I tried to drive a spider insane, once (over handling)

[Fran]

I like ones I can do with a short answer. lol.

That one is simple we do it to learn.

If we had no want to learn, and enjoy it (human emotions egad) we would not have the thrive to do a study to finaly shut this arguement up of the effects of handling on a tarantula, which I expect to be minimal, to determental. honestly, but without the want to find out, we never will.

At least, I can speak for myself, when it came to handling tarantulas; I did so to do behavioral studies, so I could easier work with them as a breeder/ and arachnocologist, I usualy have a handling phase with all new creatures I encounter so I can better judge them their movements and reactions for things like tank maitanance and the like.

generaly curiosity is the largest drive in people, IMO.

ninja editing: I could go into the entire debate of Perception reality and all of our known views as some form a type of placing anthropomorphizing; but it would never bring an end to this; and is picking at symantics.

((sorry I usualy post before my entire thought is out and then edit things on after re-reading it.))

You dont know if after handling a lot SOMETHING happen.

The fact that they dont DIE right away does not mean is not detrimental.

 

[flamesbane]

I like ones I can do with a short answer. lol.

That one is simple we do it to learn.

If we had no want to learn, and enjoy it (human emotions egad) we would not have the thrive to do a study to finaly shut this arguement up of the effects of handling on a tarantula, which I expect to be minimal, to determental. honestly, but without the want to find out, we never will.

At least, I can speak for myself, when it came to handling tarantulas; I did so to do behavioral studies, so I could easier work with them as a breeder/ and arachnocologist, I usualy have a handling phase with all new creatures I encounter so I can better judge them their movements and reactions for things like tank maitanance and the like.

generaly curiosity is the largest drive in people, IMO.

So even though you know that handling could be detrimental, you do it anyway? My whole point here is that you are fully admitting that all your reasons for handling the tarantula derive from your desires and not for any sense of your tarantula's well being (just like everyone else in this thread).

While I understand what you are saying about wanting to learn about their behavior anything you learn about a tarantula's behavior while handling is worthless from a scientific standpoint because you are in a completely uncontrolled and unnatural environment.

It is worthless from a keeper's standpoint because tarantulas often react different to handling in unexpected and often dangerous ways.

 

[Malhavoc's]

You dont know if after handling a lot SOMETHING happen.

The fact that they dont DIE right away does not mean is not detrimental.

True, which is why keeping records is important, why large volume of spiders are needed for accurate results, but again, the fact that none have died to anything that could be closely related to handling (or 'unkowns, most deaths were to old age, a heat wave one year, and a few wcs that died of parasites; yet to loose any to bad molts so I can even calculate that), I can say within a good guestimate that perhaps 30%? chance of minimal effect upon the tarantula regarding of species. however, I do not have hundreds of tarantulas, I had a small amount of breeding stock, and only was able to be observent of 2 generations worth, so no I can not say 100% that nothing will happen. but I can say within good reason, that the chances of something happening to the tarantula is minimal.

this however is again, personal extrapolation of my experiance as a keeper, breeder, and study enthusiast of arachnids. and by no means the law, just my contrabution.

To Flame:
worthless if I was curious over the naturual behavior of a tarantula, which I was not, I was intrested in learning directly their reaction to us, So that I may provide better husbandry and care in the case of escape tank maintance etc, Yes. I did this on a personal choice of want, knowing there is a chance that my tarantula may suffer, but one must remember if we truely wished the tarantula to be naturual unstressed and unchanged from its naturual condition, we would never have removed it from its place of residence to a small box upon our shelves.

I never argued if handling was good or not, Merely wished to point out the effects I observed from it. as I stated, I do not sit on either side of the fence on this one, I can see both viewpoints clearly. and openly stated: I handle tarantulas of new sp, all spiders mostly so I can learn of their interaction with us, or more specificly myself so I can "handle" them better if need arises, and I have a distinct understanding of a tarantulas " threatend" behavior so to speak. I survayed the reactions of tarantulas in previous gestures of this, and found the chances as I said most likely minimal, and within the risk acceptability to learn how to handle say, a OBT, which can be prone to escape, rather then possibly damaging the spider or recieving injury to myself by failing to recognize the behavioral pattern of it.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Flamesbane, Fran and who ever else in that camp: if you're so extremely concerned about the health of your spiders, so much so that a handling debate gets you wired up enough to get into this level of kindergarten back and forth, then I suggest to you that you relinquish all your pets to someone who will ship them back to their native habitats and releases them! Because in that case who knows if *keeping them* isn't detrimental to their health?!

The level at which you are arguing here is totally ridiculous!

Do you just want to "win" the debate or do you actually have anything constructive to say? If you have something constructive to say then out with it. And just saying "read a book" or "ask a scientist" isn't enough if you ask the other side to do the same for *you*! Seriously, where are we here?? :wall:

 

[Fran]

Flamesbane, Fran and who ever else in that camp: if you're so extremely concerned about the health of your spiders, so much so that a handling debate gets you wired up enough to get into this level of kindergarten back and forth, then I suggest to you that you relinquish all your pets to someone who will ship them back to their native habitats and releases them! Because in that case who knows if *keeping them* isn't detrimental to their health?!

The level at which you are arguing here is totally ridiculous!

Do you just want to "win" the debate or do you actually have anything constructive to say? If you have something constructive to say then out with it. And just saying "read a book" or "ask a scientist" isn't enough if you ask the other side to do the same for *you*! Seriously, where are we here?? :wall:

You are out of line.

We are debating on the subject, with debating comes knowledge. If you do not wish to participate dont do it.
Shutting people up is even more stupid, if you ask me.
The statement you provided while somewhat logical (very obvious, mind you) was not realistic.
We are humans, we do thousands of things every day that are detrimental to the enviroment, yet we do it.
So yes, keeping spiders is not the ideal for them, but then again so the other 1000000 we do for our amusement and sake.
You might wanna stop using cars,hair spray,paint, tobacco, keeping pets, eating cows,using plastics...
Keeping them in a "close" natural enviroment is better than providing them with unnecessary risks and stress.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Wow +1

You're amazing Fran. :-/

 

[Fran]

Wow +1

You're amazing Fran. :-/

See, those are the posts that CERTAINLY DOESNT APPORT ANYTHING USEFUL to the thread .

 

[Cirith Ungol]

See, those are the posts that CERTAINLY DOESNT APPORT ANYTHING USEFUL to the thread .

Ah. Thank you for telling me.

 

[Mister Internet]

Admin note

I think everyone needs to grab their nearest handy dictionary and refresh themselves on the ACTUAL meanings of a few choice words... namely:

Fact
Opinion
Reason
Experience
Adaptation
Acclimation
Training
Enjoyment
Consciousness

Fran, I'm going to pick on you for a minute. You're a bully. I've never seen you in a thread like this where you didn't resort to calling people "stupid" or "idiots" almost immediately when they don't agree with you. This is not a tactic of someone whose reasoning is sound... if your observations on the discussion at hand have merit and make logical sense, then you don't need to add disparaging remarks to others to bolster your point... your astute observations will have made your point already. Feeling the near-constant need to put others down when they don't agree with you is the tactic of someone who feels like they don't have a defensible position, and are merely trying to shout the loudest and "win" that way.

Also, posting a PM publicly which someone had the decency to not post on a thread where it was inappropriate is the height of childishness. "So we can see whose opinion to respect"? Please sell that pile of turds somewhere else, I'm not buying it... you don't respect ANYONE'S opinion who disagrees with you, so I think telling others that you're merely assisting them in "respecting others' opinions" is disingenuous in the highest.

To everyone who feels compelled to use words like "Enjoy", "Likes", "Wants", or "Feeling" when talking about their bugs... I would strongly suggest you either consider different wording, or change your outlook on the true capabilities of these bugs based on their anatomy, physiology, and biochemical makeup. They are not robust enough for these types of abstract thought processes... it's not to say that they are not interacting with you, after a fashion, but they do not "like" things, nor can they "enjoy" handling... it's simply not possible given what we KNOW is required in higher brain structures to produce these sorts of thought centers. I think at the end of the day MOST people could agree that they can "mostly adapt to you over time"... but still, handling is something we do for US, not them. Please don't ever kid yourselves about it, it will cause you stress you don't need in your life.

I think the discussion was going along fine until a few felt the need to be abrasive. Hopefully that's been dealt with. But to those of you on the "other side", tarantulas, at the end of the day, are just bugs. If you really want to "interact" with a pet and KNOW it likes you, enjoys spending time with you, wants to please you, and can show genuine affection, get a dog.

Can we please all be adults now?

 

[Xian]

The tarantula keeping hobby began around the 80's.

I mark the publication of Dr. William J. Baerg's little book, The Tarantula in 1958 as the beginning of the tarantula keeping hobby.

I personally don't believe that handling or not handling Tarantulas has any more or less effect on them then keeping them captive in the first place.

 

[Fran]

Fran, I'm going to pick on you for a minute. You're a bully. I've never seen you in a thread like this where you didn't resort to calling people "stupid" or "idiots" almost immediately when they don't agree with you. This is not a tactic of someone whose reasoning is sound... if your observations on the discussion at hand have merit and make logical sense, then you don't need to add disparaging remarks to others to bolster your point... your astute observations will have made your point already. Feeling the near-constant need to put others down when they don't agree with you is the tactic of someone who feels like they don't have a defensible position, and are merely trying to shout the loudest and "win" that way.

Also, posting a PM publicly which someone had the decency to not post on a thread where it was inappropriate is the height of childishness. "So we can see whose opinion to respect"? Please sell that pile of turds somewhere else, I'm not buying it... you don't respect ANYONE'S opinion who disagrees with you, so I think telling others that you're merely assisting them in "respecting others' opinions" is disingenuous in the highest.

You call me a bully, which you have been repeating over and over the last months, and you come off yourself as a bully. Always giving lections to others.Never answering back when somehting is bring up to your attention on the matter,you just come here, give lections and leave.
You do come off as a bully. So I dont quite get what you mean with calling me a bully every single time.
You are CONSTANTLY picking on me on public, disregarding the rest of the people who uses the same type of statements or who is being a smart arse. You only focus on me.

Wheter you think I do or dont respect others opinions, its your opinion.

Im not selling any turds, so you dont need to buy anything, Mister I.

 

[Malhavoc's]

To everyone who feels compelled to use words like "Enjoy", "Likes", "Wants", or "Feeling" when talking about their bugs... I would strongly suggest you either consider different wording, or change your outlook on the true capabilities of these bugs based on their anatomy, physiology, and biochemical makeup. They are not robust enough for these types of abstract thought processes... it's not to say that they are not interacting with you, after a fashion, but they do not "like" things, nor can they "enjoy" handling... it's simply not possible given what we KNOW is required in higher brain structures to produce these sorts of thought centers. I think at the end of the day MOST people could agree that they can "mostly adapt to you over time"... but still, handling is something we do for US, not them. Please don't ever kid yourselves about it, it will cause you stress you don't need in your life.

with this in mind Mr I, and your experiance in tarantulas, have you documented any "overwhelming" or greviously ill effect to handling? if so do you have any record of how much handling VS the results?

As I explained in previous posts, within my collection I have never observed a large amount of response beyond the mild stress levels they would innatly recieve, they certianly seem adaptable, or at least tolerant of vibrations when constantly presented with them (such as a sterio tv, or footfalls) Mild agitation at handling (hair flicking, retreating, tell tail coiling to cover eyes) or general dissintrest (tarantula begins to either sit, or wander for whatever motivational cause)

I am not saying it is good for a tarantula, but am curious to the effects of it (hence joining the thread back on page 1!) In my collection I've found no lasting effects, or random death I can attribute to handling.

 

[Fran]

I personally don't believe that handling or not handling Tarantulas has any more or less effect on them then keeping them captive in the first place.

Im sure Torelli and all these people who studied tarantulas 150 years ago, had some of their own.
That doesnt mean the hobby as we see it today started then.
I guess I had to clarify that.
Anyway, that was only menctioned to shoow that in 30,40 or 50 years you cant get an arachnid domesticated, tamed or anything like that.

 

[NChromatus]

Learning

For anyone who's interested, here is a wikipedia article on learning that may help to define some terminology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning

Learning comes in many different forms. Much of the learning observed in tarantulas would be described as habituation or sensitization, but it is possible that they are also affected by classical conditioning. One example of this that some keepers may have observed is a tarantula coming out of its retreat (presumably looking for food) upon sensing the lid of its enclosure opening, having been conditioned (much like Pavlov's dogs) that food is coming when the lid opens.

I can't think of any good examples of operant conditioning for a tarantula, although the example above, I guess, could be characterized as that form of learning (with the lid opening as an antecedent, the coming out of the burrow behavior being positively reinforced with the food consequence). It may be beyond their capabilities. Much of this discussion is likely going as awry as it is because some people are trying to address operant learning, while others are discussing habituation, sensitization and classical conditioning.

 

[kylestl]

I think everyone needs to grab their nearest handy dictionary and refresh themselves on the ACTUAL meanings of a few choice words... namely:

Fact
Opinion
Reason
Experience
Adaptation
Acclimation
Training
Enjoyment
Consciousness

Fran, I'm going to pick on you for a minute. You're a bully. I've never seen you in a thread like this where you didn't resort to calling people "stupid" or "idiots" almost immediately when they don't agree with you. This is not a tactic of someone whose reasoning is sound... if your observations on the discussion at hand have merit and make logical sense, then you don't need to add disparaging remarks to others to bolster your point... your astute observations will have made your point already. Feeling the near-constant need to put others down when they don't agree with you is the tactic of someone who feels like they don't have a defensible position, and are merely trying to shout the loudest and "win" that way.

Also, posting a PM publicly which someone had the decency to not post on a thread where it was inappropriate is the height of childishness. "So we can see whose opinion to respect"? Please sell that pile of turds somewhere else, I'm not buying it... you don't respect ANYONE'S opinion who disagrees with you, so I think telling others that you're merely assisting them in "respecting others' opinions" is disingenuous in the highest.

To everyone who feels compelled to use words like "Enjoy", "Likes", "Wants", or "Feeling" when talking about their bugs... I would strongly suggest you either consider different wording, or change your outlook on the true capabilities of these bugs based on their anatomy, physiology, and biochemical makeup. They are not robust enough for these types of abstract thought processes... it's not to say that they are not interacting with you, after a fashion, but they do not "like" things, nor can they "enjoy" handling... it's simply not possible given what we KNOW is required in higher brain structures to produce these sorts of thought centers. I think at the end of the day MOST people could agree that they can "mostly adapt to you over time"... but still, handling is something we do for US, not them. Please don't ever kid yourselves about it, it will cause you stress you don't need in your life.

I think the discussion was going along fine until a few felt the need to be abrasive. Hopefully that's been dealt with. But to those of you on the "other side", tarantulas, at the end of the day, are just bugs. If you really want to "interact" with a pet and KNOW it likes you, enjoys spending time with you, wants to please you, and can show genuine affection, get a dog.

Can we please all be adults now?

Finally! Someone that thinks the same thing I do!

 

[Falk]

Strange that my spiders never "adapted" to me cleaning their enclosures.

 

[Terry D]

Falk, Here's where a little brief, occasional handling could....just maybe could..work to your advantaged. There have been a few replies here on this thread about conditioning and calming of spiders over time- and I'm not talking about stressed, bald individuals that will not eat.

I can just picture you now with your chain-mail gloves and full body armor + helmet with urticating hair deflection shield in place as you wield your 36" forceps to retrieve a bolus.

Cheers,

Terry

 

[Crows Arachnids]

Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuussseeeeeeeee me Terry. I just took my armor off to read this!? Although I don't use the chainmail, I have a gold plated 'knights' armor, just in case a hair thinks it can get through the chainmail! Is there a problem with that? Precautions, precautions my arachnopeer.

 

[Terry D]

Crows/Falk, Of course all meant in jest....but really!- and I'm not talking about things such as P ornata.

Btw, I did finally get a dose of T spinipes hairs after noticing a dead dubia several inches into the burrow. Pretty good itch after retrieving it, but nothing major.

On handling- I'll bet many think by now that I get the t's out to "play" with for extended periods, which is certainly NOT the case. The longest I ever had one out was approx 30 minutes for my 4"+ male pulchra. Other than that it was no more than 10-15 minutes, nearly always much less, say 1-2 minute crawl onto hand to keep 'em conditioned that I'm not a threat and then eased back into enc. I believe the practice actually stresses them less once they've become accustomed to it- definitely over some unconditioned animals that go into attack mode every time the lid is opened.
I will agree that some may or will never get accustomed. I've had at least one A hentzi like this. L klugi is getting better but at this point she'd still nail me! Ime it usually works- even with many defensive individuals- and often in a fairly short time

Cheers,

Terry

....Of course this would be an impossible hard task for those with jillions of spiders like y'all..............

 

[Crows Arachnids]

Crows/Falk, Of course all meant in jest....but really!- and I'm not talking about things such as P ornata.

Btw, I did finally get a dose of T spinipes hairs after noticing a dead dubia several inches into the burrow. Pretty good itch after retrieving it, but nothing major.

On handling- I'll bet many think by now that I get the t's out to "play" with for extended periods, which is certainly NOT the case. The longest I ever had one out was approx 30 minutes for my 4"+ male pulchra. Other than that it was no more than 10-15 minutes, nearly always much less, say 1-2 minute crawl onto hand to keep 'em conditioned that I'm not a threat and then eased back into enc. I believe the practice actually stresses them less once they've become accustomed to it- definitely over some unconditioned animals that go into attack mode every time the lid is opened.
I will agree that some may or will never get accustomed. I've had at least one A hentzi like this. L klugi is getting better but at this point she'd still nail me! Ime it usually works- even with many defensive individuals- and often in a fairly short time

Cheers,

Terry

Terry, I knew you were joking, I thought it was quite amusing actually! Tis why I tagged along your joke....I don't use a suit of armor....just a chemical protection suit....LOL :liar: