Okay Guys! Whats next?

[viper69]

I mean this is basically semantics, they are NWS, they are "from" the NW, but they are very much an old world by behavior

What about their behavior makes you think that, just curious.

 

[BishopiMaster]

What about their behavior makes you think that, just curious.

The fact they are fast and aggressive, the fact that their venom while not being purist OW is hotter than NW, they dont even have urticating hairs, their mechanism is their venom, for all intensive purposes psalmopoeus, particularly p irminia, are much more OW than they are NW by design

 

[viper69]

The fact they are fast and aggressive, the fact that their venom while not being purist OW is hotter than NW, they dont even have urticating hairs, their mechanism is their venom, for all intensive purposes psalmopoeus, particularly p irminia, are much more OW than they are NW by design

I understand what you are thinking, they have certain features found in OWs, but in point of fact everything you mentioned is found in other NW Ts too.

Tapi's are widely regarded as the fastest Ts out there, they are NW.

Tarantulas aren't aggressive, they keep to themselves. They don't go out of their way to start a fight with other animals. They are defensive. Now, man, that's an aggressive animal.

Their venom tends to be stronger than many other NWs, but they are still a NW T. The word purist doesn't fit here.

There are quite a few species of NW that don't have urticating setae, for example N. incei, and D. diamantinensis. So their mechanism is their venom, they are both pretty fast species, no one would think they are "more OW than NW"

 

[BishopiMaster]

I understand what you are thinking, they have certain features found in OWs, but in point of fact everything you mentioned is found in other NW Ts too.

Tapi's are widely regarded as the fastest Ts out there, they are NW.

Tarantulas aren't aggressive, they keep to themselves. They don't go out of their way to start a fight with other animals. They are defensive. Now, man, that's an aggressive animal.

Their venom tends to be stronger than many other NWs, but they are still a NW T. The word purist doesn't fit here.

There are quite a few species of NW that don't have urticating setae, for example N. incei, and D. diamantinensis. So their mechanism is their venom, they are both pretty fast species, no one would think they are "more OW than NW"

And that's a good point also, a Tapi wouldn't be good for her either as she has exclaimed that she is reluctant to transition to OW t's, and anything by behavior. "Everything you mentioned is found in other NW t's". When you are referring to a small subset to invalidate my argument, then that's not representational of the vast majority of new world T's. The vast majority of new world t's are not fast and aggressive, nor have the venom potency of psalmopoeus species such as p irminia. Your argument for "tarantulas are not aggressive, they keep to themselves, they are defensive, man is aggressive" actually flies in the face of the very reason that old worlds are not a problem, because as you said, tarantulas, and old worlds ARE tarantulas. No, they're not aggressive, but when they can shoot back around at quick speeds to the point that they enable themselves into a defensive position by way of being on a predator that's much larger than them, they BECOME defensive, and those fangs go down.

"Their venom tends to be stronger than many other NWs, but they are still a NW T. The word purist doesn't fit here"

The vast majority of new world tarantulas are slow, use urticating bristles as their mechanism for defense, and do not have a bite that causes significant bodily reaction, your argument does not fit here because when you say that there are other NW's that do not have urticating bristles either, you are referring to a small subset of new world tarantulas, it's not representational of the vast majority of NW's, so it is not useful.

The op has exclaimed that she is relunctant to transition to OW's, so let's not try to make a square peg fit in a round hole here by classifying p pirminia as NW and saying that there's nothing to their behavior.

 

[BishopiMaster]

And that's a good point also, a Tapi wouldn't be good for her either as she has exclaimed that she is reluctant to transition to OW t's, and anything by behavior. "Everything you mentioned is found in other NW t's". When you are referring to a small subset to invalidate my argument, then that's not representational of the vast majority of new world T's. The vast majority of new world t's are not fast and aggressive, nor have the venom potency of psalmopoeus species such as p irminia. Your argument for "tarantulas are not aggressive, they keep to themselves, they are defensive, man is aggressive" actually flies in the face of the very reason that old worlds are not a problem, because as you said, tarantulas, and old worlds ARE tarantulas. No, they're not aggressive, but when they can shoot back around at quick speeds to the point that they enable themselves into a defensive position by way of being on a predator that's much larger than them, they BECOME defensive, and those fangs go down.

"Their venom tends to be stronger than many other NWs, but they are still a NW T. The word purist doesn't fit here"

The vast majority of new world tarantulas are slow, use urticating bristles as their mechanism for defense, and do not have a bite that causes significant bodily reaction, your argument does not fit here because when you say that there are other NW's that do not have urticating bristles either, you are referring to a small subset of new world tarantulas, it's not representational of the vast majority of NW's, so it is not useful.

The op has exclaimed that she is relunctant to transition to OW's, so let's not try to make a square peg fit in a round hole here by classifying p pirminia as NW and saying that there's nothing to their behavior.

Sorry, by classifying p pirminias behavior as insignificant because they are from the new world.

 

[viper69]

And that's a good point also, a Tapi wouldn't be good for her either as she has exclaimed that she is reluctant to transition to OW t's, and anything by behavior. "Everything you mentioned is found in other NW t's". When you are referring to a small subset to invalidate my argument, then that's not representational of the vast majority of new world T's. The vast majority of new world t's are not fast and aggressive, nor have the venom potency of psalmopoeus species such as p irminia. Your argument for "tarantulas are not aggressive, they keep to themselves, they are defensive, man is aggressive" actually flies in the face of the very reason that old worlds are not a problem, because as you said, tarantulas, and old worlds ARE tarantulas. No, they're not aggressive, but when they can shoot back around at quick speeds to the point that they enable themselves into a defensive position by way of being on a predator that's much larger than them, they BECOME defensive, and those fangs go down.

"Their venom tends to be stronger than many other NWs, but they are still a NW T. The word purist doesn't fit here"

The vast majority of new world tarantulas are slow, use urticating bristles as their mechanism for defense, and do not have a bite that causes significant bodily reaction, your argument does not fit here because when you say that there are other NW's that do not have urticating bristles either, you are referring to a small subset of new world tarantulas, it's not representational of the vast majority of NW's, so it is not useful.

The op has exclaimed that she is relunctant to transition to OW's, so let's not try to make a square peg fit in a round hole here by classifying p pirminia as NW and saying that there's nothing to their behavior.

OW aren't a problem-- not sure what you mean by that. NWs aren't a "problem" either. In either case, OW are more defensive generally than NWs, but not aggressive.

I was only pointing out there are other NW Ts that have some of the characteristics the Psalmo genus has, nothing more.

In all cases, including Psalmo, those Ts are NW, it's a SCIENTIFIC fact. If you don't understand that, I suggest you see where they are from. Last I checked that part of the world was in fact the New World

 

[Grimmdreadly]

I currently have 5 tarantulas, mostly terrestrial, 1 arboreal. I am looking for some suggestions on new additions. What are your favorite species to keep? Trying to keep it affordable. Thanks guys!

T.Gigas
P. Cambridgi
P.Irminia
Or you can get really adventurous
P.fasciata
P. Miranda
P.tigrinawesseli

 

[BishopiMaster]

OW aren't a problem-- not sure what you mean by that. NWs aren't a "problem" either. In either case, OW are more defensive generally than NWs, but not aggressive.

I was only pointing out there are other NW Ts that have some of the characteristics the Psalmo genus has, nothing more.

In all cases, including Psalmo, those Ts are NW, it's a SCIENTIFIC fact. If you don't understand that, I suggest you see where they are from. Last I checked that part of the world was in fact the New World

I think you're missing the point, I'm not opposing the fact that psalms are new world, I'm saying that despite them "NW", they are fast, aggressive, and hot, NW or not, and this is an exercise in semantics for what constitutes the independent factor of why OWs are a problem FOR the op which is speed, aggression, and venom. You say they're not aggressive, call it what you will, at the end of the day when the spider finds itself in your path regardless of why it was there, they tend to defend themselves.

"OW aren't a problem-- not sure what you mean by that. NWs aren't a "problem" either. In either case, OW are more defensive generally than NWs, but not aggressive."

You also seem to be arguing from the viewpoint of old world tarantulas themselves, without considering the OP's reluctance to acquire tarantulas of that nature, the point is not whether or not OW's in and of themselves are a "problem", it's that the OP has expressed their nature to abstain from tarantulas of that nature, and when you have other tarantulas, NW or not, such as psalm irminia, which embody those same characteristics, albeit not quite at the same scale, you are doing the OP a disservice by providing them a false sense of security.

 

[JJC]

GBB is a must have...looks, visibility and great webbers.
M. balfouri is an awesome T but definitely on the pricy side.
G. pulchra gets another vote from me. Mine is always out and about and, as others have said, the jet black look is really stunning.
G. pulchripes are also nice.
And -- you can never have enough Avics (or whatever they may be now classified as).
Good luck!

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I'm saying that despite them "NW", they are fast, aggressive, and hot, NW or not, and this is an exercise in semantics for what constitutes the independent factor of why OWs are a problem FOR the op which is speed, aggression, and venom.

You're pretty much just arguing for the sake of it now as well as putting words in the OP's mouth, aside from only mentioning currently wanting a species with a bit less attitude than an OW (there's a pretty wide scope here) when you pointed out her collection thus far was made up solely of NW's (see highlighted below), one of the species she was considering is an OW, (see highlighted in the quote at the end below) which suggests to me that she has no problem with working towards getting one eventually so a P. cambridgei/irminia/etc. would be a logical step to that end (more attitude than an Avic, less than an OBT... Although she's already whittled it down to 2 of the species in the list quoted below so this is pretty much irrelevant by now).

- Sure, Psalmos are fast but, to be honest, there's no such thing as a slow arboreal and, believe it or not, there are faster NW terrestrials (I don't even care that I'm cherry-picking here, the entire Ephebopus genus would dust a Psalmo, they are insanely fast).
- They are not aggressive, they can be defensive (argue semantics all you like but they do not go out of their way to attack people, biting is a last resort, even for species that lack urticating setae) but that's down to the individual (by B. hamorii makes my P. irminia look like a kitten), I could rattle off a list of NW species that are generally much more defensive than any Psalmo.
- They are not "hot" (that you even considering them so is laughable), don't get me wrong, a bite would probably ruin your day but that's about the worst of it unless you have a severe allergic reaction, bites from actual OW species can and do mess people up for weeks afterwards even if they don't have to go to the hospital.

I have exclusively stuck to NW's because I'm new and I wanted to tackle a few hardier species with a bit less attitude first. I have considered an LP but I'm loving my avic and am also looking into more arboreals.

I'll give you guys all a list of ones that I'm heavily considering:
GBB
C. versicolor
A. purpurea
LP
OBT??(little afraid, a lot in love)

 

[BishopiMaster]

You're pretty much just arguing for the sake of it now as well as putting words in the OP's mouth, aside from only mentioning currently wanting a species with a bit less attitude than an OW (there's a pretty wide scope here) when you pointed out her collection thus far was made up solely of NW's (see highlighted below), one of the species she was considering is an OW, (see highlighted in the quote at the end below) which suggests to me that she has no problem with working towards getting one eventually so a P. cambridgei/irminia/etc. would be a logical step to that end (more attitude than an Avic, less than an OBT... Although she's already whittled it down to 2 of the species in the list quoted below so this is pretty much irrelevant by now).

- Sure, Psalmos are fast but, to be honest, there's no such thing as a slow arboreal and, believe it or not, there are faster NW terrestrials (I don't even care that I'm cherry-picking here, the entire Ephebopus genus would dust a Psalmo, they are insanely fast).
- They are not aggressive, they can be defensive (argue semantics all you like but they do not go out of their way to attack people, biting is a last resort, even for species that lack urticating setae) but that's down to the individual (by B. hamorii makes my P. irminia look like a kitten), I could rattle off a list of NW species that are generally much more defensive than any Psalmo.
- They are not "hot" (that you even considering them so is laughable), don't get me wrong, a bite would probably ruin your day but that's about the worst of it unless you have a severe allergic reaction, bites from actual OW species can and do mess people up for weeks afterwards even if they don't have to go to the hospital.

"You're pretty much just arguing for the sake of it now as well as putting words in the OP's mouth."

"You caught me. I have exclusively stuck to OW's because I'm new and I wanted to tackle a few hardier species with a bit less attitude first."

That is direct from the OP, the keyword sir is reluctant, not won't

- They are not aggressive, they can be defensive (argue semantics all you like but they do not go out of their way to attack people, biting is a last resort, even for species that lack urticating setae)

Nah, you're the one arguing semantics here by saying because they do not initiate by being "aggressive", it's irrelevant, the real point here is that they can find themselves in that position.

It is interesting that you say that i am arguing for the sake of arguing, when your argument most likely stems from your love of old world tarantulas, because, why not just go with the flow of along the lines of what the OP is leaning towards?

On the top of p Irminia venom being laughable...


"The next day, he wasn't vomitting, but he was having muscle spasms in his arm and hand. He said it felt as if he couldn't bend his arm fully. Within 3 days all symptoms cleared up, but he said he still felt weak and achy for a few days... (http://arachnoboards.com/threads/psalmopoeus-irminia.5669/)"


"Since their venom is more on the strong side (very painful since the three Vanillotoxins within the venom target the same neuronal receptor that capsaicin does (the alkaloid from hot chili peppers , also known as TRPV1 which causes the burning sensation)) and can cause systemic reactions like vomitting, sweating, lightheadedness and muscle-spasms for a couple days.http://arachnoboards.com/threads/a-closer-look-at-psalmopoeus-irminia-venezuelan-suntiger.280577/" (while yes, it's cambrigei, it's still a psalm) (https://neurophilosophy.wordpress.c...a-toxin-turns-up-the-heat-on-sensory-neurons/)

So, laughable? that's a reach, please do note that psalms are not just, right in the middle of NW and OW, they are incredibly fast as well, also, the statement that there's no such thing as a slow arboreal i is an appeal to futility fallacy and it's factually incorrect, especially when you consider the relative speed of something like an avic vs a psalm, the fact that you are not, at the very least, paying the psalm it's hotter status, and it's speed, is not only incorrect, but it's irresponsible.

 

[Timc]

7.5 is the line for the word "semantics" being used in this thread.

 

[viper69]

I think you're missing the point, I'm not opposing the fact that psalms are new world, I'm saying that despite them "NW", they are fast, aggressive, and hot, NW or not, and this is an exercise in semantics for what constitutes the independent factor of why OWs are a problem FOR the op which is speed, aggression, and venom. You say they're not aggressive, call it what you will, at the end of the day when the spider finds itself in your path regardless of why it was there, they tend to defend themselves.

"OW aren't a problem-- not sure what you mean by that. NWs aren't a "problem" either. In either case, OW are more defensive generally than NWs, but not aggressive."

You also seem to be arguing from the viewpoint of old world tarantulas themselves, without considering the OP's reluctance to acquire tarantulas of that nature, the point is not whether or not OW's in and of themselves are a "problem", it's that the OP has expressed their nature to abstain from tarantulas of that nature, and when you have other tarantulas, NW or not, such as psalm irminia, which embody those same characteristics, albeit not quite at the same scale, you are doing the OP a disservice by providing them a false sense of security.

A few things...

1. My initial comment was direct to you, and not to the OP. Your original statements seemed to indicate that MAYBE you thought they were OW Ts. I wasn't the only the person who thought your words were not clear.

2. You seem to be quite confused on the difference between aggressive and defensive. If an animal goes out of its way to attack something for no reason, that's usually and act of aggression (there are some exceptions), like when a person walks up to someone and shoots their brains out.
Alternatively when someone has a home invasion for example, and kills someone, it's typically viewed as a defensive behavior. See the difference, I can't imagine you won't.

3. I'm not addressing the OP's comments, just yours. I understand what you are saying regarding disservice. That would be true IF I was suggesting to the OP that s/he get a Psalmo. However, I was never suggesting that, nor was I writing to the OP. I was writing to you Hence why you were quoted, and the OP wasn't, make sense?

 

[viper69]

there's no such thing as a slow arboreal and, believe it or not, there are faster NW terrestrials

My A. minatrix can run circles around me. One time she was "out", and on a stick I was holding, she did a nice 720 rotation before I could react and came to a complete halt, it was amazing.

(I don't even care that I'm cherry-picking here, the entire Ephebopus genus would dust a Psalmo, they are insanely fast).

So true on Eph!! My Blue Fangs were insanely fast for any terrestrials.

 

[BishopiMaster]

1. So youre basically extrapolating off text, okay.

2. Your analogy is simple and you misunderstand my point. By virtue of the tarantula finding itself in a position where it has found itself due to its speed, such as bolting onto your arm, and sensing that it is on a living person much bigger than it, it can become defensive, and this is magnified with the faster, more skittish t's such as psalms and on up to OW's,

3. You fail to understand the implications of your opinions, by you arguing the meaning of nw vs ow, without acknowledging the other factors such as venom effect and speed, you are doing a disservice.

 

[Andrea82]

@Rachel C
To circumvent the discussion on Psalmopoeus above;
They are fast, and their bites hurt, but generally won't send you to the hospital.
Another characteristic is that they move in a way that can make you think 'hey, this isn't so bad', and then they bolt on you, so be alert at all times if you decide to go with a member of this genus. Out of this genus I think P.cambridgei is the best option since they are out more, aren't as defensive as P.irminia and are good eaters.

However, considering what you currently keep, I'd suggest getting a faster terrestrial first, like GBB, or a terrestrial with a bit more attitude like A.geniculata or P.cancerides.

I'd hold off on the P.murinus and Poecilotheria species as absolutely nothing in your current collection prepares you for these species.
They are fast and defensive and have a venom that can ruin your week, or month.
IF you decide to go with either species, please consider this:

And this:

 

[viper69]

1. So youre basically extrapolating off text, okay.

2. Your analogy is simple and you misunderstand my point. By virtue of the tarantula finding itself in a position where it has found itself due to its speed, such as bolting onto your arm, and sensing that it is on a living person much bigger than it, it can become defensive, and this is magnified with the faster, more skittish t's such as psalms and on up to OW's,

3. You fail to understand the implications of your opinions, by you arguing the meaning of nw vs ow, without acknowledging the other factors such as venom effect and speed, you are doing a disservice.

1. No I'm reading text, myself and another board member read your words, there was no extrapolating. It seemed you weren't sure, case closed.

2. My analogy was to make a point, ie the difference between aggressive and defensive, because you have used those words as one in the same in your posts. They are not the same thing at all. You seem to have taken my analogy too literally.

3. The meaning of NW and OW is simply where the Ts are found geographically, case closed. This is not something up for debate as you continue to do, I am not arguing anything, merely pointing out the fact, ie the difference between OW and NW, which is decided by 1 simple FACT.

A disservice is using aggressive and defensive interchangeably.

If someone found a tarantula that lived in Africa, had urticating setae and was as docile as E. sp. Red, the world know it as an OW T, but would you call it a NW T?

Conversely, if a T was found in Utah, with the hottest venom, most defensive behavior and lacked urticating setae, it would still be a NW T, like a Psalmo.


I'm doing no one a disservice at all. At no point did I recommend the OP getting a Psalmo, you seem to THINK that I did with some magical thinking you have. Rather than rely on magic, please show me where I specifically told the OP to get an OW or a Psalmo.....

I have many times over the course of many years here advocated the ladder system using Psalmo's as jumping point to OWs.

You are hilarious.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

@BishopiMaster

No one deny the fact that, P.cambridgei especially, are somewhat 'Pokies bastard sons' with a lot in common with OW's arboreal than genus Avicularia has, but they are NW Theraphosidae.

As far as their level of defensiveness they aren't that bad at all. While I wouldn't suggest to Rachel C one, now (is better to try first certain NW a bit speedy, IMO) is incredible the 'curtain' of Myth that sometimes jumps out behind a P.cambridgei (hands down probably one of the most hardy and easy to keep arboreal ever).

 

[Chris LXXIX]

However another thing that is incredible for me is to always view NW Theraphosidae as more "calmer". How that's possible?

Megaphobema robustum try to literally kick everything that moves (they prefer to do that 90 out of 100 instead of bite) and this is a clearly signal of being defensive.

I had a Phormictopus cancerides that was by far worst (better for my views ) than a lot of OW's I have.

Genus Ephebopus, if they wants, can be very nervous as well.

Certain P.irminia are by far more defensive and skittish than certain Poecilotheria... but there's a lot of those examples... sometimes I think that the whole NW "world", at 360°, is highly underestimated.

It's not always a matter of kicking setae VS potent venom bites.

 

[kevinlowl]

I mean this is basically semantics, they are NWS, they are "from" the NW, but they are very much an old world by behavior

If Columbus actually landed on India, does that make India part of the New World?