Premolt, DKS, something else?? Please help :(

[jkelly]

Hi all,

I'm a newbie and have a beautiful female juvenile Avic metallica. I got her from Jamie's and when she first arrived, she happily walked up a branch, drank for a good while from her water dish, pooped, and perched herself on the wall of her acrylic, vertical enclosure (also from Jamie). Yes she has proper ventilation, plenty of fake plants, and I haven't overdone the humidity. I've had her about 2 months now. She's only eaten once since I got her when I resorted to tong-feeding, but she's always seemed chill and content (althought she hasn't webbed at all yet). The last 2 times I tried feeding her she totally freaked and ran away so I haven't tried since. Now, for the past week or so she appears to have trouble walking, getting her footing, and moves very spastically. I know DKS is rare, so I'm really hoping she's in premolt? Regardless, it breaks my heart to see her this way Her color has also faded and the "toes" on her front legs and pedipalps appear swollen.

Since she is restless and looks awful when she tries to move, I've put her in a much smaller enclosure with good ventilation, a wet paper towel to suck on, a water dish, and an area of totally dry substrate. Is that okay? Should I offer pre-killed prey? Anything else I can do?

Please help! I know you want pics but I'm at work until late tonight...I know, I know

 

[lalberts9310]

Yes, please provide pics of the T when you get home, I think it's pre-molt, not taking food for a week is normal when in pre-molt, also when you get home put her back in her original enclosure, moving them to an ICU can do more harm than good, also keep the substrate in her enclosure dry, a water bowl will provide enough humidity it needs, you can occasionally sprinkle some water droplets on the substrate.. as long as the Ts abdomen is plump (bigger than the carapace) I think it'll be fine, T's in pre-molt will act sluggish refuse food (sometimes for months before molting) will get darker and more dull in colouration, and will have less grip on smooth surfaces such as glass and plexi.. but again, a picture will help confirm, as long as it's legs isn't curled under it, also don't disturb it, put it back in it's enclosure and leave it be..

And another thing, DKS doesn't exist

 

[jkelly]

Thank you! I forgot to mention her abdomen looks quite small to me, but it's hard to tell with so much fuzziness all over it. I will post pics as soon as I can tonight.

It surprises me that if not being able to climb much at all and having such spastic, stressed movements can be part of premolt that there is not more discussion of it in books and on boards? It's awful to watch and why I thought she needs an ICU. I'm afraid she will fall in her original enclosure.

 

[lalberts9310]

I don't know about the spastic stressed movements, that can be a whole different story, they just get sluggish with pre-molt (don't move much), best is to provide a picture.. also, a picture of the enclosure might help as well.. also, keep sharp objects away from the sides

 

[awiec]

DKS is not a disease itself, it's just a term for the variety of symptoms that come with a spider being poisoned usually. Fading in color is a normal thing with a spider being far into the molt cycle aka "pre-molt" and they sometimes move a little weird due to their muscles attaching to their new skin. A video and picture is the most helpful as what someone would call "spastic" others would call sluggish movement. I know for aboreals pre-molt is much more apparent as they have troubles climbing and will literally slide off surfaces. As for falling, aboreals are pretty light and are kinda designed to handle some free falling as they will jump from trees if threatened. Now I wouldn't encourage handling them but a small drop in their cage shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[jkelly]

DKS is not a disease itself, it's just a term for the variety of symptoms that come with a spider being poisoned usually. Fading in color is a normal thing with a spider being far into the molt cycle aka "pre-molt" and they sometimes move a little weird due to their muscles attaching to their new skin. A video and picture is the most helpful as what someone would call "spastic" others would call sluggish movement. I know for aboreals pre-molt is much more apparent as they have troubles climbing and will literally slide off surfaces. As for falling, aboreals are pretty light and are kinda designed to handle some free falling as they will jump from trees if threatened. Now I wouldn't encourage handling them but a small drop in their cage shouldn't be a big deal.

Thank you. I'll try to get a video tonight also. Pics might not help much because she covers her carapace by scrunching up her legs every time I check on her lately. Also, the outer edges of her carapace look dry and whitish.

 

[lalberts9310]

I agree with awiec, a video would be much better than a picture, so we can actually see how the T moves..

 

[jkelly]

I agree with awiec, a video would be much better than a picture, so we can actually see how the T moves..

Okay will do. I hate to move her again, but I'll video right after I put her back in her original enclosure.

---------- Post added 06-01-2015 at 01:11 PM ----------

In the meantime, has anyone experienced anything like this at all? I can only find two posts anywhere that say anything about being spastic premolt...but luckily those Ts were fine after molt. The movement is definitely not sluggish--I'm a word lover and spastic is unfortunately the best descriptor I can come up with.

 

[awiec]

Okay will do. I hate to move her again, but I'll video right after I put her back in her original enclosure.

---------- Post added 06-01-2015 at 01:11 PM ----------

In the meantime, has anyone experienced anything like this at all? I can only find two posts anywhere that say anything about being spastic premolt...but luckily those Ts were fine after molt. The movement is definitely not sluggish--I'm a word lover and spastic is unfortunately the best descriptor I can come up with.

All you can do is wait and see, hopefully a molt will clear it up.

 

[jkelly]

[video=youtube;R98GTUjbdNs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R98GTUjbdNs&feature=youtu.be[/video]

not sure if this is helpful at all but it's the best I could do...my darn camera won't let me zoom in any further either

Okay, so before this causes an uproar:

• this is her semi-ICU that I placed her in this morning, since in her much taller enclosure she was so restless and kept trying to spastically climb from the bottom and falling and it was awful to see
• the water dish was brimming and pristine when I left this morning; the paper towel was freshly wet and clean
• it's a small kritter keeper so the lid is totally vented on the top and all around the sides at the top
• when i started filming, she raised that single leg straight up in the air (never done that before)
• as with all my pets, she would not do what I wanted her to do (move spastically) while I'm recording, so all you see is her telling me in no uncertain terms LEAVE ME ALONE
• I definitely don't feel I should move her back to her enclosure at this point
• I do not make a habit of poking my Ts and I will not lightly nudge her with that brush anymore
• Again, any advice, tales of similar experiences, anything at all is greatly appreciated.

 

[cold blood]

I'd put it into its normal enclosure....that "icu" concerns me. Really the only thing its gonna help is dehydration, which doesn't appear to be an issue.

I saw no abnormal movements, like you said, just a t that wants alone time.

Can you post a pic of its normal enclosure, I suspect something may be a bit off. I've seen those enclosures and the issues people have with avics in them....I personally believe them to be under-ventilated, or at least not ventilated quite right as they tend to have a vent on the top and only one on a side if I recall correctly. A 32oz deli cup is probably a better choice all around.

When in doubt, always offer pre-killed prey.

 

[jkelly]

I'd put it into its normal enclosure....that "icu" concerns me. Really the only thing its gonna help is dehydration, which doesn't appear to be an issue.

I saw no abnormal movements, like you said, just a t that wants alone time.

Can you post a pic of its normal enclosure, I suspect something may be a bit off. I've seen those enclosures and the issues people have with avics in them....I personally believe them to be under-ventilated, or at least not ventilated quite right as they tend to have a vent on the top and only one on a side if I recall correctly. A 32oz deli cup is probably a better choice all around.

When in doubt, always offer pre-killed prey.

The vents are in two sets--one upper and one lower--on either side (none on the top).

Should I move her back there or to a 32oz deli cup (which I have on hand)? What should I put in the deli cup? You'll just have to trust me the abnormal movements are disturbing to watch.

And once I get her somewhere to stay, I will offer pre-killed prey. Oh and the cardboard tube is lined with silk leaves and never gets moist enough to mold anyway (she has never used it or webbed anything). She's always seemed very happy to hang out on the sides and liked to groom herself at the same time each day. Was beautiful to watch.

Thanks so much!

Joyce

 

[lalberts9310]

Well her abdomen is kinda small, like suggested, try offering pre-killed prey, her normal enclosure looks fine IMO, but if you want to move her into a deli cup, make sure the sides are ventilated enough (don't ventilate the top), add a water bowl, dry sub, and some fake leaves.. looking at the video, I don't see any odd movements like twitching or spastic movements, besides for the rear leg she lifted up like that.. I don't know what can possibly be wrong with that T.. was there any fumes present? Any chance she could have gotten in contact with chemicals, pesticides etc? (contaminated feeders?), do you rinse your hands thoroughly before handling feeders?

Edit: okay wait, looked at the vid a second time and if I'm not mistaking, the hind leg she lifted like that did twitch a little? Is she twitching her legs?

 

[cold blood]

View attachment 137052

The vents are in two sets--one upper and one lower--on either side (none on the top).

Should I move her back there or to a 32oz deli cup (which I have on hand)? What should I put in the deli cup? You'll just have to trust me the abnormal movements are disturbing to watch.

And once I get her somewhere to stay, I will offer pre-killed prey. Oh and the cardboard tube is lined with silk leaves and never gets moist enough to mold anyway (she has never used it or webbed anything). She's always seemed very happy to hang out on the sides and liked to groom herself at the same time each day.

Get rid of that tube. It only needs it because the piece of wood isn't conducive to an easy hide. A flat piece of wood, leaned against the side, surrounded by the foliage would be an easy upgrade to quickly do while the t isn't "home". You could still leave the current piece in for aesthetics, but with the tp roll prominently displayed, maybe aesthetics aren't a concern:wink: A flat piece of wood would also give it a more secure place to hang out just above the ground, which is how they like to hunt.

That's totally different than the enclosure I was picturing, ventilation looks proper to me. I don't see a reason not to move her back in.

 

[jkelly]

Well her abdomen is kinda small, like suggested, try offering pre-killed prey, her normal enclosure looks fine IMO, but if you want to move her into a deli cup, make sure the sides are ventilated enough (don't ventilate the top), add a water bowl, dry sub, and some fake leaves.. looking at the video, I don't see any odd movements like twitching or spastic movements, besides for the rear leg she lifted up like that.. I don't know what can possibly be wrong with that T.. was there any fumes present? Any chance she could have gotten in contact with chemicals, pesticides etc? (contaminated feeders?), do you rinse your hands thoroughly before handling feeders?

Edit: okay wait, looked at the vid a second time and if I'm not mistaking, the hind leg she lifted like that did twitch a little? Is she twitching her legs?

So I went to see if she's twitching at all and she looks more normal now than she has in awhile (except for not climbing). Her odd movements have always been either OFF or ON. If she's still she's totally still, if she's moving she looks like she's being attacked by bees or like a dog trying to walk in boots for the first time, or both. So now she is still and there is absolutely no twitching.

Edit: And I'm utterly confused too about what could be wrong because I try to always remember to wash my hands before handling feeders, all my Ts eat from the same dubia colony and everyone else is fine, and I feed the male at the same time I've (or tried to) feed her, plus he has almost the exact same setup, and his enclosure sits right next to hers. So anything she was exposed to he almost certainly was also.

 

[cold blood]

Some t's just don't like roaches...they're far from the perfect feeder for this reason. Have you tried other feeders? Crickets, waxworms, mealworms, moths from waxworms (those would be a big hit, I guarantee it).

 

[jkelly]

So the word "flutter" (duh) finally came to mind and I immediately found this threadhttp://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?253915-Strange-tarantula-behavior&

The movement in the video is exactly what she does, and she is unable to move on her own without making those movements (however when she tries to move on her own sometimes it looks more like high stepping and/or constantly losing her footing instead of fluttering).

Please let me know if this changes your advice.

Thank you thank you

Joyce

 

[cold blood]

Yeah, that movement is quite worrisome indeed,

 

[jkelly]

Some t's just don't like roaches...they're far from the perfect feeder for this reason. Have you tried other feeders? Crickets, waxworms, mealworms, moths from waxworms (those would be a big hit, I guarantee it).

I guess I've been lucky because so far all my Ts seem to LOVE dubias and the male A metallica can't get enough...I attached a small shallow lid with hot glue right near the top of his cage to see if he would take prey from it and he immediately did and then immediately webbed and began using the cardboard hide next door and now is constantly in hunting position with feet out of the hide or sitting atop the "dinner plate"! So awesome.

But no I haven't tried anything else, and since I'm not afraid to ask dumb questions...how would I get waxworm moths in a jiffy?

 

[cold blood]

I guess I've been lucky because so far all my Ts seem to LOVE dubias and the male A metallica can't get enough...I attached a small shallow lid with hot glue right near the top of his cage to see if he would take prey from it and he immediately did and then immediately webbed and began using the cardboard hide next door and now is constantly in hunting position with feet out of the hide or sitting atop the "dinner plate"! So awesome.

But no I haven't tried anything else, and since I'm not afraid to ask dumb questions...how would I get waxworm moths in a jiffy?

Ya don't...you'll have to buy waxies and wait for them to morph...2-4weeks....i got one about to emerge in the next few days, my t's love the waxies so much that I rarely have any around lung enough to pupate. Waxies are easy to place, move enough to draw interest, even if they are a distance away, take hours to burrow and worse case scenario, it emerges a moth and gets tagged. They are also a nice fatty meal, which may be what this t needs. Mealworms are even better as you can crush their heads and place them. They move enough to draw a t, won't burrow or move with a crushed bean and stay alive for as much as a week, maybe more, so they stay fresh.