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I think she’s a iheringi

Discussion in 'Tarantula Questions & Discussions' started by Mslinger, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Mslinger

    Mslinger Arachnopeon

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    I purchased this tarantula under the name black woolly, listed scientific name was pulchra.
    I don’t believe she’s a pulchra, behaviorally acts like a G iheringi.
    Fun little beast, likes to come out when she thinks I’m not looking and clean out her hole (removes dead big parts) and drops them in different locations within tank. Fast/feisty/hungry
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Liquifin

    Liquifin Arachnobaron Active Member

    Either a G. inheringi or G. actaeon. Those two are very similar and quite hard to tell apart, but it certainly is not a G. pulchra.
     
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  3. Mslinger

    Mslinger Arachnopeon

    Thanks, ya from what I have read both species can act similar as juveniles. So “impossible” to tell apart at this age?
     
  4. Liquifin

    Liquifin Arachnobaron Active Member

    Almost impossible to tell apart in general. Even as adults, it's still very tricky to ID them properly.
     
  5. cold blood

    cold blood Moderator Staff Member

    Acteon was my guess as well.... @viper69 looked closely into the differrences between them and inheringi, he can possibly add clarity.
     
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  6. VanessaS

    VanessaS Grammostola Groupie Arachnosupporter

    I'm going with Grammostola actaeon. I have females of both, who are almost identical in size, and iheringi has that tell-tale swirl on their abdomens that this one seems to lack.
    Grammostola iheringi Juvenile Female.
    DSC04596-2.jpg

    Grammostola actaeon Juvenile Female.
    DSC06542-2.jpg
     
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  7. The Grym Reaper

    The Grym Reaper Arachnotank Arachnosupporter

    Brazilian Woolly Black is the common name for G. actaeon

    Na, adult actaeon lose the bright red on the abdomen, iheringi keep it.
     
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  8. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    According to the taxonomic literature, Grammostola iheringii has a very distinct spermatheca in which the two receptacles are very wide at the base and curve inward toward each other. Grammostola actaeon have the usual Grammostola spermatheca where the receptacles are mostly straight and the same width from base to top.

    I don't have either of these species so I can't say for sure if the distinct spermatheca as described is present in pet trade G. iheringii. Maybe someone has a molt from a sub adult or adult of either species can share some pictures.

    For illustrations, see the following papers.

    Schiapelli, R. D. & Gerschman de P., B. S. (1962a). Estudio de seis mudas de un ejemplar f del género Grammostola Simon, 1892 (Araneae: Theraphosidae). Physis, Revista de la Sociedad Argentina de Ciencias Naturales (C) 23: 11-13.

    Schiapelli, R. D. & Gerschman de P., B. S. (1962b). Importancia de las espermatecas en la sistemática de las arañas del suborden Mygalomorphae (Araneae). Physis, Revista de la Sociedad Argentina de Ciencias Naturales (C) 23: 69-75.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  9. dangerforceidle

    dangerforceidle Arachnobaron Active Member

    In addition, from the following:

    Mello-Leitão, C. F. de (1921a). On the genus Grammostola, Simon. Annals and Magazine of Natural History (9) 7: 293-305

    G. actaeon is described as having "scopula on protarsus i. covering more than half the lower side of the segment," whereas G. iheringi "scopula on protarsus i. covering less than half the lower side of the segment." In addition, the cephalothorax proportions will differ between the two species, with G. actaeon described as having a cephalothorax as wide as it is long, and G. iheringi longer than it is wide, and also much smaller than the combined lengths of patella and tibia of legs i and iv. In G. iheringi, leg iv should also be longer than leg i, which is another difference as G. actaeon doesn't have this proportion.

    Those notes may be out of date, but they were distinguishing characters at that time.

    Once you get a moult, you should be able to compare the spermatheca shape against the diagrams in the papers provided by AphonopelmaTX.
     
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  10. The Grym Reaper

    The Grym Reaper Arachnotank Arachnosupporter

    Not an adult (she was around 4", and not the best pic as it was ripped from my IG), but this is my girl's last moult.

    G. iheringi spermathecae.jpg
     
  11. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    A 4 inch leg span is adult enough to where the anatomy can be used for identification. Comparing your spermatheca picture with the illustrations in the papers I referenced, your tarantula would be Grammostola actaeon. I won't be confident to confirm that ID 100% until I see the spermatheca of the other red rump Grammostola species to know if they have the curved receptacles.

    I'm really hoping @VanessaS saves the molts of both of hers and posts some pictures of the spermatheca. :)
     
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  12. VanessaS

    VanessaS Grammostola Groupie Arachnosupporter

    I save them all!! Where possible, anyway.
    Wasn't there controversy over the fact that Grammostola iheringi in the hobby today is not the one that was described, though? My understanding was that Grammostola grossa in the hobby is what was originally described as Grammostola iheringi. Therefore, making the spermathecae in the original papers for a totally different tarantula?
    Luckily, I have 4" females of actaeon, iheringi and grossa, being the Grammostola groupie that I am. I can't remember what the condition of their exuvia was, but I can have a look for them if you'd like.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  13. The Grym Reaper

    The Grym Reaper Arachnotank Arachnosupporter

    That honestly wouldn't surprise me considering who I got her from :banghead:
     
  14. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    I haven't heard of the controversy you speak of, so I can't comment on any of it. All I can go by are the illustrations in the taxonomic papers. Since the original descriptions and subsequent papers on all three of those species are in languages I can't understand (German, Portuguese, and Spanish), I may very well be missing something.

    If you have molts of females of all three species, then please please please look for them and photograph the spermatheca if possible. I am dying to know if any of them have the curved spermathecal receptacles. :nailbiting:
     
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  15. VanessaS

    VanessaS Grammostola Groupie Arachnosupporter

    All are 3.5" and I did the best I could with my trusty cheap Amazon microscope. They're old, so they're pretty dried up.

    Grammostola actaeon
    salem2-2-2.jpg

    Grammostola iheringi
    Morgan2-2.jpg

    Grammostola grossa
    jinx4-2.jpg


    s6.jpg
    s5.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  16. AphonopelmaTX

    AphonopelmaTX Moderator Staff Member

    The uterus externus is blocking the view of the spermatheca, but as far as I can tell the picture for G. iheringi doesn't match to what the Schiapelli and Gerschman de P. papers have illustrated, but the picture for G. actaeon matches somewhat since the receptacles are curved. I am at a loss here. The pictures for G. iheringi and G. grossa have the typical Grammostola shape so those in themselves can't be used as diagnostic characters. The illustration sheet provided look like it came from a Gunter Schmidt paper and again the G. iheringi drawing doesn't match the Schiapelli and Gerschman de P. papers. If the illustrations really did come from Gunter Schmidt, then it can't be used to reliably identify anything since his publications were full of misidentifications and used material from the pet trade.

    As @dangerforceidle stated, the metatarsal scopulation of leg 1 in may reveal some differences with the quote "scopula on protarsus i. covering more than half the lower side of the segment," whereas G. iheringi "scopula on protarsus i. covering less than half the lower side of the segment." Protarsus = Metatarsus. The carapace length and width comparisons along with the leg segment measurements/ comparisons can't be used as diagnostic characters since that has been shown time and time again to vary among individuals within the same species.

    I guess this will remain a mystery. Thanks for providing the pictures though. It has been insightful.
     
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  17. dangerforceidle

    dangerforceidle Arachnobaron Active Member

    I agree, I had a lot of difficulty discerning these characters among photo examples. The paper is also very old, so I'm sure some of the descriptions will end up inaccurate. The differences in scopulae should be reasonably diagnostic, however, as they are still used in taxonomic classifications as far as I can tell. The only issue is the language is kind of vague with "greater than half" and "less than half." How narrow a margin are we talking about? Visually those can both appear to be "half" without measuring.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
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  18. VanessaS

    VanessaS Grammostola Groupie Arachnosupporter

    I will rig something to backlight them.

    @AphonopelmaTX they both look pretty much the same to me. Maybe any differences will become more obvious when they get larger.

    actaeon
    salem07-2-2.jpg

    iheringi
    morgan03-2.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2019
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  19. Mslinger

    Mslinger Arachnopeon

    Oh wow, I read that adult acetea
    Wow I read that adult Actaeon lose the read coloration as adults and have more of a sedative behavior aposed to iheringi.
     
  20. Mslinger

    Mslinger Arachnopeon

    Wow the taxonomy gets deep here, I’m not sure if you explained the swirl you speak of. I couldn’t visually see a diff in the pic you posted.