Pulchra having odd problems

[boina]

I understand my explanations are a bit odd. He started out on his back, body bowed, and when I watched him without moving enclosure, he stayed to do the writhing around biting at the substrate, etc. That's the whole reason I flipped him, because his movement was so out of the norm. It was when I flipped him that I saw that he was drawing his legs over his face, his fangs have been spread some on his back. All of the things apply, it is just a matter of when I noticed them happening. :/ I would have left him if I hadn't noticed him bowed and moving in such a bizarre way. Ten-twelve hours IS a long time for him to be on his back, but if he was moving normally I WOULD have left him. None of my other tarantulas are acting out of the norm, just like with him. This all just popped up out of nowhere. None of his exuvia seems loose, or like it can be popped or taken off in any way.

He doesn't look like he has traditional DKS, but I assumed maybe it would present itself differently in some specimen. I am just so unsure. And terrified. I would be down to help him in literally any way that I can. I have glycerine from the last "surgery" I did, as well as an exacto knife. I just don't know how to proceed, or what the likely cause of his behavior is. I feel utterly useless and it is infuriating.

There isn't such a thing as "traditional" DKS. DKS is just a term used losely for a spider that has obvious neurological problems and is moving uncoordinated. Since it can be caused by many different things it may look different in different individuals and different according to the underlying course. Poisoning is only thing that we know of that may cause DKS. Another thing seems to be dehydration. There are a lot of people (like you) that swear their tarantula has never been in contact with anything poisenous and it still develops DKS. Sometimes it seems to be genetic - i.e. various slings from the same sac show symptoms, even if kept by different keepers. I think there may be some tarantula diseases we don't know anything about yet and some of them may be the reason for some cases of DKS.

I don't know if this is a form of "DKS" or not, but not all "DKS" is exactly the same.

 

[Izzyloo3]

To me it looks similiar, but differrent than dks symptons...which tend to result in much faster and more frantic movement.

What caused this will almost certainly never be known. you couldnt possibly lay blame on the previous owner.

Unless maybe you have kids that could have sprayed something i couldnt even to begin to speculate on its cause.

I will say that because of a neighbor whos absolutely in love with pesticides, ive dealt with dks symptoms many times....its usually a 50/50 proposition when it comes to survival. i would never freeze one and just give up.

If they get through a molt, they generally survive...unfortunately theres nothing than can be done aside from leaving it alone and waiting.....only time will tell.

The only reason I bring up the breeder is because of worry for the sack mate. I need to read up more on dks and all, but I was curious about heredity, and such. I don't know. I am just lost. I don't have kids, only a boyfriend who is also exceptionally careful. I really want to wait it out, but I don't want him to suffer.

 

[Izzyloo3]

There isn't such a thing as "traditional" DKS. DKS is just a term used losely for a spider that has obvious neurological problems and is moving uncoordinated. Since it can be caused by many different things it may look different in different individuals and different according to the underlying course. Poisoning is only thing that we know of that may cause DKS. Another thing seems to be dehydration. There are a lot of people (like you) that swear their tarantula has never been in contact with anything poisenous and it still develops DKS. Sometimes it seems to be genetic - i.e. various slings from the same sac show symptoms, even if kept by different keepers. I think there may be some tarantula diseases we don't know anything about yet and some of them may be the reason for some cases of DKS.

I don't know if this is a form of "DKS" or not, but not all "DKS" is exactly the same.

I really hope there is more done for inverts in the veterinary field. I am a veterinary technician, and it is so frustrating to not have more options, education or answers.

 

[mconnachan]

Yes, I know he is gigantic. I don't overfeed, and have been a tad worried about him being this large, myself. I chocked it up to extreme pre molt. There is nothing bear his rectum, and he defecates normally. On the wall. that is a good idea, though. I will go check on him in a moment.

Now for a t that doesn't like moisture, an ICU is a bad place for it...it could actually kill it....the shower idea isn't much better....a hot shower may sound logical...but its not the right move.

It doesn't look like a fall could be the issue, it doesn't sound like poisoning of any sorts is the answer either.

Not ts to often molt the day after eating, its uncommon, but not unheard of and not a cause for concern in its self.

That said, if it is a molt issue (and we won't likely ever be able to tell from pics on the net), then there really isn't much that can be done. Had the t begun molting, you would have opportunity to surgically remove the molt....but that's only an option for one stuck in the process....ones that get stuck before they start really have no hope.....a while back I lost my prized T. cyaneolum to this...it sucked.


Only time will tell. Good luck with the others.

I had A B. Smithi eat the morning of it's evening moult, no bald spots so it was hard to tell he was in pre - moult..........

 

[mconnachan]

The only reason I bring up the breeder is because of worry for the sack mate. I need to read up more on dks and all, but I was curious about heredity, and such. I don't know. I am just lost. I don't have kids, only a boyfriend who is also exceptionally careful. I really want to wait it out, but I don't want him to suffer.

I was just looking at T's with DKS, not a nice thing to see, by your description of him spasming it does sound like the jerkiness of DKS, I also think the abdomen looks huge almost as though he'd been power fed, I'm wondering if it's a problem with his bowel, OP have you noticed if he was deficating properly, as soon as I heard the 1st comment regarding his anus etc that's what came mind, it's been a combination of both and this is the result, I'm really sorry you had to see your T in such distress, hope he makes it pal..........

 

[Izzyloo3]

I was just looking at T's with DKS, not a nice thing to see, by your description of him spasming it does sound like the jerkiness of DKS, I also think the abdomen looks huge almost as though he'd been power fed, I'm wondering if it's a problem with his bowel, OP have you noticed if he was deficating properly, as soon as I heard the 1st comment regarding his anus etc that's what came mind, it's been a combination of both and this is the result, I'm really sorry you had to see your T in such distress, hope he makes it pal..........

I'm actually pretty against power feeding. I had been feeding him twice a week, or so, regularly until I noticed him turning brown, and then I cut back the feeding to every other week, and then even farther out. He refused food once, then I waited three weeks to feed, and then fed him and then here we are. He has been pooping regularly on the wall of his enclosure. I kind of keep track of the little white spots. I have not noticed any build up of fecal matter on his rectum or spinnerettes. His abdomen got oblong months ago, which I chocked up to his pre molt. :/

 

[cold blood]

The only reason I bring up the breeder is because of worry for the sack mate. I need to read up more on dks and all, but I was curious about heredity, and such. I don't know.

Don't read up on DKS, its more confusion than anything, you already know the movements associated with it and that's basically all you need to really know.

I highly doubt its hereditary, or we would see sacs suffering from it...we don't. That said, like mentioned, there are many reasons for this cause, and we certainly do not know what all the causes are, just the obvious ones.

 

[cold blood]

I had been feeding him twice a week,

2-4 crickets per month would be a good schedule. Twice a week is a lot for a slow growing juvie...great for fast growing slings though.....your schedule would not be the cause of this...it had nothing to do with feeding unless it was a tainted bug it ate somehow. All a heavy feeding schedule will do is prolong pre-molt fasting periods.

 

[mconnachan]

2-4 crickets per month would be a good schedule. Twice a week is a lot for a slow growing juvie...great for fast growing slings though.....your schedule would not be the cause of this...it had nothing to do with feeding unless it was a tainted bug it ate somehow. All a heavy feeding schedule will do is prolong pre-molt fasting periods.

I would agree - 2-4 crickets or roaches a month is plenty for a wee fella like him.........

 

[Venom1080]

@Ellenantula have you ever had a spider with DKS?

 

[Ellenantula]

@Ellenantula have you ever had a spider with DKS?

Never! Like most keepers I had heard of dks and read various threads and seen videos of the syndrome. Like OP, I have always hoped to keep my home natural and chemical free to prevent such (not just for T safety, but for myself and all my pets).
But I was so taken with this thread, I just had to research dks symptoms again and watch more video examples of the syndrome. Some videos seemed to obviously depict dks symptoms: spastic, uncontrolled movements, falling over clumsily when walking, jerkiness, erratic movements, etc. Yannoe, the kind of movement and behaviour most articles refer to.

Of course, I have also never had an impacted T nor dehydrated T either to know how that affected T movement either.

But watching some of the dks videos really made me wonder if some examples were truly showing dks or Ts with other issues like being pre-moult, impacted, injured, dehydrated, etc.. Some "dks" videos really just showed sluggish leg movements or slow but seemingly controlled walking gaits. And a few "dks" videos, to be honest, just looked like normal T walking & normal T behaviour.

I really wanted to compare and contrast moulting movements to those of dks.

I admit, most of the moults I have personally witnessed, was really just me watching the exo from above. The exo can really hide the T itself underneath pulling itself free. It was fascinating to see time lapse videos of how a T works itself out of an exo. (Yes, I'd seen many time-lapse moult videos before, but never from the approach of observing actual T movement to complete the moult). It was interesting to compare the leg and body movements of the Ts in these two contexts.

OP may never really know what happened to their T. Which is always so frustrating.

I hope to never have a T with dks, impaction nor dehydration issues. Sad.

 

[Venom1080]

Never! Like most keepers I had heard of dks and read various threads and seen videos of the syndrome. Like OP, I have always hoped to keep my home natural and chemical free to prevent such (not just for T safety, but for myself and all my pets).
But I was so taken with this thread, I just had to research dks symptoms again and watch more video examples of the syndrome. Some videos seemed to obviously depict dks symptoms: spastic, uncontrolled movements, falling over clumsily when walking, jerkiness, erratic movements, etc. Yannoe, the kind of movement and behaviour most articles refer to.

Of course, I have also never had an impacted T nor dehydrated T either to know how that affected T movement either.

But watching some of the dks videos really made me wonder if some examples were truly showing dks or Ts with other issues like being pre-moult, impacted, injured, dehydrated, etc.. Some "dks" videos really just showed sluggish leg movements or slow but seemingly controlled walking gaits. And a few "dks" videos, to be honest, just looked like normal T walking & normal T behaviour.

I really wanted to compare and contrast moulting movements to those of dks.

I admit, most of the moults I have personally witnessed, was really just me watching the exo from above. The exo can really hide the T itself underneath pulling itself free. It was fascinating to see time lapse videos of how a T works itself out of an exo. (Yes, I'd seen many time-lapse moult videos before, but never from the approach of observing actual T movement to complete the moult). It was interesting to compare the leg and body movements of the Ts in these two contexts.

OP may never really know what happened to their T. Which is always so frustrating.

I hope to never have a T with dks, impaction nor dehydration issues. Sad.

well, thats good to hear.
ive had two with DKS, one with what was probably impaction. they were very jerky and seemingly had seizures when they tried to move. never had one that couldnt coordinate its movements at all however.

the one that was impacted (probably) just sat by its dish until it died. very sluggish.

 

[Ellenantula]

well, thats good to hear.
ive had two with DKS, one with what was probably impaction. they were very jerky and seemingly had seizures when they tried to move. never had one that couldnt coordinate its movements at all however.

the one that was impacted (probably) just sat by its dish until it died. very sluggish.

I'm sorry you've had to witness impaction & dks -- the videos were upsetting enough - much less to witness in person. Sorry you lost your T.
I can only imagine how frustrating those incidents were for you (and for OP now). We try to provide our best husbandry possible, and when something goes wrong... well, just so sad.

(And I hope I haven't sounded 'cold' -- I'm a student at heart and sometimes get too involved when studying something -- but I am always empathetic and sympathetic that these are real things that happen, not just case studies).

 

[Izzyloo3]

Thanks all for the information, and the sympathy/empathy. As far as feeding goes, it is honestly so sporadic, and I only kind of keep track of feeding. I have Toby slings I feed twice or more weekly, and then my juvies that are once a week or longer, depending on how large or small a big they get, and then my aphonopelma who eats basically never.... Haha. Update as of this evening: he has moved to the middle of his enclosure (probably by spasming) and is lying kind of flat. He looked more normal than he did yesterday. I took off his lid to peek at him and he did his little scrunching motion, but not the full out craziness that was yesterday. So... that's either much better, or much worse. -sigh-. But I won't give up until he's gone.

 

[Izzyloo3]

Do you guys think it would be advisable top five him some water if/when he flips onto his back again? Just a little droplet on his mouth parts, nothing major.

 

[Izzyloo3]

Do you guys think it would be advisable top five him some water if/when he flips onto his back again? Just a little droplet on his mouth parts, nothing major.

 

[cold blood]

Do you guys think it would be advisable top five him some water if/when he flips onto his back again? Just a little droplet on his mouth parts, nothing major.

Not a bad idea at all. Just a drop at the base of the fangs.

 

[mconnachan]

@cold blood, what does impacted mean, I've never heard of this, obviously it's something I need to know about, if you could help explain I would be extremely appreciative..........

 

[ledzeppelin]

@cold blood, what does impacted mean, I've never heard of this, obviously it's something I need to know about, if you could help explain I would be extremely appreciative..........

it means constipated to the point it cannot poop at all due to a blockage and whatnot.

 

[mconnachan]

it means constipated to the point it cannot poop at all due to a blockage and whatnot.

I suspected that was what it was but clarification was needed, thanks @ledzeppelin