Pain and Tarantulas

[Mitchel]

Try not to laugh at me if this sounds stupid, but I'm still technically a first time owner and I've been curious about this for a while. This is a slightly more philosophical (for lack of a better word) question.

So, a while ago I came across a post on a different site by someone talking about how insects, arachnids, and other arthropods experience pain (or the equivalent of pain). And it got me thinking about my B. emilia. I (unknowingly) got her from a herpkeeper at an expo who I noticed was very hands-on and careless with her. She's a juvenile who hasn't molted in my care yet, so I haven't gotten a chance to measure (and lord knows I can't measure her at any other point), but she's fairly large. I noticed that her behavior compared to my very docile G. pulchra sling is much different. Especially for a species that I've seen behave very well before.

She's very jumpy and defensive, and when I first got her, she'd freak out whenever I opened the lid to her enclosure (which is as simple as me gently lifting it up). She's highly sensitive to any form of sensation, and, even though she's improved a bit since I got her in January, she hairs me frequently.

I've been wondering if this might be linked to her being handled and touched so much when she was with the guy who sold her to me. Almost like how an abused cat or dog will react when you first try to get them to warm up to you.

I know what some of you may be thinking, "This is a dumb question. Why would you ever need to know this?" And I get that. But it's something that I've been pondering for a very long time. For all I know, this could be completely normal behavior, and I'm just thinking too much into it (wouldn't be the first time).

And to be clear, I'm not asking this out of worry or concern, just because I'm genuinely curious about how tarantulas experience pain and trauma and how far we know their intelligence reaches. I know there's still a lot to figure out about tarantulas, scientifically speaking, but I am looking forward to hearing y'all's input on the subject.

 

[Arachnathulu]

I mean, who knows what they actually think or feel? They all seem to have their own personality, so that's something. I'd say you probably did this girl a favor though. You shouldn't pet the spider...

 

[Uial]

I don't know how any of my T's have been kept before they came to me. I can say that most of them are skittish at first, but they soon seem to realize that neither light nor vibration will do them any harm.

I had another chance to observe this with a recently acquired B. albopilosum. At first, a bright light and me walking by the enclosure sent her to her hide, and now, four days after her arrival, she's pretty much out all the time. No matter if it's night or day, she's sitting there, in the shade of her plastic plants even though there is light shining on her and she has the option to go into her much darker hide. Though she is the most visible of all my T's. I don't think she's scared of anything. You can shine a flashlight on her and she ignores it.

Same with my C. cyanopubescens. Out all the time and not light or vibration-sensitive, though she will run if you breathe too hard, or if you open the enclosure.

Even my P. irminia is out sometimes, chilling on her log, fast to run, but definitely out sometimes.

On the other hand, there is my B. vagans. She is a fossorial. (She behaves like one). I see her legs once in a blue moon. When she molts she does it in her hide. I haven't seen her whole body since I got her. I don't know why she behaves like that, but there you have it. I have both her and the Albo from spidershop.eu so they should have been kept similarily, but their behaviors could not be any more different if they tried.

 

[Vanessa]

For what it's worth, I have three Brachypelma emilia females - one senior who is around 25 years old, one sub-adult who is about 10 years old, and one juvenile at around five years old - and all three of them are very skittish and hair me more than just about any other species in my collection. The oldest girl was handled a bit when she was younger, and was very tolerant of it, but neither of the other two have ever been handled. All three behave in the same manner.
We don't really know for certain how much of a memory that they have, or that any organism with a ganglia nervous system has, but I would suspect that it would be very little, if at all. Even some animals with a much more complex central nervous system have poor memories, so animals without would probably have even less capacity for memory. They very much take their behavioural cues from what is happening in their immediate environment right now and not based upon what has happened to them in the past. Their responses are instinctual and not based upon looking into their memory for previous outcomes. Some are just simply more tolerant than others.
When it comes to pain, we have an absolutely deplorable track record predicting pain in other animals and we have been wrong about who feels pain almost 100% of the time at this point. Do they feel pain like we do? Likely not, but that doesn't mean that they don't feel pain and don't have the ability to suffer. It costs me nothing to err on the side of caution in case they do feel pain and I will always continue to do that. I will forever treat them in a manner to reduce their pain and suffering at all costs, despite whether they actually do have the ability to suffer and to what extent.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

I mean, who knows what they actually think or feel? They all seem to have their own personality, so that's something. I'd say you probably did this girl a favor though. You shouldn't pet the spider...

Petting a spider is just ignorance , I’m sure tarantulas have moods or feelings one some sort but far less then a reptile , and incomparable to even small mammals.

 

[Rhino1]

It's simply human nature to interpret the actions of the wild world around us based on human emotions. To say that tarantula is skittish because of its last owner doesn't sit well with me, it's basically just operating on instinct, whether or not that behaviour suits the keeper is another thing.
Why do people spend so much time and emotion attempting to apply their own moral sense to an animal’s actions? The answer lies in the human capacity for empathy — one of the qualities that helps us along as a social species.
On another note a few years ago a friend did a social test on Facebook where he had an image of a lion with a young antelope that looked like they were being friends, the truth was the antelope was tortured and played with for hours before being consumed. That post went crazy, the comments were ridiculous to say the least.
The more ppl are suburbanised the more they think every animal is like their dog, cat, goldfish etc
There's plenty of ppl here that interpret the most primitive instinctual behaviour as human emotions. I know this reply won't be popular but if you don't like it, just make your own story.

 

[SteveIDDQD]

I assume they have some capacity to tell when something is hurting them, and they will react to it at that moment. I highly doubt they can remember what it was that hurt them, and then apply the reaction proactively in any future encounter. They run on instinct IMO, and purely reactive to their local environment. Some people have reported very minor learnt behaviour, usually revolving around food, but it's never clear cut if it's coincidence, simple reaction or actual learnt behaviour.

I really have no issue with people treating them like more advanced creatures (to a certain extent, spider welfare has to come first), it just means more investment/happiness for the keeper.

 

[Vanisher]

Try not to laugh at me if this sounds stupid, but I'm still technically a first time owner and I've been curious about this for a while. This is a slightly more philosophical (for lack of a better word) question.

So, a while ago I came across a post on a different site by someone talking about how insects, arachnids, and other arthropods experience pain (or the equivalent of pain). And it got me thinking about my B. emilia. I (unknowingly) got her from a herpkeeper at an expo who I noticed was very hands-on and careless with her. She's a juvenile who hasn't molted in my care yet, so I haven't gotten a chance to measure (and lord knows I can't measure her at any other point), but she's fairly large. I noticed that her behavior compared to my very docile G. pulchra sling is much different. Especially for a species that I've seen behave very well before.

She's very jumpy and defensive, and when I first got her, she'd freak out whenever I opened the lid to her enclosure (which is as simple as me gently lifting it up). She's highly sensitive to any form of sensation, and, even though she's improved a bit since I got her in January, she hairs me frequently.

I've been wondering if this might be linked to her being handled and touched so much when she was with the guy who sold her to me. Almost like how an abused cat or dog will react when you first try to get them to warm up to you.

I know what some of you may be thinking, "This is a dumb question. Why would you ever need to know this?" And I get that. But it's something that I've been pondering for a very long time. For all I know, this could be completely normal behavior, and I'm just thinking too much into it (wouldn't be the first time).

And to be clear, I'm not asking this out of worry or concern, just because I'm genuinely curious about how tarantulas experience pain and trauma and how far we know their intelligence reaches. I know there's still a lot to figure out about tarantulas, scientifically speaking, but I am looking forward to hearing y'all's input on the subject.

I have no idea if arthropods can feel fysological pain. The pain is designed so that a ceature get out harms way. Like if you out your hand on a hot plate, you take it away emideatly. Without paun your hands woukd burn up!
But if a tarantula can feel pain i have no idea! Probabky, maybe?

 

[EtienneN]

This might be another 'unpopular' opinion, but given the fact that arthropods just have ganglion and don't have sympathetic nerve pathways, I'm really not sure they feel pain at all. For it to be likely that they do experience pain, there would need to be demonstrated proof that this was even possible. At the moment, we have no evidence that this is the case. But when euthanising tarantulas, we still put them in the fridge first before we put them in the freezer to mitigate the 'pain' they might feel during the cell crystalisation/freezing process. And I think that's the right thing to do.

As for memory, I agree with @Rhino1 We humans anthropomorphise animals to the Nth degree in this day and age. Not all living things have higher order central nervous systems. That doesn't make them 'broken' or 'less interesting'. We just need to recognise that they operate on a completely different level that is completely alien to our own senses, understanding, and interpretation of our world.

 

[Vanessa]

Historically, the scientific community has an extremely poor track record with claiming that other organisms don't feel pain. They even have a pretty deplorable track record when it comes to predicting human pain - let alone all the other species on this planet.
The only reason that the scientific community immediately dismisses and denies that other creatures feel pain is not based upon science as much as it is based upon what is in our best interests. Denying and dismissing that animals feel pain serves our best interest and never theirs. If we admit that there is even a chance that an organism feels pain - whether it is on par to our pain, or a completely foreign version of pain - then we have to ask ourselves the question of whether we have a moral obligation to reduce or eliminate their suffering. And doing so is not convenient to us in the least - especially not the scientific community who abhors the thought of their work having any sort of moral or ethical repercussions.
Don't get me wrong, because I appreciate and understand that we would not have anywhere close to the scientific breakthroughs that we do if the scientific community had to follow any sort of moral or ethical guidelines, but let's not pretend that scientists have not taken full advantage of that to commit some morally reprehensible abuses because of their exemption. And those abuses have very frequently done nothing to benefit the lives of anyone other than the scientist committing them.
The thought of me treating other creatures on this planet the way scientists have is abhorrent to me and is a huge reason for why I chose to not pursue a scientific career. I will never possess that level of apathy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[scifigetsmehigh]

Historically, the scientific community has an extremely poor track record with claiming that other organisms don't feel pain. They even have a pretty deplorable track record when it comes to predicting human pain - let alone all the other species on this planet.
The only reason that the scientific community immediately dismisses and denies that other creatures feel pain is not based upon science as much as it is based upon what is in our best interests. Denying and dismissing that animals feel pain serves our best interest and never theirs. If we admit that there is even a chance that an organism feels pain - whether it is on par to our pain, or a completely foreign version of pain - then we have to ask ourselves the question of whether we have a moral obligation to reduce or eliminate their suffering. And doing so is not convenient to us in the least - especially not the scientific community who abhors the thought of their work having any sort of moral or ethical repercussions.
Don't get me wrong, because I appreciate and understand that we would not have anywhere close to the scientific breakthroughs that we do if the scientific community had to follow any sort of moral or ethical guidelines, but let's not pretend that scientists have not taken full advantage of that to commit some morally reprehensible abuses because of their exemption. And those abuses have very frequently done nothing to benefit the lives of anyone other than the scientist committing them.
The thought of me treating other creatures on this planet the way scientists have is abhorrent to me and is a huge reason for why I chose to not pursue a scientific career. I will never possess that level of apathy and I wouldn't have it any other way.

There's a lot of science beyond biology

I do agree though for the most part. I once saw a documentary about lab mice and the unwanted pinkies were put to death by someone cutting their heads off with scissors. Seeing that scarred me, I could never work in pursuit of a science that caused so much suffering to live animals like that.

But as I said, there's plenty of science where the only creatures getting screwed over are other humans - and I'm a bit more ok with that.

 

[Vanessa]

There's a lot of science beyond biology

Yes, but biology is the only branch of science that deals with determining pain to any significant extent and isn't that what is being discussed?
And the use of animals for experimentation purposes has never been limited to the biological arm of science alone. So whether other sciences might not be responsible for determining pain thresholds they certainly benefit from declarations that animals don't feel pain.

 

[scifigetsmehigh]

Yes, but biology is the only branch of science that deals with determining pain to any significant extent and isn't that what is being discussed?
And the use of animals for experimentation purposes has never been limited to the biological arm of science alone. So whether other sciences might not be responsible for determining pain thresholds they certainly benefit from declarations that animals don't feel pain.

I don't disagree but there are many branches of science it doesn't apply to. Astronomy, for example.

 

[Vanessa]

I don't disagree but there are many branches of science it doesn't apply to. Astronomy, for example.

Lacking empathy is not limited to biology. It's funny that you should mention Astronomy... wasn't Neil DeGrasse Tyson in big trouble for making a completely inappropriate, and apathetic, comment about the public being "too emotional" in the wake of the mass shootings in the states?
Apathy is no stranger to all branches of the science community.

 

[scifigetsmehigh]

Lacking empathy is not limited to biology. It's funny that you should mention Astronomy... wasn't Neil DeGrasse Tyson in big trouble for making a completely inappropriate, and apathetic, comment about the public being "too emotional" in the wake of the mass shootings in the states?
Apathy is no stranger to all branches of the science community.

You're conflating science with simply being human. And you're reading too much into what I said.

For what it's worth I think Dr. Tyson is correct, we are too emotional and quick to jump on bandwagons when we should be calmly and objectively assessing the situation at hand in order to proceed in the least damaging and most efficient way.

 

[Vanessa]

You're conflating science with simply being human. And you're reading too much into what I said.
For what it's worth I think Dr. Tyson is correct, we are too emotional and quick to jump on bandwagons when we should be calmly and objectively assessing the situation at hand in order to proceed in the least damaging way.

And not being able to put yourself in the position of those people who had loved ones killed is the very definition of lacking empathy. I could not even imagine that I would make such a horrifically hurtful public statement like that - in the wake of those people being killed and the suffering that their loved ones are going through - even if I felt that way. Only the most apathetic personality with absolutely no feelings towards those suffering could make that statement publicly.
I think you need to go and actually look up the definitions of apathy and empathy.
Whether science promotes apathy, or whether science attracts those who lack empathy, is not relevant. The fact that there is a higher instance of apathy in the scientific community is not something that is new by any stretch.

 

[scifigetsmehigh]

And not being able to put yourself in the position of those people who had loved ones killed is the very definition of lacking empathy. I could not even imagine that I would make such a horrifically hurtful public statement like that - in the wake of those people being killed and the suffering that their loved ones are going through - even if I felt that way. Only the most apathetic personality with absolutely no feelings towards those suffering could make that statement publicly.
I think you need to go and actually look up the definitions of apathy and empathy.
Whether science promotes apathy, or whether science attracts those who lack empathy, is not relevant. The fact that there is a higher instance of apathy in the scientific community is not something that is new by any stretch.

Your subjective emotions should not impact efforts to improve society, however 'apathetic' you deem them to be. I care for those people in a way that demands long term solutions, not short term tears.

I've been nothing but reasonable, I simply stated my opinions, and you felt the need to jump down my throat and insult me? You don't know anything about me. Very sad.

Maybe it's you that needs to reassess your definition of empathy.

 

[Vanessa]

Your subjective emotions should not impact efforts to improve society, however 'apathetic' you deem them to be. I care for those people in a way that demands long term solutions, not short term tears.
I've been nothing but reasonable, I simply stated my opinions, and you felt the need to jump down my throat and insult me? You don't know anything about me. Very sad.
Maybe it's you that needs to reassess your definition of empathy.

It is nothing short of disgraceful to suggest that those people who feel empathy in the face of tragedy are not capable of subsequently making logical efforts to improve society and prevent future tragedies. How would any reasonable person not see that as insulting? That sounds to me like you're just another person claiming that your apathy somehow makes you more effective than those who are empathetic. And that will never, ever, make sense to me.
Let me guess, are you a member of the scientific community?

 

[EtienneN]

Well, I just want to point out there is a happy medium where you can absolutely empathise and care for another living being but at the same time be rational enough to keep your own emotions out of the equation, i.e. this is what doctors do all the time.

 

[Vanessa]

Well, I just want to point out there is a happy medium where you can absolutely empathise and care for another living being but at the same time be rational enough to keep your own emotions out of the equation, i.e. this is what doctors do all the time.

I don't understand how anyone can still be subscribing to this whole outdated way of thinking that empathy is synonymous with not being objective, effective, and rational.
All you have to do is look to all the victims, and victims groups, out there who have fought and successfully passed legislation around the world to see just how much of a motivator pain and suffering can be in the fight to get things done.