an associated set of symptoms. I think you're mixing up primary and secondary disorders. As far as we know now, it's true that DKS is a secondary disorder, having a number of different possible primary causes. And it's true that in many cases, the primary disorder is toxicity. But it is incorrect and misleading to say that DKS is not a condition in its own right.

With what do you disagree, @The Grym Reaper?

 

[The Grym Reaper]

Just as an aside... I'm not sure where you're getting this, but it is wrong. DKS means Dyskinetic Syndrome.

Yes but "DKS" or "Dyskinetic Syndrome" is a misnomer for one specific symptom.

And a syndrome, by definition, is a condition characterized by an associated set of symptoms.

A syndrome is a group of signs and symptoms that occur together and characterize a particular abnormality or condition whereas afflicted spiders only exhibit one symptom, dyskinesia. Dyskinesia refers to both involuntary movements and impaired voluntary movements.

But it is incorrect and misleading to say that DKS is not a condition in its own right.

Nope, dyskinesia is a symptom of an underlying problem, not a condition in its own right.

Dyskinesia in tarantulas

 

[Feral]

Yes but "DKS" or "Dyskinetic Syndrome" is a misnomer for one specific symptom.



A syndrome is a group of signs and symptoms that occur together and characterize a particular abnormality or condition whereas afflicted spiders only exhibit one symptom, dyskinesia. Dyskinesia refers to both involuntary movements and impaired voluntary movements.



Nope, dyskinesia is a symptom of an underlying problem, not a condition in its own right.

Dyskinesia in tarantulas

I think most of your information on DKS is great, and thank you for it! It's just this one point that is incorrect.

DKS is not just one symptom. DKS is a syndrome, which is a condition recognized by a collection of associated symptoms. Your forgetting all DKS's possible symptoms including dyskinesia, dystonia, ataxia, anorexia, lethargy, and death. It is most definitely a syndrome by any medical/veterinary definition. It may have a number of different causes/etiologies. It is true that it is not a disease, nor a primary disorder. I think you might be confusing the meanings of disease, disorder, condition, symptom and syndrome, as well as primary and secondary disorders.

I am basing all of this on the published veterinary studies and literature. And my experience.

It's a syndrome just like Cushing's Syndrome (or Horner's Syndrome or whatever syndrome). Like, sure, Cushing's Syndrome is a secondary disorder and the underlying primary disorder causing Cushing's Syndrome is almost always a tumor... but it's still both a syndrome and a condition. It's just not a disease.

Here is some excellent information, in case you haven't already seen this one.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17415349.2018.1484677?journalCode=tvnj20#_i3

 

[The Grym Reaper]

Your forgetting all DKS's possible symptoms including dyskinesia, dystonia, ataxia, anorexia, lethargy, and death.

As far as I can tell, some of these aren't even possible in tarantulas.

DKS is a syndrome

No it isn't, it's a misnomer and the term basically only exists because Dyskinetic Syndrome sounds more fancy than dyskinesia.

Next you'll be telling me that SADS is actually a legitimate syndrome as well.

Here is some excellent information, in case you haven't already seen this one.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17415349.2018.1484677?journalCode=tvnj20#_i3

Full article hidden behind a £65 paywall and the abstract doesn't tell me anything useful.

 

[boina]

I think most of your information on DKS is great, and thank you for it! It's just this one point that is incorrect.

DKS is not just one symptom. DKS is a syndrome, which is a condition recognized by a collection of associated symptoms. Your forgetting all DKS's possible symptoms including dyskinesia, dystonia, ataxia, anorexia, lethargy, and death. It is most definitely a syndrome by any medical/veterinary definition. It may have a number of different causes/etiologies. It is true that it is not a disease, nor a primary disorder. I think you might be confusing the meanings of disease, disorder, condition, symptom and syndrome, as well as primary and secondary disorders.

I am basing all of this on the published veterinary studies and literature. And my experience.

It's a syndrome just like Cushing's Syndrome (or Horner's Syndrome or whatever syndrome). Like, sure, Cushing's Syndrome is a secondary disorder and the underlying primary disorder causing Cushing's Syndrome is almost always a tumor... but it's still both a syndrome and a condition. It's just not a disease.

Here is some excellent information, in case you haven't already seen this one.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17415349.2018.1484677?journalCode=tvnj20#_i3

DKS is a very badly defined term in tarantulas and it's certainly not a medically recognized syndrome. It's just a descriptive term for a set of symptoms that gets thrown around a lot. Calling it a syndrome or a secondary disorder is not warranted, since no real research has ever been done defining it as a disorder. The paper you linked doesn't sound promising, btw. and only claims to presents hypotheses and I certainly can't see it defining a disorder from case reports and anecdotal evidence. Going back to Cushings: That's a secondary disorder because it describes a defined set of physiological and pathological changes. We have no idea about the physiological and pathological changes that define DKS. DKS symptoms can be compared better to coughing and sneezing which can be the effect of all kinds of conditions.

OP, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility of an infection. In the one case I know of where a tarantula showing DKS has been autopsied and diagnosed by a veterinary pathologist microsporidia (microscopic fungi) have been proven as the cause and signs of toxicity were not seen at all. I would definitely try the heat treatment I described in the linked thread, since it increases the metabolism, which may help clear out toxins and also activate the immune system of the spider against infection, thus helping with the two main causes: toxins and pathogens.

Edit: yes it is a syndrome in the sense that this is a descriptive term for a collection of symptoms. I appologize for not getting the nomenclature right the first time.

 

[Feral]

As far as I can tell, some of these aren't even possible in tarantulas.

I don't understand. How so? And why are you more qualified than a veterinarian or vet tech to make that assertion? I assure you that tarantulas are capable of experiencing those. Also, see last quote below.

No it isn't, it's a misnomer and the term basically only exists because Dyskinetic Syndrome sounds more fancy than dyskinesia.

You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with vets and vet techs and research scientists and working animal professionals who also publish articles in peer-reviewed journals. Although I am qualified to assure you that it meets the criteria for a syndrome, why don't you take their word for it.

Full article hidden behind a £65 paywall and the abstract doesn't tell me anything useful.

Okay, I get that paywalls are the worst. Church. Definitely things I swear at often and loudly! But even just the abstract can give you some good information:
"There have been increasing reports of cases of erratic movements and ataxia followed by death in tarantula species. This paper covers a brief review of what we know about the condition and what to look for in a tarantula patient. This is the first paper on this syndrome and thus hypotheses on causality and treatment options are in their infancy. The paper concludes with a call for more case reports to be published or sent to the attention of the authors such that we can continue to build on the data we already have to seek a better treatment option."

Of particular pertinence is the fact it lists three symptoms "erratic movements" (aka dyskinesia) and ataxia and death right up front. There are other symptoms, but even if there were no other symptoms except those three, three symptoms is good enough for it to be a syndrome.
Also note how it clearly calls DKS both a syndrome and a condition right there in the abstract.

If for some crazy reason that isn't clear enough, here some info that's not behind a paywall. Here is an except from The Journal of the Veterinary Invertebrate Society's article called "Notes on Locomotion Diseases in Theraphosidae Spiders" by Steve Trim BSc (Hons) CBiol MRSB that says:
"In October 2014 a meeting of the VIS and BIAZA TIWG confirmed the use of Dyskinesis Syndrome (shortened to DKS) as the official description for such ataxic movements. The use of the word syndrome signifies the lack of knowledge as all we know about the condition is a collection of clinical signs. In order to understand this syndrome, the VIS are keen to collate any case reports of clinical signs similar to Dyskinesis Syndrome for a review currently underway."
https://veterinaryinvertebratesociety.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/visj-winter-issue.pdf
The "review currently underway" they mentioned was the study I linked earlier. The VIS is the Veterinary Invertebrate Society and the BIAZA TIWG is the British & Irish Association of Zoos & Aquariums' Terrestrial Invertebrate Working Group which only allows members that are professionals working invertebrates.

It goes on to to say:
"The signs associated with DKS are, hunched posture, ataxic movements, anorexia, loss of righting reflex, and death. In vertebrates these symptoms are associated with neurological dysfunction and this is likely in theraphosidae too, however causes of such dysfunction are diverse and include, dehydration, infection, intoxication and neuronal injury."

 

[boina]

@The Grym Reaper - I think feral has me blocked, so you'd need to repeat my arguments to her. Don't fall for the "it has been proven by science" stuff. Feral severely over-interprets the available data.

Actually, she's right in that it is a syndrome, but in it's more lose definition: a set of symptoms that occur together. It's not a syndrome in the way that it represents a secondary disorder. It gets a bit confusing because the term syndrome gets used in a very wide way (and I got confused, too). Actually the stuff she cites directly contradicts her secondary disorder statement: that's something completely different and has nothing really to do with this discussion. DKS is a "collection of clinical signs" and a "description for ataxic movements", i.e. a descriptive term. I feel we are splitting hairs here and it gets to be about the right words only. The veterinary society confirmed the name DKS and nothing more.

According to the citation above presented by Feral DKS is a collection of symptoms and not a defined disorder, secondary or otherwise, in any way.

Edit: a "condition" is a broad term that includes everything and means nothing.

 

[Firestorm3]

By the way, this morning i found the P.Metallica still alive but very weak, making only some leg twitches and moving her fangs.
I then moved her to the bathroom where there is a radiator to heat up the room. I place the enclosure on top, with water into the water cap.
After four hours she is in the same condition. Hope that the heat will help her

 

[boina]

By the way, this morning i found the P.Metallica still alive but very weak, making only some leg twitches and moving her fangs.
I then moved her to the bathroom where there is a radiator to heat up the room. I place the enclosure on top, with water into the water cap.
After four hours she is in the same condition. Hope that the heat will help her

If it progresses that fast there's basically nothing you can do. Even the heat is only meant to help the body heal itself but it's not really a cure. There's nothing you can do but hope.

 

[Firestorm3]

A little good news.
Another hour and a half has passed and now she is with a raised leg and with the others twitching a bit.
I don't know if is it good or not, but at least she seems more alive than before

 

[Swagg]

Good luck @Firestorm3, hope your T pulls through.

 

[Feral]

DKS is a very badly defined term in tarantulas and it's certainly not a medically recognized syndrome. It's just a descriptive term for a set of symptoms that gets thrown around a lot. Calling it a syndrome or a secondary disorder is not warranted, since no real research has ever been done defining it as a syndrome. The paper you linked doesn't sound promising, btw. and only claims to presents hypotheses and I certainly can't see it defining a syndrome from case reports and anecdotal evidence.
Going back to Cushings: That's a syndrome because it describes a defined set of physiological and pathological changes. We have no idea about the physiological and pathological changes that define DKS. DKS symptoms can be compared better to coughing and sneezing which can be the effect of all kinds of conditions.

What? No, Dyskinesia in tarantulas isn't "better compared to coughing and sneezing" in humans... If you have to make a comparison to humans, then Dyskinesia is tarantulas is better compared to dyskinesia in humans.
Which, by the way, also presents very similarly, has similar symptoms, and also has a number of possible causes. It's a much more accurate comparison.
I... yeahno.

It is a medically recognized syndrome. See the link I posted above, the one where veterinarians, professors, doctors, arachnid-oriented lab scientists, vet techs, veterinary pathologists and others got together and basically said 'this is DKS, this is its name, and it's a syndrome'. Or see the direct quote below.

It doesn't need to be thoroughly researched and understood entirely to be a thing, and the causes don't need to be understood to be a thing. Like, Horner's Syndrome in dogs is most often idiopathic (i.e. no discernible cause) but it's still Horner's Syndrome when it has the right symptoms, identifiable cause or not.
Cushing's is a syndrome not because it "defines a set of physiological and pathological changes" or qualifies as a syndrome because we understand how it works; That has nothing to do with the medical definition of a syndrome. A syndrome is nothing more than a set of however many symptoms which often coincide and together can (but don't have to) indicate one or more possible underlying causes which is recognized as such by the majority of the medical community.

But really, when it comes down to it, our opinions don't matter. Veterinarians, techs, professors, veterinary pathologists, arachnid-oriented lab scientists and others who have pertinent education and work professionally with inverts say it's a thing. Did you look at the short bios of the people involved in that decision? They are plenty qualified to call it a syndrome. You have no ground to argue with them.

@The Grym Reaper - I think feral has me blocked, so you'd need to repeat my arguments to her. Don't fall for the "it has been proven by science" stuff. Feral severely over-interprets the available data.

Actually, she's right in that it is a syndrome, but in it's more lose definition: a set of symptoms that occur together. It's not a syndrome in the way that it represents a secondary disorder. It gets a bit confusing because the term syndrome gets used in a very wide way (and I got confused, too). Actually the stuff she cites directly contradicts her secondary disorder statement: that's something completely different and has nothing really to do with this discussion. DKS is a "collection of clinical signs" and a "description for ataxic movements", i.e. a descriptive term. I feel we are splitting hairs here and it gets to be about the right words only. The veterinary society confirmed the name DKS and nothing more.

According to the citation above presented by Feral DKS is a collection of symptoms and not a defined disorder, secondary or otherwise, in any way.

Edit: a "condition" is a broad term that includes everything and means nothing.

Of course I don't have you blocked. Why would I do that?

I crazy checked myself and looked up the words I used in the ol' Merriam-Webster MEDICAL Dictionary, just to be sure.

Syndrome: "a group of signs and symptoms that occur together and characterize a particular abnormality"

Condition: "(2a) a usually defective state of health"

Disorder: "an abnormal physical or mental condition : ailment"

Secondary: "(1)not first in order of occurrence or development: (2) dependent or consequent on another disease or condition"

Primary: "1a(1) first in order of time or development: b(1) arising spontaneously : idiopathic"

I think part of the problem is that you're confusing disorder and disease, and they are entirely different (but sometimes overlapping) things. As I've said, as far as we know DKS is not a disease.
So yes, I'm very familiar with the correct usage of the words, and I used the words correctly according to a MEDICAL dictionary.

...

And again, the Veterinary Invertebrate Society and the British & Irish Association of Zoos & Aquaiums' Terrestrial Invertebrate Working Group got together and said:
"In October 2014 a meeting of the VIS and BIAZA TIWG confirmed the use of Dyskinesis Syndrome (shortened to DKS) as the official description for such ataxic movements. The use of the word syndrome signifies the lack of knowledge as all we know about the condition is a collection of clinical signs."
... which is the definition of the word "syndrome", and they outright say it is a syndrome. Read it again. And then maybe reread the definitions above, if needed.

And they continue:
".. . causes of such dysfunction are diverse and include, dehydration, infection, intoxication and neuronal injury. Many of these could indeed be causative agents for DKS and it is very likely that further investigation will reveal slightly different pathologies arising from different causes."
which is saying that the syndrome is a secondary condition and the primary cause(s) is(are) as of yet undetermined.

QUOTE="boina, post: 3015245, member: 108127"]@The Grym Reaper Don't fall for the "it has been proven by science" stuff. Feral severely over-interprets the available data. [/QUOTE]

This is untrue, and it is plain to see. But people do sometimes do that, unintentionally or intentionally, and that is why I always encourage everyone to read the material for themselves. That's why I posted the links.

This is not a case of splitting hairs. This is not opinion. This is a matter of fact that has been decided by people who are way more qualified than you or me or anyone here. It was stated previously that it wasn't a syndrome, it was just a single symptom. This is false and I've proven this to be false, people can read the materials for themselves. And it's important to establish the truth because it could be detrimental for anyone to think this condition only has one symptom, as it was previously said above to be. There are the possible signs and symptoms I've noted, and there are other possible signs and symptoms beyond that that are mentioned within the study. For instance, that study mentions excessive grooming, especially of feet, as a possible first symptom among other things. But if people don't know how to recognize the possible features of DKS, or are just looking for only the one dyskinetic symptom, they can't recognize the problem promptly and begin any needed measures in a timely way in order to increase chances of successful recovery.

 

[Feral]

@Firestorm3 , if you have vet nearby that has some tarantula experience, or you live near a college of veterinary medicine, you could consider seeing if any vet there will treat your poor spood. I mentioned this because there are many things a vet could possibly do, including running blood work, fecal smears, cytologies, C&S, administering intracoelomic fluids and/or assisted feedings, and/or various medications depending on the results of the diagnostics. That one article i linked from the VIS journal in particular mentions some success in three cases with an electrolyte solution (sounds like something similar to 0.9% NaCl but they call "Salt Saver" so there's gotta be some trick to it) to rebalance lytes and thereby aid in proper neural signal transmission. Unfortunately I don't think it's something I'd recommend for anyone at home, because of proper preparation and need for monitoring lytes while in use. But maybe it's something a vet would recommend, possibly among other things, if you can find one that will see you. And your contribution from diagnostic findings and treatment response will help aid in furthering the understanding and treatment of DKS.