ideas about mycosis

[jmb]

I'll respond with a more complete exegesis on this topic shortly...

...But for now, I'm going to leave everyone reading this with a few thoughts.

If you have any questions about just how spectacularly well fungi can spread, I can only direct people to do a few Internet searches; look specifically for (say) Cordyceps and anything in the Order 'Hypocreales' -- or just search using the terms:


entomopathogenic fungal culture


..And that should get you to ARSEF's stuff quickly enough, not to mention papers from the Society for Invertebrate Pathology (http://www.sipweb.org). Any number of their members in the division devoted to Fungal Pathogens of Invertebrates have written plenty of papers on the subject which should answer the questions posed here.

If for whatever reason you can't find what you need to clear up any & all misconceptions (some of the stuff is member-restricted, I think), then I'll be happy to provide the appropriate citations, as I am a member, and have the papers/newsletters/etcetera.

To quote from an elementary laboratory worker's handbook, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS 'MOSTLY' STERILE", and on this, Rasputin is correct: the temps and pressures cited above are adequate to render medical and/or laboratory equipment sterile.

[N.B.: The below is not in reference, necessarily, to various Entomopathogeni fungi, but fungal spores in *general*, as there are a variety of species which do this -- more than I know of offhand.]

When it comes to various substrates, however, there is a reason why (speaking from a mycological standpoint) various media and substrates are 'pre-soaked' for a day prior to autoclaving, as -- I kid you not -- mere autoclaving is inadequate to destroy certain (many) spores, and one has to force them to 'open up' (as it were) because only then are they vulnerable, so while being in what they 'view' as environmentally hostile conditions, including lack of hydration, temperature extremes, etcetera, they lie dormant, virtually impervious, in a spore state. Once soaked in water and left at circa 72 degrees F for 24 hours or so, they 'come out of their shell', and as it takes more energy to re-form themselves into their previously near-impervious form (and they need longer than a day at that temperature to gather the necessary nutrients to do so), they are then pervious, and autoclaving is adequate to dispatch them.

There is a reason why Chloramphenicol is used in PDA slants & petri dishes; while fungicidal (for a very few fungi) and bacteriostatic at the very least, it's what I have & use, and the industry standard (AFAIK) for culturing fungi, while helping keep bacterial candidates out (including when one is doing a 'field' sampling/culture, as successfully culturing XYZ in a petri dish of PDA w/Chloramphenicol is generally indicative of a Fungus, not a Bacteria, Gram +/-.

Rendering surgical steel sterile is, in contrast, easily done: rendering virtually any porous substrate sterile is relatively difficult, in contrast, as the temperatures needed to destroy certain spores/endospore-forming microbial lifeforms is, all things considered, generally high enough to carbonize the material in question....Which defeats the purpose, I'd wager.

The amount of Gamma radiation which is used for (say) a #24 scalpel blade would be inadequate for coco coir, believe it or not (I am sure there will be doubters, and for those uninterested in doing research themselves, I'll be posting the info and appropriate citations & links later on, including links & whatever PDF's I can publish on the website w/o violating copyright.

More later,



~JMB


~JMB

 

[Galapoheros]

OK that's interesting stuff. I "generally" understand the scientific facts you listed. So applying your knowledge to substrate hobbyists use, let's say, hypothetically, that one did sterilize substrate in a terrarium. It's obvious to me(though I know I could be wrong) that, in a practical sense and as it applies to the hobby and as far as bacteria and fungi go, even if a substrate could be sterilized, the hobbyist's cage is immediately exposed to bacteria and fungi spores in our homes the moment the substrate comes in contact with the air in our homes. If it's kept clean of dead prey parts and not too wet, why even bake it if you keep the cage clean so that the fungi doesn't breech the resistance point of growth on a scorpion? Baking might get rid of mites or other unwanted organisms like that but, for bacteria and for fungi that cause mycosis, ...I don't think it's worth it, but I'm all ears. Anyway, Thanks! I'm sure everybody here appreciates the info. I like fungi, esp. the edible ones .

 

[rasputin]

J, I really want to see this substrate you've been working on. I'll hit you up later on that.

It's obvious to me(though I know I could be wrong) that, in a practical sense and as it applies to the hobby and as far as bacteria and fungi go, even if a substrate could be sterilized, the hobbyist's cage is immediately exposed to bacteria and fungi spores in our homes the moment the substrate comes in contact with the air in our homes. If it's kept clean of dead prey parts and not too wet, why even bake it if you keep the cage clean so that the fungi doesn't breech the resistance point of growth on a scorpion? Baking might get rid of mites or other unwanted organisms like that but, for bacteria and for fungi that cause mycosis, ...I don't think it's worth it, but I'm all ears.

you are right, there's spores and bacteria constantly in flow in the air we breathe and items we touch. you bring up a good question about baking the substrate - do you brush your teeth, shower, clean your kitchen and bathroom? baking the substrate is no more a task in vane then cleaning the home or self (if you don't want bacteria harmful to your mouth to survive then you clean it and naturally the kitchen and bathroom are great pathogen hosts if not maintained and they need to be in constant maintenance.). if the substreate isn't worn out then there is no sense in tossing it out.

 

[magikscorps]

Ras ....This is what we were waiting for ,,,,,,,,,,,,,more in the morning,,,,,,,,,,I have more research to do my self .............But we all need to see the problem ,,,and do the work,,,,,,,,,,and stop being so close minded,,,,,most of the boards did not even bother to respond for two days now,,,,,,,,,,,,,If this is not effecting anyone else ,,,,,let us know,,,,,,Its much bigger than we think,,,,:wall: and I don't care if you like it ,,,,,,,,we are going to figure this out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Its NOT about who's right or wrong,,,,,,,,,,

 

[jmb]

I'm still REALLY short on time....

Yes, SubGenius Time Addiction [tm] strikes again! And again! And -- oh, never mind....

J, I really want to see this substrate you've been working on. I'll hit you up later on that.

Definitely -- I'll put some aside for you. As I'm at a bit of an impasse as to what or how to price it (realistically, considering I'm doing small-scale/non-industrial-scale processing of it, to price it just to where I would break even would make for it being pricey stuff, and heaven's forbid, if I were to add my *time* to that, well, that would put it far beyond the range of most anyone), I'm not selling it, per se, and am happy to give it away to those who it might benefit. I suppose it's fair to ask people to pay for shipping (as it doesn't have to go out overnight, and doesn't weigh much at all, it shouldn't be exorbitant - like a few bucks or so), as I'm generous...To a point

you are right, there's spores and bacteria constantly in flow in the air we breathe and items we touch. you bring up a good question about baking the substrate - do you brush your teeth, shower, clean your kitchen and bathroom? baking the substrate is no more a task in vane then cleaning the home or self (if you don't want bacteria harmful to your mouth to survive then you clean it and naturally the kitchen and bathroom are great pathogen hosts if not maintained and they need to be in constant maintenance.).

I agree with the majority of the above -- you are essentially correct -- and my only real disagreement is that, considering the cost of new substrate, and considering the veritably UNHOLY tenacity of fungi (and the near-indestructibility of fungal spores), just from a bottom-line perspective, I'd think it cheaper to just ditch the old & put in some new, rather than doing a pre-soak and then autoclaving the old substrate (I mean in a "ghetto" sense -- and no, I'm not disparaging that at ALL -- I'm massively into Ghetto/DIY stuff, believe me) via the proper use of a home-appliance-like pressure-cooker (found in Walfart's, T@rget, etcetera etcetera); both are viable solutions, however if one doesn't already have a pressure-cooker (IIRC, they run something like $40-60, or thereabouts), isn't it just cheaper to pay the ~$4 (or so) for more substrate? As even with the best-kept tanks, detritus would tend to build up over time, it seems like it would make more sense to just use more, and it isn't like one is disposing of something which is a legacy toxin, as it is biodegradable, correct?

And, again, autoclaving or in any other way sterilizing the substrate brings you right back to square one: the second you introduce it into the Real World environs, unless you LIVE inside a laminar flow hood, it's going to get violated more repeatedly than Master Shake stuck in a SuperMax Penitentiary ("I can't go to jail! I'm too beautiful! They'll tear me up on the inside!" -- sorry, bad ATHF reference), although by the omnipresent germs/microbes/spores.

[N.B.: Microwaving does NOT sterilize substrate -- even hundreds of watts of juice at 10.525Ghz, while enough to denature the proteins in your eyes if given the chance, isn't going to do p00 to spores, and even some other microbial nasties, believe it or not.]

I would tend to say, in the case of ordinary substrate, the occasional refresh of it (id est, discarding the old, cleaning out the enclosure with the appropriate sanitizer, and using the new) will, at the very least, Do No Harm.

Of course, this brings us back to the notion of having a substrate treated in such a way that it is microbe-hostile, and inedible to fungal and bacterial pathogens; that way, as many microbial nasties can alight upon it as they will: reproducing/colonizing further poses a problem for them, so even though it is non-sterile (as the rest of the world is, I mean), at least it doesn't make for much of a safe haven for them to be fruitful & multiply.

More later,


~J

 

[clearlysaid]

I just noticed this thread. I've already talked to Isaac about my opinions but I will post them here...

Mycosis is a fungal infection, correct? That's my understanding of it. And as far as my understanding goes fungal infections are contagious. A type of mycosis found in humans is athlete's foot.... tell me that's not contagious. But, not everyone who has walked around in a locker room or public shower without sandals gets it. I guess that could be applied to scorpions. Just because a scorpion doesn't get it from its cagemate doesn't mean it can't or won't.

I dunno what the type of mycosis is found in scorpions, but seeing as it is a fungal infection it would be contagious.

And as far as your comment, Ras, about humans being more susceptible to mycosis, I don't disagree and while I dunno if humans could get the type of mycosis scorpions carry, again, I'm with Isaac... stranger things have happened. Have you seen that video of a guy that got his face eaten away by bread mold? Bread mold, man.

 

[rasputin]

Mycosis is a fungal infection, correct? That's my understanding of it. And as far as my understanding goes fungal infections are contagious. A type of mycosis found in humans is athlete's foot.... tell me that's not contagious. But, not everyone who has walked around in a locker room or public shower without sandals gets it. I guess that could be applied to scorpions. Just because a scorpion doesn't get it from its cagemate doesn't mean it can't or won't.

Bell, I know what Isaac is getting at.

Like myself and others have stated, none of us have had this happen. Take the real world statements of "I haven't had that happen" and put them up against the statements of "I haven't tried out my theory but it can happen" and the evidence defeats the theory.

Sure humans can spread fungal infections between one another but this would not be the same for scorpions because for a pathogen to spread there needs to be vectors.

Given this thread has turned to substrates - let's say the substrate is going to be the outlet by which it spreads from one scorpion to another. If you have a substrate that is going to resist the spores then the chance of spreading the spores from one scorp to another is greatly reduced if not made null.

One must consider that the exoskeleton of a scorpion is a stronger barrier than human flesh and therefore more resistant to bacterial and fungal pathogens that would spread quite efficiently between humans.

 

[Galapoheros]

"I agree with the majority of the above -- you are essentially correct -- and my only real disagreement is that, considering the cost of new substrate, and considering the veritably UNHOLY tenacity of fungi (and the near-indestructibility of fungal spores), just from a bottom-line perspective, I'd think it cheaper to just ditch the old & put in some new, rather than doing a pre-soak and then autoclaving the old substrate"

This sounds like the most practical thing to do IMO. I've had year old sub, kept it clean enough and so haven't had any problems so far, that I can tell anyway ..since my inverts can't talk. But lets say you did come up with a sub that had something in it that would be something comparable to a pre-emergent some people put on their lawns to stop seed from germinating, in this case, stop spores from germinating like it sounds like you're working on. Hey I just had an idea, why not come up with something you can sell and only "add" to the substrate that comes in a small bottle or something like that, instead of selling bulky substrate. Has that already been mentioned? How about diluted Tolnaftate, the active ingredient in Tinactin? Does it kill most fungi? Is it toxic to inverts? If not you could just add it too the sub. As far as the topic in the original thread goes, It's just that if the spores are everywhere anyway, I don't see that topic going very far by itself, maybe a diff should've been started but, oh well.

 

[clearlysaid]

Given this thread has turned to substrates - let's say the substrate is going to be the outlet by which it spreads from one scorpion to another. If you have a substrate that is going to resist the spores then the chance of spreading the spores from one scorp to another is greatly reduced if not made null.

One must consider that the exoskeleton of a scorpion is a stronger barrier than human flesh and therefore more resistant to bacterial and fungal pathogens that would spread quite efficiently between humans.

Substrate resistant to spores? I must've missed this... why is your substrate resistant to spores?

I guess my concern would be that mycosis is spread by contact. First off, soil, hides, plants, etc... whatever you have in with your scorp can have many vectors through which mycosis can be passed, be it organisms living in/on droppings, hairs, human skin cells and other organic matter. You have some poo or cricket guts you didn't notice left over on a hide of a scorp that died of mycosis and then you put the hide in with a new scorpion... that scorpion touches the leftover organic matter... would it have any chance of a mycosis infecting it? And then, in a communal scorp set up isn't it common place for scorps to touch? I would think that would increase chances of mycosis spreading.

And while the exoskeleton is a great barrier it's my understanding that the reason many cases of mycosis end in death is due to suffocation from the fungus infection getting into the book lungs. I haven't heard anything more than loss of limbs (due to rot or being thrown, I guess) being a result of mycosis on the exoskeleton.

I dunno... we all will take care of our animals in our own ways and what ever works, works... I for one threw out everything and disinfected the aquarium as best I could after my scorp died of mycosis... just to try to be as safe as possible, I guess. I don't mind putting in the extra work and spending an additional $4 on substrate.

 

[rasputin]

Bell, the spread of mycosis can be stopped in a scorpion infected - the catch is that damaged tissue is damaged tissue.

Mycosis is not a contact disease like hpv, where the slightest contact causes it to spread to a new victim. If mycosis were a contact disease then all scorpions would have mycosis because there's nobody to change their substrate and sanitize the wilderness which they come from.

 

[Galapoheros]

Would it be ridiculous to say mycosis spores are probably on all tropical scorpions anyway? I'd like to hear the answer to that from someone that prob knows. What do you think about that jmb? Out in the wild they pick their ideal spot. If it's too wet in their hide they move to the entrance where there is more airflow, a place that is more humid, more dry, warmer, cooler, organisms are there that break down waste and rotting things, and so many other things I don't know to mention. There is a natural balance of fungi and bacteria too, I read bacteria help keep mycosis fungi in check. Is that one of your ingredients jmb? ...beneficial bacteria? This is what I meant by killing a lot of bacteria by trying to sterilize, it seems it would cause a fungus outbreak quicker since there wouldn't be as much bacteria after attempting to sterilize. But I know nothing of bacteria/fungi growth and ratios that would make a difference so that's just a bunch of noise ...and I can't open that siderweb.org link. Personally, I've gone the other direction as far as sterilizing my cages go. I've got isopods, Rove Beetles, and beneficial mites running around. There seems to be a balance going on in my cages, I haven't had big problems in 3 years now since I got back in the hobby but I'm watching this thread anyway, you never know, I try to keep an open mind about everything.

 

[rasputin]

Would it be ridiculous to say mycosis spores are probably on all tropical scorpions anyway?

I wouldn't doubt it

 

[jmb]

Sorry for the tardy reply...

...But life has been a bit more hectic lately than usual.

Substrate resistant to spores? I must've missed this... why is your substrate resistant to spores?

Because I use a small amount of a stock formula (consisting of hydrophobic parabens, with propylene glycol and ETOH as the final surfactant) which is then added a few mL's per liter, to the water which I then use to 'reconstitute' coco coir/bedabeast/whatever. The ethanol is the only toxic component, and is the first to evaporate off (put some vodka on a plate & leave it in a laminar flow hood if curious )

The process is laborious, time-consuming, and a PITA, although the chemicals themselves are cheap (the non-denatured ethanol is the most expensive, but even that isn't that costly, compared to the preparation of it time-wise)...Hence, I've only been making enough for myself and my wife (who has about Avogadro's number worth of Tarantulas, most/many of them high-humidity ones), and have tested it out thoroughly for some time, now. The stuff is so non-toxic that Springtails (Folsomia candida) and the like can live in it w/o a problem, and once completed, the bedabeast (or cork bark, wood, whatever) which has been treated is, at least for the time being, if not entirely a non-food-item for fungi, certainly one HELL of a lot less appetizing, as I've failed to culture any fungus (from active cultures) in the treated stuff to date (but am hoping someone will manage to, as the formula has room to evolve, as it were).

I guess my concern would be that mycosis is spread by contact. First off, soil, hides, plants, etc... whatever you have in with your scorp can have many vectors through which mycosis can be passed, be it organisms living in/on droppings, hairs, human skin cells and other organic matter. You have some poo or cricket guts you didn't notice left over on a hide of a scorp that died of mycosis and then you put the hide in with a new scorpion... that scorpion touches the leftover organic matter... would it have any chance of a mycosis infecting it?

Yep. The stuff is as contagious as leprosy (was once believed to be -- in actuality, the vector of Hansen's disease was, last I checked, still of dubious etiology): and, contrary to popular belief, there *IS* no such thing as 'Black spot mycosis' -- the melanization which occurs is due to the pro-phenyloxidase cascade (with melanin being the end result of the immunodefensive response).

As for the durability of scorpion cuticle, I'm the first to point out that they've been around longer than us, and will be first or second to dance on our graves when we're gone (they'll have to arm-wrestle the roaches for the privilege, no doubt)...That does not, however, change the fact that entomopathogenic fungi, depending upon the species (and there are a great number of them, spanning not only disparate genera but across different orders as well), use mechanical pressure, enzymatic attacks, or both, to penetrate the cuticle and make it into the haemocel.

Once this has occurred, truly entomopathogenic fungi begin the 'yeast' phase, some of which release invert-deadly mycotoxins (destruxins) during the fissioning period; for those which are not as swiftly lethal (generally opportunistic and/or entomogenous fungi) the rapid dividing is used to colonize the host and/or overwhelm the immune system by pure force of numbers. Regardless of the nature, however, the fact is, once the cuticle has been penetrated -- and there are visible 'black spot(s)' -- it is already systemic...And, without a viable, invertebrate safe systemic fungicide, there is no treatment.

Some hope lies in keeping the host healthy enough to at least render their haemolymph fungistatic (i.e., halt the progression, but not reverse it). Once stetted, provided no destruxins are being produced, at least in theory, they should be able to continue existing as usual...If they fall prey to any other pathogen/stress/whatever, however, they're back on the Pathogen's Path which is, of course, death.

I've been doing as much research as time has allowed, and while I've already come across a number of potent and invertebrate-safe antimycotics (e.g., 3,4-Dihydro-8-hydroxy-3-methylisocoumarin, CAS# 480-33-1, was the most obvious and promising one, however, as it is not currently in any real level of production on a scale which renders it affordable even to most DVM's -- much less the hobbyist keeper -- that and the other methyl*coumarins are, it seems, not the answer), but I don't think it's terribly practical to think people are up to paying for things which cost hundreds to thousands of dollars for a treatment regimen ;\

Not that we don't have a whole HOST of antifungal drugs -- we do. The problem is not a lack of them, the problem is llack of appropriate *ecotoxicity data* on them -- IOW, while pesticides are tested and have to meet certain requirements (just as agricultural-level fungicides/antifungals do as well, fungicides covered under the same section of codes & regulations as pesticides), the effect of (say) Tolnaftate on invertebrates is not precisely something one can find at the nearest decent Medical library...And note that if I avoid rush-hour traffic, NIH's library is a short drive away (admittedly, I prefer accessing things electronically, of course), so I'm not short on access to information; what we seem to be short on are documented levels of particular antimycotics which are safe for terrestrial invertebrates.

And then, in a communal scorp set up isn't it common place for scorps to touch? I would think that would increase chances of mycosis spreading.

It spreads even more easily than that: I'm not up to giving citations from the literature on Invertebrate Pathology on-hand, but suffice to say that, while HIGHLY variable, depending upon the nature and manner of the fungus itself, spores consumed (even of non-entomopathogenic fungi) can and usually do, eventually, kill the host, generally due to the growth of the mycelial mass in the gut until it finally 'starves' the host by reducing surface area for nutrient absorption; the same for those inhaled: the mycelial mass grows until, finally, the area to take in oxygen is finally reduced to the point where it weakens and dies.

Again, that is in regards to those fungi which are NOT obligate pathogens of invertebrates. Those which *are*, of course, demolish the host MUCH faster (and are more virulent and vector-friendly than the others, being able to attack directly through the exoskeleton).

And while the exoskeleton is a great barrier it's my understanding that the reason many cases of mycosis end in death is due to suffocation from the fungus infection getting into the book lungs. I haven't heard anything more than loss of limbs (due to rot or being thrown, I guess) being a result of mycosis on the exoskeleton.

Vide supra.

I dunno... we all will take care of our animals in our own ways and what ever works, works... I for one threw out everything and disinfected the aquarium as best I could after my scorp died of mycosis... just to try to be as safe as possible, I guess. I don't mind putting in the extra work and spending an additional $4 on substrate.

Sterilization of fixtures (e.g., glass aquaria and the like) and discarding the rest is what I'd advise. If it sounds extreme, well, read the most recent article about Tarantula deaths from mushrooms growing in their substrate in the ATS's journal -- although that's not about mycosis at all, per se, but rather Gamma amatoxin poisoning (yes, Amatoxins are not just hard on us, but quite deadly towards most any carbon-based life...Mmm...Cyclic Peptides....Of Doom....).

Regards,


~JMB