More Oxygen = ?

[kalvaer]

I understand that you are assuming that the oxygen is just appearing from nowhere. If that's right, than the "No mass is created, all is transformed" basic law of universe went were? I'm assuming (ASSUMING) that all that oxygen came from the Carbon Dioxide provenient from the erupted volcanos (sp.).

Over a long period of time. I would say yes. While the O2 might have to come from the CO2, Volcanic eruptions can release massive amounts of it rather quickly. Once its there the pressure should remain the same while its converted, but its still increased because you added something that wasn't there in the first place (to what is pretty much a sealed experiment) I'm not sure though how the expansion of the atmoshpere works as this could release pressure, but then you also have the problem of the atmosphere actually "breaking" off or becoming lost in space (which I believe has happened before)

What also needs to be considered it that its not only the CO2 (and a whole lot of other nasties) that are suddenly being released. You do most of the time have magma rushing into the ocean. This will cause huge amounts of steam.

Liquid water becoming water gas (steam) at constant volume, generates a pressure of 30,000 atmospheres.

Lets go back a few million years where we have not one volcano erupting every century, but a few of them going off daily. I think its quiet possible to assume that the atmospheric pressure could rapidly increase as if it appeared to come out of no where?

 

[Radamanthys]

Over a long period of time. I would say yes. While the O2 might have to come from the CO2, Volcanic eruptions can release massive amounts of it rather quickly. Once its there the pressure should remain the same while its converted, but its still increased because you added something that wasn't there in the first place (to what is pretty much a sealed experiment) I'm not sure though how the expansion of the atmoshpere works as this could release pressure, but then you also have the problem of the atmosphere actually "breaking" off or becoming lost in space (which I believe has happened before)

What also needs to be considered it that its not only the CO2 (and a whole lot of other nasties) that are suddenly being released. You do most of the time have magma rushing into the ocean. This will cause huge amounts of steam.

Liquid water becoming water gas (steam) at constant volume, generates a pressure of 30,000 atmospheres.

Lets go back a few million years where we have not one volcano erupting every century, but a few of them going off daily. I think its quiet possible to assume that the atmospheric pressure could rapidly increase as if it appeared to come out of no where?

I still don't think it would have a significant increase in the pressure. When the land life (as plants) started to appear, aquatic life was already there. The volcanos weren't as active as waaay back when there were thousands of eruptions a day all over the world. Of course, the amount of CO2 thrown in the atmosphere was huge, and we can assume that the atmosphere volume increased, i agree with you about that. My point is: That was not enough to increase pressure that much. When you have millions (maybe billions) of cubic meters of gas, some hundred meters aren't really significant. Gases aren't "heavy" as liquids, where in 10 meters you double the pressure.

And the amount of steam would just rain back or condensate (sp). It would evaporate and dissolve in the atmosphere until it reaches the saturation point. Once there it will simply condensate or rain back. Water is not a gas in the atmosphere, it's dissolved there like alcohol in liquid water. That's why we have "gas" water at normal pressure and temperature conditions. (From what i know, please someone correct me if i'm wrong.)

Very interest discution here. :clap:

 

[kalvaer]

Gases water (AKA steam) will remain water even in its gases stage. But it does effect the pressure. We use it in systems we sell (I build furnaces for a living) basically what happens is water is added to an otherwise sealed enviroment at about 750 degrees C, this almost instantly turns it into super heated steam. What it does is force out all of the other gases that may be present, specifically O2 in our situation. (by creating a positive pressure of steam) This allows us to then add the product into the unit which then does not ignite at that temperature and burn because of the lack of O2 (You need to be carefull though about adding to much water to quick.. LOL we have had an instance where a whole plant nearly blew up because they just released massive amounts of water into the unit.

Though it has made me think. If the O2 levels are largely dependent on the CO2 levels, Couldn't we then assume that there could not have been much more O2 than there is now a million years ago? If the current carbon dioxide levels are at 0.038%. Then the O2 could only have increased by that amount which would cause a zero CO2 state (which would mean plants would die wouldn't it? Unless O2 is somehow convertable into Nitrogen

 

[Radamanthys]

Gases water (AKA steam) will remain water even in its gases stage. But it does effect the pressure. We use it in systems we sell (I build furnaces for a living) basically what happens is water is added to an otherwise sealed enviroment at about 750 degrees C, this almost instantly turns it into super heated steam. What it does is force out all of the other gases that may be present, specifically O2 in our situation. (by creating a positive pressure of steam) This allows us to then add the product into the unit which then does not ignite at that temperature and burn because of the lack of O2 (You need to be carefull though about adding to much water to quick.. LOL we have had an instance where a whole plant nearly blew up because they just released massive amounts of water into the unit.

Though it has made me think. If the O2 levels are largely dependent on the CO2 levels, Couldn't we then assume that there could not have been much more O2 than there is now a million years ago? If the current carbon dioxide levels are at 0.038%. Then the O2 could only have increased by that amount which would cause a zero CO2 state (which would mean plants would die wouldn't it? Unless O2 is somehow convertable into Nitrogen

I'm assuming that by saying "Gases water (AKA steam) will remain water even in its gases stage" that it will remain liquid? Just in form of small drops? Well, it still transforms in gas. Gas is a state of matter. In atmospheric conditions os under pressure it condensates in the air and form drops. That's another story. At open systems like atmosphere, the pressure caused by the evaporation is despicable (sp). In closed system is another story.

Yeah, you rised a very interesting tought. Can't answer that one. There may be another source of oxygen in atmosphere. Or all the carbon for CO2 is used now for other thins (me, you and the other 6 billion people for example)

 

[Arachn'auQuébec]

There was a TV series by BCC called "the Big blue ocean." Over a few years they did research by sending down highly specialised subs to investigate things.

They mentioned how on each trip down, they discovered species still unknown to man. Down at the bottom of some rifts, They found tube worms living on volcanic vents, and eating on these were massive crabs. The water was boiling, and almost sulphuric acid from the vents. Yet things were there. I'll have to watch it again to make certain, but I think they said the worms had evolved to process the methane gas simular to a form of "photosynthesis" and the crabs were eating them for food. There were also other things simular to plants (or algae fields rather)

At anything past 100m, light is pretty much non existant. At 7 mile, you can bet there isn't any but the luckiest of photons. Due to the pressure these things live at. Its also impossible to bring them to the surface. As they explode when bringing them up

They also found a spot somewhere off the coast of mexico I think it was were there were massive fields of plants living off the methane gas escaping from vents.

The fact that creatures were living in pressures in excess of 1000bar, greater than 100 degrees C and sulphric acid, makes you wonder what could be living on a planet like venus? Prove that life exists beyond our atmosphere can be found not out of it.. but under our oceans

Interesting! I will try to find this program on the net

 

[Mr. Gone]

Wow!

I just wanted to say how much I've really, really, really been enjoying this discussion. I mean 5 pages of scientific discussion, and links, that's great!!!!

I wish we had more "juicy" discussions like this instead of all the poorly spelled posts, and redundant, simple questions like: "help! my T is just sitting still" and such.

 

[Arachn'auQuébec]

Gases water (AKA steam) will remain water even in its gases stage. But it does effect the pressure. We use it in systems we sell (I build furnaces for a living) basically what happens is water is added to an otherwise sealed enviroment at about 750 degrees C, this almost instantly turns it into super heated steam. What it does is force out all of the other gases that may be present, specifically O2 in our situation. (by creating a positive pressure of steam) This allows us to then add the product into the unit which then does not ignite at that temperature and burn because of the lack of O2 (You need to be carefull though about adding to much water to quick.. LOL we have had an instance where a whole plant nearly blew up because they just released massive amounts of water into the unit.

Though it has made me think. If the O2 levels are largely dependent on the CO2 levels, Couldn't we then assume that there could not have been much more O2 than there is now a million years ago? If the current carbon dioxide levels are at 0.038%. Then the O2 could only have increased by that amount which would cause a zero CO2 state (which would mean plants would die wouldn't it? Unless O2 is somehow convertable into Nitrogen

A little mistake is being made here. Photosynthesis does not convert CO2 in O2, CO2 is converted in macromolecules, the O2 released as a toxic waste by plants actually comes from H2O. Also, plants couldn't really die because they consumed all the CO2, mainly because they also consume O2 and release CO2 when there is no light, but also because CO2 is a limitant factor of photosynthesis. Plants will grow proportionally faster up to a maximum of 5 times the normal concentration of CO2 in their environment. Wich, If we take your datas about actual CO2 concentrations, means that plants are actually running 5 times slower than when CO2 concentrations were at about 0.2% (there are other limitant factors of course, like light and minerals, but lets say we have enough of all these) . And they would continue to slow down until they reach an equilibrum between their consomation and production of CO2 if we weren't there to produce it in massive amounts...

I don't understand why converting O2 in N2 would help?

 

[Arachn'auQuébec]

I still don't think it would have a significant increase in the pressure. When the land life (as plants) started to appear, aquatic life was already there. The volcanos weren't as active as waaay back when there were thousands of eruptions a day all over the world. Of course, the amount of CO2 thrown in the atmosphere was huge, and we can assume that the atmosphere volume increased, i agree with you about that. My point is: That was not enough to increase pressure that much. When you have millions (maybe billions) of cubic meters of gas, some hundred meters aren't really significant. Gases aren't "heavy" as liquids, where in 10 meters you double the pressure.

You bet Volcanos are a good way to increase atmospheric pressure, this is how our atmosphere was formed. When our planet was nothing but a mass of molten matter, as it was cooling, gases into solution in that matter were released , lighter gases like hydrogen and helium were blown away by solar winds, as heavier ones, like CO2 were kept by the gravitational field. This is why our atmosphere was mainly CO2 at the beginning. The degassing(?) of the earth has slowed down ever since, but keeps going on.

I do enjoy these discussions too, there are a lot of interesting people here.

 

[Radamanthys]

You bet Volcanos are a good way to increase atmospheric pressure, this is how our atmosphere was formed. When our planet was nothing but a mass of molten matter, as it was cooling, gases into solution in that matter were released , lighter gases like hydrogen and helium were blown away by solar winds, as heavier ones, like CO2 were kept by the gravitational field. This is why our atmosphere was mainly CO2 at the beginning. The degassing(?) of the earth has slowed down ever since, but keeps going on.

I do enjoy these discussions too, there are a lot of interesting people here.

They were increaser of atmosferic pressure. As i said, when you had no atmosphere they created it. But nowadays i doubt they would increase the atm pressure...

 

[DrAce]

Please, who doesnt love a good flogging? ok then, lets engage in a round of as the pchem proffesor. That seems counter intuitive. How could a gas not become more dense if you increase pressure. I mean, when you compress oxygen into a tank, it becomes more dense...

Or in a piston. If I push down on it to increase the pressure on the gas, the gas compresses, thus making it more dense. by definition, the there is more gas per unit volume.

Yup... so my point was that if oxygen was to dramatically increase in concentration (let's face it, it's going from 5% to 35% of the atmosphere - that's a big increase in total gasses), then you'd expect the atmosphere to get denser.

But these are bacterias only environments, maybe some tough eucaryotic unicellulars such as protozoans, and even then...I would be surprised......no multicellular organism that I know of could live without oxygen, with high sulfur and heat. Some plants could possibly...but light is absent at those distances from the surface.

I give you good ol' Wikipedia. I draw your attention to the bit on biology about 1/2 way down. Evidently, worms, crabs, shrimp, and even fish hang out down there in the murky depths... fed only by heat and sulfur.

I understand that you are assuming that the oxygen is just appearing from nowhere. If that's right, than the "No mass is created, all is transformed" basic law of universe went were? I'm assuming (ASSUMING) that all that oxygen came from the Carbon Dioxide provenient from the erupted volcanos (sp.). The carbon is used by the plants to live, constructing organic molecules as food for them and the oxygen gas release from it goes to the atmosphere.
So, basically, you are taking CO2 and releasing O2, not increasing (significantly) the volume of gases in the atmosphere.

Oxygen is a major component of rocks. Rocks, as you know, are solid. Even if I remove all the oxygen, and leave some new type of rock which is missing oxygen (say, pure sillicon instead of quartz), then the new rock isn't going to significantly change in volume. Solids don't behave like that. Their volume doesn't change the atmospheric volume at all.

Plants were responsible for the vast increase in oxygen, but that oxygen came from somewhere. It's not immediately clear where the carbon dioxide came from to drive that photosynthesis.

 

[Arachn'auQuébec]

Evidently, worms, crabs, shrimp, and even fish hang out down there in the murky depths... fed only by heat and sulfur.

Very interesting reading, the base of the food chain there is chemo-autotrophic bacterias, and all the others feed from there. Biology won't stop to surprise me... how can some people fear the end of the world when you see how life can survive anywhere...

 

[Pacmaster]

how can some people fear the end of the world when you see how life can survive anywhere...

Because this will be the first time humans are involved . . .

 

[kalvaer]

Photosynthesis does not convert CO2 in O2, CO2 is converted in macromolecules, the O2 released as a toxic waste by plants actually comes from H2O.

Correct, what they found though was that these worms had been able to do pretty much the same as what we normally consider to be photosynthesis with light, O2 and CO2, But instead were using methane and other particles from the vents, and no light at all. Also instead of H2O, they were living in what we would consider sulphric acid. The discovery of these creatures was something that defied all laws of nature as we currently know it. I see from the link that DrAce posted, its actually called chemosynthesis

Also though as you mentioned, Plants work both ways, using both CO2 and O2, but what about when there was no O2. If plants created all the O2 from CO2, then how did they evolve to a point were they could switch the process?

I don't understand why converting O2 in N2 would help?

It wouldn't.. because it cant be done Unless your my wife who is a high energy nuclear physicist who seems to love ripping particles from atoms to see what happens.

It was meant as a joke, since unless these is something in nature that can convert Nitrogen into another type of gas, like plants do with CO2 and O2, I dont see how the levels of the two in question, can vary greatly from what they are now (excluding the influx created by volcano's)

 

[DrAce]

...
It was meant as a joke, since unless these is something in nature that can convert Nitrogen into another type of gas, like plants do with CO2 and O2, I dont see how the levels of the two in question, can vary greatly from what they are now (excluding the influx created by volcano's)

I suspect that biology would have already discovered an organism capable of transmutation. Heck, the alchemists would have been all over it like a rash.

 

[skips]

This discussion has gone so far off the original topic its ridiculous. I'm ok with it though.

To continue to add my own two cents. Even human cells can survive ok without oxygen. I assume something like homolactic fermentation or ATP synthesis forming ethanol could have been used. Not exactly through that pathway maybe, but it's done.

Plus, there was actually an article a while ago I read, I dont remember where, that talked about deep ocean bacteria that actually used photosynthesis for fuel. They used the incredibly tiny amount of photons released by chemical reactions to drive photosynthesis. I know, implausible, but its what they found. I can't remember, but they may have gotten some light off of phospholuminescense as well. I mean, deep ocean doesn't mean no oxygen, it just means not a lot of it. Oh, and there are also massive (relatively) amoebas living down there as well. meaning eukaryotic, though not multicellular.

 

[kalvaer]

@ skips, Not really, You asked if the story of more O2 was true, we're trying to discuss if it is true, and what the effects of it would be if it wasn't, or reversed You should try see if you can get hold of the BBC deep blue ocean episode. I've watched it a few times and each time I am still gob smacked

PS: Sorry for the derail

@ DrAce, LOL I guess your right about the alchemists. I know it can be done now days in physics in nuclear accelerators, but the cost involved is so immense, that it doesn't make it viable. It does also happen stars, with something called the CNO cycle (I need to look that up btw, My wife just told me what its called )

 

[Radamanthys]

I'm not going to quote all i wanted cause i'm a lazy guy and its 5:33 AM here, i've gone to sleep at 12:36PM. lol

I just wanted to say that i agree with you all. The volume of the atmosphere may have changed, and saying that the density would be the same it's just plain stupid. My points here are:

- The atmospheric pressure would not increase significantly. (I'm throwing values here of ~5000 Pa tops)
- The increase in the pressure would not kill us all.
- The volcanos threw Carbon Dioxide in the air and the plants converted it by photosynthesis in Oxygen (thanks Arachn'auQuébec for the corrections). The reason there is 20% of O2 on the atmosphere now and 0,038% of CO2 is that the carbon is used in photosyntesis to produce organic molecules. If a cow eats the plant, the carbon goes to her and so on. But the O2 is free to the atmosphere.
- I didn't understood the rocks argument of DrAce, sorry.

 

[DrAce]

...
- I didn't understood the rocks argument of DrAce, sorry.

It's pretty simple. Solids don't shrink very much when you take bits out of them (that's not strictly true - but I'm going to hold onto it for this discussion).

For example, take some copper sulfate crystals. Measure their size. Heat them, until they distinctly change colour (there'll be water driven off), and then re-measure their dimensions.

They won't have shrunk considerably.

The reason for this is because rocks have a defined structure based on their crystal packing pattern. Gasses are rocking around in the atmosphere taking up space.

If you changed a rock into a gas, the volume of gas given off would be huge compared to the volume of rock. So the change in pressure and volume is determined basically by the gas, not the rock.

I honestly don't remember why this came up... but it was in response to one of the comments above.

 

[Radamanthys]

It's pretty simple. Solids don't shrink very much when you take bits out of them (that's not strictly true - but I'm going to hold onto it for this discussion).

For example, take some copper sulfate crystals. Measure their size. Heat them, until they distinctly change colour (there'll be water driven off), and then re-measure their dimensions.

They won't have shrunk considerably.

The reason for this is because rocks have a defined structure based on their crystal packing pattern. Gasses are rocking around in the atmosphere taking up space.

If you changed a rock into a gas, the volume of gas given off would be huge compared to the volume of rock. So the change in pressure and volume is determined basically by the gas, not the rock.

I honestly don't remember why this came up... but it was in response to one of the comments above.

Yeah, i understood that... But i can't see where this goes on this discussion lol

 

[scar is my t]

it would be so awesome to make huge t's!!!! i would make me an army of t's the size of houses that would feed on congress!!!!!! they would wear oxygen masks but it would be awesome to see congress screaming for mercy as 4 foot fangs are stabed into there stomachs!!!!11