Latrodectus bishopi pattern variation

[ScorpDemon]

I have several females of the species, one of them has a completely black abdomen, no markings at all except on the belly it has the red dot. Anyone else seen this?

I've seen pattern variations with mactans, but never with bishopi, but my experience with bishopi is limited too, and theres mactans everywhere here. I'm sure others have seen this, just curious if anyone has ever tried selective breeding with the specimens with unique patterns.

Chris

 

[buthus]

I have several females of the species, one of them has a completely black abdomen, no markings at all except on the belly it has the red dot. Anyone else seen this?

I've seen pattern variations with mactans, but never with bishopi, but my experience with bishopi is limited too, and theres mactans everywhere here. I'm sure others have seen this, just curious if anyone has ever tried selective breeding with the specimens with unique patterns.

Chris

We gotta see a pic of that girl.

 

[Savvo]

Yea... I didnt think it was possible to get a black bishopi. Would love to see some pictures.

 

[ScorpDemon]

I'll see what I can do as far as pics go.

Her legs are normal color, but the abdomen is solid black with the exception of the half moon'ish marking on the ventral side that all the others have. I just thought it was unique, the mactans I have seen with abnormal patterns, had extra markings, the bishopi's abnormality is lack of markings.

 

[spydrhunter1]

pics please!

 

[buthus]

I'll see what I can do as far as pics go.

Her legs are normal color, but the abdomen is solid black with the exception of the half moon'ish marking on the ventral side that all the others have. I just thought it was unique, the mactans I have seen with abnormal patterns, had extra markings, the bishopi's abnormality is lack of markings.

You serious about breeding it for possible siblings like her?

Variants are "subcommon" And seem to happen with any female no matter if she held those traits or not. Furthermore from what I can see, the weakening and strengthening of patterns is probably the easiest for nature to play with. Control via "selective breeding" MAY be doable if that individual is more prone to produce some young like herself. Im talking about a larger percentage of an already small number bound to be produced by ANY individual. Another thing to consider is that ANY of her siblings, even those that have retained all their markings may be just as prone to produce "extreme" variants.

I have played with this a bit with hesperus but not with the sling numbers that I would like to ...if you dont raise a high percentage of the slings you can easily miss that bit higher percentage of a not so common occurrence. You can end up missing even the one or few gems that could have been and conclude that the pairing led to nothing but a neutral outcome. The rub is that it can trick you the other way round. You can end up with good number of siblings that look like mommy from one sac but few or none from other broods.
With all said, Ive had some interesting and hopeful results. Most exiting and promising (to me ) is from a WCG hesperus that has but a distant blurry hint of what should be an hourglass. Its pretty much a 0 hrglass hesp as close as you're probably going to get. (? :? ) Male is unknown, but aside from pairing her with a male from another unrelated 0 hrglass female, a male from her area, most likely related (good chance sibling) would be my next choice selection. She produced many young, but time/work forced me to allow far to much natural reduction for my liking. First group to reach maturity ended up being 30-40 count with at least 50% male. Methods and timing for each group were not at all consistent nor documented, this is slip and slide not science. Second group are all subs at the moment. Third group is but a few ...3-4 instar and 4th group is a small group (not-counted as of yet) slings. From the 15-20 first group females over half had split hourglasses. 3 or 4 caught my eye as more extreme. 2 I have mated already. These two have the most extreme split, with one having an hourglass more like that of some S.American species ..(sort of). A sub group just matured (5 or 6 that Im adding to group one) non beat the two I have already mated except for one ...the gem and only true ultimate result... 0 hourglass just like mommy! Made me happy go lucky when I pulled her out for a looksy. I have 2 sub-adult sibling males ...perfect. Now again, as I (maybe too boldly) stated above, any of her siblings MAY be/probably are just as prone to produce offspring with the desired mutation, but so far it is but her and a couple of her sisters that I want to keep, thus those are the ones I'll mate. And with plenty of sarcasm and a bit more hope, label my intentions "selectively breeding the hourglass out of a line of hesperus".
I have a couple other lines with other traits and I have seen some hopeful results. Mostly neutral results with hints of eureka.

Go for it ...do it for the hobby man! ...
Other opinions please chime in.
1. Use a sibling male. IMO, if you have a choice, go for a mid-large, healthy (spunky) male. Markings on the male may or may not mean jack and Im sure the debate could be interesting.

2. Go for HIGH survival numbers. This probably means passing out groups of slings to those interested in the results and experienced enough and able to baby the number of slings they take on. Volunteers come from those that desire something like bishopi, reliability, on the other hand comes from something else. :?

3. If it can be handled, create a parallel test group or two. Pairing one or two siblings with sibling males. Again raising high numbers may reveal a line that is already on its way to be more prone to produce your "dark mistress wearing red leather pants" strain/phase.

4. Before any of above, find out if anyone else has another female like yours, and/or offspring thereof.


Could be an interesting breeding project to watch. And, Im sure there are at least a few people around that would be interested in helping ...with noble/serious intentions.

 

[UrbanJungles]

I think there should be a new rule. You are not allowed to talk about cool Latrodectus variants without pictures.

 

[ScorpDemon]

I'll try to get pics tonight or tomorrow.

Good points buthus, however there is a problem with finding a sibling male, all I have left from the sac is 5 females. I bred one male with a mature female that I had, and she died 2 weeks later. I bought the sac that the unique female came from, from Jordan, he is no longer keeping widows. So I may have to go with a random male and hope for the best. I might mention that she is the only female from that sac that has no pattern, there is one other female that has darker red in her pattern also, but I'm sure thats more common.
If I am able to come across a male for this girl, are there any experienced widow keepers with sling raising experience that would be willing to raise some of them for me? I won't be able to raise them all myself, and would prefer to cut the number of losses as much as possible to see if this trait will breed true.
I will be breeding as many as 5 females from the same sac as the "dark mistress wearing red leather pants" as buthus has called her, if I can find enough males.

 

[UrbanJungles]

I have previous expereince with various species and would love to help, so would others I'm sure. Perhaps a few peole should raise up a few slings each to ensure best chances and then combine the matured animals for a breeding effort? A LatroBank of sorts!. I'd be willing to contribute some slings to this as well in exchange for new blood.

 

[ScorpDemon]

I have previous expereince with various species and would love to help, so would others I'm sure. Perhaps a few peole should raise up a few slings each to ensure best chances and then combine the matured animals for a breeding effort? A LatroBank of sorts!. I'd be willing to contribute some slings to this as well in exchange for new blood.

If I can locate a male/males and get a sac from the unique lady, I'll take you up on the new blood offer. and if the black abdomen breeds true I'll make sure you get one.

 

[buthus]

ScorpDemon are your females (esp the Mistress) mature? Bishopi can surprise you.
If you want, PM me with your info and I can send you a male or two ...mix of the two lines (individuals) that Jordan and the super secret crimson league collected. These boyz are few here, so I would need to know where your fems are at exactly to know who best to send on the mission. Also, I will want them back, so try not to get them killed. ..

If this is a doable option for you, PM me and we can discuss details.

 

[ScorpDemon]

Pics are in. It's the best I could do, no chance of a ventral shot with this girl. The photos have been edited only for brightness and some cropping, what you see is what I see when I look at her.

 

[buthus]

Wow :clap: ...make some more of those ...or sell me that one!

 

[spydrhunter1]

Cool...make some more like that and I'll take a few!!

 

[ScorpDemon]

I'm gonna do my best, I have located males from the same source as this girl, and will be breeding her and 4 of her sac sisters and trying to raise as many as I can, and locating some people to raise some of the others, to see if it will breed true in some of the offspring.

 

[UrbanJungles]

Oh man, that is soooooo sweet!!!!!!!!
I want some too!

 

[Rizzolo]

the bishopi with the all-black abdomen reminds me of what has happened with my bishopi stock.

here is the mother of all my bishopi babies. I mated her with her sibling (both from Jordan) and produced lots of spiderlings.

as you can see, she has very little white around her red spots. there is a little more on the anterior abdomen.

ALL of her offspring (those that i raised to maturity) have NO white around the red spots. the abdomen is mostly black with small red spots, and no white marks at all. i mated some of the second generation (to siblings from different sacs), but have no egg sacs yet.

i was stunned at how quickly the pattern could change. i am interested to see where this ends up with repeated in breeding.

i will try to follow up with some photos of the second generation.

 

[ScorpDemon]

the bishopi with the all-black abdomen reminds me of what has happened with my bishopi stock.

here is the mother of all my bishopi babies. I mated her with her sibling (both from Jordan) and produced lots of spiderlings.

as you can see, she has very little white around her red spots. there is a little more on the anterior abdomen.

ALL of her offspring (those that i raised to maturity) have NO white around the red spots. the abdomen is mostly black with small red spots, and no white marks at all. i mated some of the second generation (to siblings from different sacs), but have no egg sacs yet.

i was stunned at how quickly the pattern could change. i am interested to see where this ends up with repeated in breeding.

i will try to follow up with some photos of the second generation.

well that's interesting, I'm excited to see the outcome and to see if the patternless thing will breed true in the offspring of my female as well. I think she has mated with the male that's living with her now, but only time will tell.

Chris

 

[spydrhunter1]

the bishopi with the all-black abdomen reminds me of what has happened with my bishopi stock.

here is the mother of all my bishopi babies. I mated her with her sibling (both from Jordan) and produced lots of spiderlings.

as you can see, she has very little white around her red spots. there is a little more on the anterior abdomen.

ALL of her offspring (those that i raised to maturity) have NO white around the red spots. the abdomen is mostly black with small red spots, and no white marks at all. i mated some of the second generation (to siblings from different sacs), but have no egg sacs yet.

i was stunned at how quickly the pattern could change. i am interested to see where this ends up with repeated in breeding.

i will try to follow up with some photos of the second generation.

I have a female out of Jordan's line that has the same red spots lacking the white rings. The abdomen is also not black but closer to a muddy brown. Scorpdemon...glad to hear the little guy has been busy.