Pandinus imperator and dictators on the market

[Daniel Edwards]

Multiple companies have Pandinus sp. now, even retail Petco. Underground Reptiles has them labeled as field collected "Dictator", while LLL Reptile is selling them as "Emperors" labeled dictator that are clearly imperator. So... ARE they being legally field collected in West Africa again? Anyone know?

 

[ArachnoDrew]

it appears some importing has re opened

 

[Galapoheros]

I think imperators will always be easier to get than dictators. Two years before the export ban went into effect, an importer I don't know very well told me the plan for Africa was to sell farmed imperators and allow much more strict regulated collecting now and then. But if I understand correctly dictators are much less accessible in Africa. I think their range is much smaller and come from a rather dangerous area people generally stay away from. They may currently be restricted from collecting in every way, I haven't looked into it but I'm curious about it. So if a store claims they have dictators for sale, I'd be very skeptical and would say I needed to see a picture, if they didn't supply a picture, I would buy it unless I'd also be OK with an imperator.

 

[ArachnoDrew]

Recently my local reptile shop has a bunch of dictators. Along with pinchers and pokies... they're 100% circulating right now

 

[ArachnoDrew]

A bunch at the expo as well

 

[Galapoheros]

A bunch at the expo as well

I've seen the claim way too many times so far and from people that are reputable, "they know their stuff", "been into it for years" and claim they have dictators but they don't. I'd have to see pictures or see them with my own eyes.

 

[Mila]

wouldnt be the first time someone sold immature H.sp as imps.

 

[FrDoc]

Coming from someone just starting to investigate scorpions. There seems to be a "cool factor" associated with Emporers. Enlighten me, What's the deal?

 

[RTTB]

Emperors once upon a time(decades ago) were quite common. $5-$10 apiece. Overcollecting decimated the populations and they were put on a restricted/banned list. Prices shot up to over $100 apiece. Somewhere in the timeline, Dictators became en vogue as a "alternative" and those on the know knew along there are many Pandinus species. Supply and demand made Emperor prices shoot up and captive breeding has always been needed and babies were fetching a good price.
It appears now that Emperors have returned in some volume and I hear of PetCo having them.
Seems like this happened to H troglodytes and H paudicens but don't know if their numbers in the market have grown. That's my rough interpretation of it and I'll let the experts fill in the gaps.

 

[Prophet]

Emperors once upon a time(decades ago) were quite common. $5-$10 apiece. Overcollecting decimated the populations and they were put on a restricted/banned list. Prices shot up to over $100 apiece. Somewhere in the timeline, Dictators became en vogue as a "alternative" and those on the know knew along there are many Pandinus species. Supply and demand made Emperor prices shoot up and captive breeding has always been needed and babies were fetching a good price.
It appears now that Emperors have returned in some volume and I hear of PetCo having them.
Seems like this happened to H troglodytes and H paudicens but don't know if their numbers in the market have grown. That's my rough interpretation of it and I'll let the experts fill in the gaps.

Interesting and honestly I always wondered what the deal was with the scorpions when it came to pricing. I just now decided to get a few scorpions after years of putting it off. I remember years ago them being pretty cheap and I use to see them at Petco then they just disappeared. Like you said the price just shot up all of a sudden and I figured it was due in part to the market just price gouging a growing popular new pet. I never knew the populations actually suffered b/c of it. Appreciate the information

 

[Daniel Edwards]

Petco does. But since this original feed... several wholesalers have them now. Sun Pet is the main wholesaler Petco uses as is Segrest Farms. Strictly Reptiles, LLL Reptile as well stock them now.

 

[Galapoheros]

My hunch is that dictators showing up in the market was a coincidence at the time because there were people that showed an intense interest in them for the past 10 years, just like when people were fascinated with Heterometrus swammerdami. Some had doubt P. dictator even existed so I don't think they were meant to be an alternative to imperator since they are harder to get. Somebody risked a one time illegal export/import of them, dictators have and I think they always will be harder to get than imperator. This explains part of the story http://www.customstoday.com.pk/fren...zes-115-live-scorpions-hidden-in-2-shipments/ Since imperators have practically disappeared, those that haven't seen one and want one are being fooled more often, trusting the ID at the pet stores.

 

[Stenodactylus]

My LPS had some dictator for sale. I traded for them all and decided to ID them with help from the boards. Turned out they are imperator, very obviously. I mean, I'm not complaining, any Pandinus are wonderful. I'm just wondering how many dictator are actually around.

 

[Galapoheros]

My LPS had some dictator for sale. I traded for them all and decided to ID them with help from the boards. Turned out they are imperator, very obviously. I mean, I'm not complaining, any Pandinus are wonderful. I'm just wondering how many dictator are actually around.

The manager of a local exotic pet store around here told me approx. 600 got into the US. For some years, dictator was the holy grail of Pandinus people wanted. The speculation is that some pet stores are selling imperator as dictator because they think saying they are dictators sounds more cool, making a quicker sale. It makes sense to me nobody will find dictator in a store unless a owner brought it to the store for whatever reason, getting a legal import of those is not likely and I would bet a legal import of them has never happened before.

 

[Stenodactylus]

That actually makes quite a bit of sense. They used to be so much more expensive and valuable than imperator. Now imperator are less common, but dictator are still quite a bit rarer.
Cavimanus just dropped off, same reason as imperator? Nobody cared?

 

[Galapoheros]

As far as I know, dictators have only been available one time in the history of the US pet market and that was a couple of years ago with that illegal import. People getting interested more recently aren't sure of the differences and are being fooled. I didn't know cavimanus was kind of dropping off, I've never looked into those.

 

[Daniel Edwards]

That actually makes quite a bit of sense. They used to be so much more expensive and valuable than imperator. Now imperator are less common, but dictator are still quite a bit rarer.
Cavimanus just dropped off, same reason as imperator? Nobody cared?

A local broker I know has cavimanus. I am planning on going to look... to see if its the real deal

 

[Galapoheros]

That actually makes quite a bit of sense. They used to be so much more expensive and valuable than imperator. Now imperator are less common, but dictator are still quite a bit rarer.
Cavimanus just dropped off, same reason as imperator? Nobody cared?

Oh, you said, "nobody cared", it made me wonder if you were thinking imperators dropped off because people lost interest. Did you know that Africa approved an export ban of imperator? That's what happened, people still want them but supply went to almost "0" due to the CITES status. I wouldn't be surprised if cavimanus was added to the CITES list later, it might be a good idea to find some breeders just in case. I heard there might be exports now and then, after habit evaluations and farmed/captive born imperators can be exported, only what I heard anyway.

 

[callum b]

Cavimanus just dropped off, same reason as imperator? Nobody cared?

As far as I'm aware Tanzania, which is the country they were exported from, has placed a ban on the export of all live wildlife because of problems with smuggling/corruption. From the few small pieces of information I've found via google it's not permanent, BUT, no date has been set as to when export will resume, if ever. This is also the reason why Hadogenes paucidens have disappeared. In my opinion, this is a good thing as most wild caught scorpions are too cheap, too disposable and don't end up in the care of keepers who have the time and ability to breed them (because the hobby is small, and the market is saturated in cheap WC's). However, it will be a shame to see these species disappear from the hobby.

 

[Stenodactylus]

Oh I know that they didn't drop out of the hobby due to lack of interest, but I remember a time when they were so common that nobody cared to breed them. Hence their big drop off: gets CITES listed, hobby too reliant upon imports. I know it's turned around a bit with imperator, lets hope there are some cavimanus breeders out there. I don't know if cavimanus will get CITES listed, wouldn't surprise me though.

@callum b, yep I remember when that went into effect. I was in the gecko hobby mostly when that occurred. Trust me, the scorpion hobby is not the only one with this problem, of "cheap import animals" disappearing. Not really even due to lack of interest, but due to the sad reality that nobody will take the time to breed them. Can you blame them though? A couple years ago, I was one of the only keepers/breeders of Hemidactylus squamulatus, platycephalus, tanganicus, and a few other oddballs. They were really cheap, but nobody else decided to work with them. Then the import ban hit, and the WC imports were dropping like flies. I had the only pair of squams left, and an environmental factor out of my control hit, and squams were done. I haven't seen them since.
Point of the rant: we need to set up breeding groups of animals WHILE they are still being imported, and get them breeding.