Hybrids = bad. Why?

[groovyspider]

NOW THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT LOL seriously tho that WOULD END HORRIBLY lol and furthermore scare more people away from the hobby and these fascinating creatures... like i said... some thoughts/wishes are better off left as that

could u imagagine (spelled wrong on purpose for dramtic effect) lpxMinax,Blondi!!!

 

[Kraine]

This thread... is horrifying. Jesus.

 

[Tarac]

As a systematist, I find these sorts of threads both amusing and useless.

Yes, it's ridiculous in a PET hobby. This isn't some group of tarantula taxonomists or anything, you are talking about the pet trade. Walk into any plant nursery and see how many things are named incorrectly or even named the same thing. Cows, cats, dogs, horses, snakes, birds, and... yes, even invertebrates (ever checked out Insectnet.com? Full of intentionally bred hybrids that do sell for good money) that are kept in captivity are all bred to the umpteenth degree- what about inbreeding? We want to complain about how other people are handling their pets? Then shut down the tarantula hobby altogether. Otherwise accept the good and bad that comes with the trade, this is not some research institution with that sensibility in mind. Moreover, there's a whole back story about how all these various "species" ended up in the trade anyway which hasn't even been addressed. How can you demand pure lineage when you can't even really say for sure that organism in your hand has been classified with anything other than a vaguely descriptive common name disguised as latin by giving it a *possibly* correct generic name? All of this sounds like some of us are trying to elevate our involvement to something beyond exotic pet keepers. I understand that the sensibilities of many invert keepers are different from the average cat owner but it doesn't make it any different in the end.

Frankly it's more ridiculous when we are discussing maintaining a pure species when we have things like P. "blue Brazil" and P. "pink S. Ecuador" anyway. I can just see how devastating it would be to the world if someone were to offer a P. "purple brazador" hybrid! What would we ever do to keep those "species" pure?

---------- Post added 12-06-2011 at 02:26 PM ----------

It is possible for two different Genus to mate, and produce but there offspring will not be fertile. Just as in horses and donkeys they are actualy two different Genus... there offspring lack the chromosoms that produce sperm and eggs.

Wow, that's completely wrong. Lots of intergeneric hybrids exist in the wild, natural hybrids. Orchids do this all the time. Sometimes with three or four genera involved in the parentage, and these would be genera which have been recently revised and are considered monophylletic.

For invertebrates, Samia cynthia (introduced by the Victorians to the US from China in an effort to start a silk industry) and Antherea polyphemus hybridize and produce fertile offspring. Happens all the time, your statement is a misconception- not a rare one, it's a common misunderstanding. But it's wrong so don't pass that along.

 

[patrickbull]

What would we ever do to keep those "species" pure?

"WE" would do Nothing........

Perhaps it would lead some to the realization that this separateness is an illusion anyway. ALL is really just ONE organism across a big wide spectrum. Awhile ago "WE" developed this thing called language and began to name things. No longer were we "ONE" living together at this point. We began to see ourselves as separate from the entire organism, when in actuality we are one part of the whole.

I've studied the whole Hybrid issue my whole 17 years in the reptile/invert hobby. I've yet to see ANY harm done to either hobby from hybrids, however, hybridization has and still occurs quite often.

I remember being a kid and reading about the Hybrid Snake issue and debates long before this issue really showed up in the T hobby. Guess what.....their debates and issues against hybridization were the exact same arguments. It has now been at least 10-15 years since I read those debates. Hybrid snakes are common now and not looked down to the extent that they used to be, in fact some are encouraged (jungle corns) And Well frankly, I have seen NO harm done to the snake hobby whatsoever.

Fearing something that is here to stay will get you nothing but stress lol. Embrace what is here and look at the positives of it. Why doesn't anyone focus on the positives hybridization brings about? Oh wait, people like to dwell in negative vibrations! I forgot what sphere I was standing on for a minute.

 

[LucasNorth]

Hybridization ruins part of the hobby for a lot of hobbyists (confusion on labelling, increased doubt about the species they receive) and will lead to frustration for them, I see there concerns and criticisms about it (I know it goes far beyond what i stated).
Nothing is natural about keeping T's in captivity (as Dave mentioned about preserving a reflection of the wild)
People who will never go on this board or read a message about the dangers of hybridization are going to cross breed so you are not going to stopping cross-breeding through internet argumentation, no matter how skilful your keyboarding skills are.
I think cross-breeding has scientific value to it, but outside of that I agree that we should not intentionally try to make "cooler" spider.
That being said I would not hunt someone down for doing it, and if you would be a bit kinder and PM someone about your concerns you will have a MUCH better chance of changing their opinions on the matter.
I think you all have points and nobody in here should be taken as an ultimate authority in what is correct. I'm probably going to be flamed.

 

[Hornets inverts]

I dont personally know xhexdx but i do agree with most of what he says. He does come off harsh but he has the balls to come out, say it how it is without the backlash he tends to get. Hybrids are a step in the wrong direction, whether it be in the invert, reptile or dart frog hobby, all it does it add confusion. Many species are very similar and can be hard to distinguish from one and other, bring hybrids into the equation and they are going to be mistaked as pure, bred with and screw up the gene pool, no doubts that will happen, just a matter of time. While kori did do the right thing and advertise the spider as a hybrid i agree with joe in saying its irresponible in the first place just selling that spider. If you have a hybrid keep it, if you cant keep it then freeze it, under no circumstances should they ever be distributed no matter how clearly labeled.

As for the person having a winge about someone freezing hybrids and feeding them to other spiders and "not valuing life". I assume you feed your animals feeder insects, do you not value life? Honestly how is it any different to using any other species as feeders?

 

[jbm150]

I love how some justify it: it happens all the time in other hobbies, it's going to happen anyways because people will do whatever they want. How about we don't go the way of other hobbies? How about we hold ourselves to higher standards and keep our species as pure as we possibly can? But alas, that's all elitist scientist-y talk, isn't it?

 

[jayefbe]

I love how some justify it: it happens all the time in other hobbies, it's going to happen anyways because people will do whatever they want. How about we don't go the way of other hobbies? How about we hold ourselves to higher standards and keep our species as pure as we possibly can? But alas, that's all elitist scientist-y talk, isn't it?

I am in COMPLETE agreement. That is why I love the T hobby. Because we are more informed, more dedicated, and more scientifically engaged than most other "pet" hobbies.

 

[goodoldneon]

I, for one, am looking forward to the day scientists finally create – The Mantula.

 

[1hughjazzspider]

I agree with everything Joe said/did. I probably wouldn't have had the balls to post a link to Kori's ad like he did, but I won't condemn him for it. I probably would've just let it go and not said anything so kudos to Joe. I for one will not ever buy anything from Kori now after viewing this. I won't even look at Kori's List classified ads anymore.

 

[harmroelf]

Those who create and sell hybrids don't care about the hobby, cause it doesn't even need explanation why it should be avoided, the fact that there is even discussion about it shows how rotten some people are.

 

[Transient]

While I disagree with hybridization of any animal, I don't agree with verbal attacks on the people that do it. It doesn't reverse what they have done. It doesn't help, it just serves to create petty drama. I clicked on this thread expecting to see a scientific and mature discussion on the downfalls of crossbreeding, but instead I see a bunch of adults acting like it's eighth grade and Sally took Kimberly's boyfriend so now Sally needs to be shamed.

I honestly do not understand why this thread exists. It irks me that this is supposed to be a helpful forum for tarantula hobbyist but so far all I see is children.

 

[Travis K]

I honestly do not understand why this thread exists. It irks me that this is supposed to be a helpful forum for tarantula hobbyist but so far all I see is children.

There are a lot of people on the boards that choose to ignore threads like this.

 

[grayzone]

AFTER ALL THIS TIME PEOPLE ARE STILL DEBATING THIS TOPIC????? Guess this is one of those threads that are kinda like politics or religion. everybody has an opinion that cant be swayed....I JUST CANT BELIEVE NOBODY HAS EVER POSTED A PIC OF THE HYBRID T THAT CAUSED ALL THIS.... i am still curious to see what a hybrid looks like

 

[goodoldneon]

As is the case with other specialized hobbies or professions (computer programmers/engineers come to mind), I think the tarantula hobby attracts some odd individuals, some of whom lack tact and/or social skills. Hopefully this will be not interpreted disparagingly, as I am not intending to make light of the disorder, but, based on personal experience, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the less socially adept members on the board fall with the Asperger’s spectrum.

A coworker of mine has Asperger’s, and he is one of the most intelligent people I’ve ever met, but he often lacks the ability to communicate in ways that are considered socially acceptable. He often comes across as rude and insensitive and is simply unaware that calling someone else “dumb” or making them feel that way is not acceptable.

Those are my two cents.

 

[venom81]

well i dont know much,but am sure i dont want to turn into the next AB Simon Cowell...now about hybrids, i only ask why are they needed in the hobby? dont whe have numerous ts species already?am not agains anybody who does this, as long as he's responsable.the only the only concern is approving this is only going to open doors to those that want to make money, (for example)selling a hybrid label B.smithis to someone that dont know much about ts would buy there first, like bootlegged merchandise.where i live people make money out of stuff like that, and most of them operate in flea markets or swap meets and you won belive the things they sell there.
if i offend anybody please forgive me but those are my thoughts about the hybrid issue.btw excuse my english writing its not good but am trying

 

[grayzone]

your English is better than a lot of American's English i've seen around here lol, thanks for your input..i get what your'e saying and that's why its such a controversial topic. there are tons of reasons hybrids are bad ideas and only like one or two i can think of that make it sound good.... it all comes down to judgement and common sense. (still waiting to see the t that started this thread)

 

[Tarac]

I love how some justify it: it happens all the time in other hobbies, it's going to happen anyways because people will do whatever they want. How about we don't go the way of other hobbies? How about we hold ourselves to higher standards and keep our species as pure as we possibly can? But alas, that's all elitist scientist-y talk, isn't it?

No, it isn't at all. The issue is being unable to step outside yourself long enough to realize that it isn't science, it's a pet trade. That
s a very easy distinction to make, blurring the lines is just to make you feel superior when there is no justification. You can absolutely hold science up to those high standards, it should be this way. But all this "my hobby is soooo scientific" is just fluffing yourself. If you want to be a scientist do what I did and get a bunch of degrees, then you can publish in established, peer reviewed journals why it is the the hybrid tarantula is epitome of irresponsibility with the accompanying data to support it. Gotta understand the limitations of the venue, hobbyist tarantula keepers are not scientists always and as such there are different standards.

You can absolutely choose not buy hybrid T's. But if you don't like that they even exist then there should not be a pet trade for tarantulas at all as it is very apparent that the captive care of any organism ultimately leads to manipulation of the wild form simply by virtue of captive husbandry- that's the one unilateral rule for all organisms maintained by people throughout time, flora to fauna. It's not justifying it (I already said I would never buy one either, it doesn't suit me), it's pointing out that you only *think* you are "more informed, more dedicated, and more scientifically engaged" than other hobbies. It means you don't know much about other hobbies and don't understand the limitations of your own. Ever met a hobbyist mechanic? Some are just like academic engineers, others are some crazy guy with a pet monster truck in the back yard named Godzilla. Really, it's not different than gaming, horticulture, model planes or butterfly collecting. You can be an expert or an idiot at any of them. Rather arrogant to presume you know so much about the mind-set of everyone else- of course there will be a spectrum of dedication and knowledge in every hobby. This type of discussion and criticism ultimately just sounds like a bunch of hobbyists trying to give themselves honorary degrees.

 

[goodoldneon]

If you want to be a scientist do what I did and get a bunch of degrees, then you can publish in established, peer reviewed journals why it is the the hybrid tarantula is epitome of irresponsibility with the accompanying data to support it. Gotta understand the limitations of the venue, hobbyist tarantula keepers are not scientists always and as such there are different standards.

Just think of all the money you could have saved had you just become an "arachnosupporter" - not only would you become an automatic expert, you'd also have one of those cool avatars.

You screwed up, man - you screwed up.

 

[High_Rolling_T]

(I already said I would never buy one either, it doesn't suit me)

This right here is one of the biggest problems with hybrids(and interestingly enough has absolutely nothing to do with thinking I'm being more scientific than anyone else).

You claim that you personally wouldn't own a hybrid. How do you know that? Who's to say that a tarantula you bought isn't hybridized? Do you key out every single tarantula you own to guarantee that you don't own hybrids? Or do you, like the majority of hobbyist, visually identify a tarantula you plan to buy and rely on the word of the seller. The chances of owning a hybrid, intentional or not, increase immensly if everyone were to decide hyrbridzation is OK and they want to take a shot at it too.

When many people start to hybridize, how many of these hybrids will look close enough to one or the other of their parents to be easily mistaken as that species? Who is to say that they will be correctly labeled as hybrids? It's quite easy to make a buck if you mislabel them as something else when they really aren't that. And let's assume the seller is honest and labels them all correctly as hybrids and sells all the offspring. How many of the buyers will care enough to remember the exact genetic makeup of the tarantulas, or payed attention to what they were buying, or had enough knowledge to care that marking them as a hybrid is important, or reaches a point in their life where they just absolutely have to get rid of their tarantulas and don't care to give all the specifics on what they're selling, or gives it as a gift to their sister's brother's friend with just basic instructions of care, or a million other scenarios where it is no longer known to be hybrid. It won't be long until people are breeding these hybrids believing they are breeding pure species and thus furthering the hybridization and muddying of the gene pools. Even now, with such a stigma on hybridization and almost no one doing it(publicly), the amount of mislabelled and incorrectly identified tarantulas is quite a lot.

I for one would like to know for sure that I am getting exactly what I'm paying for, not hoping that what I'm getting doesn't just look enough like what I want. Its the same as wanting a pure bred dog(yes, I know, dogs are one species/tarantulas are many. The concept of a species being broken into many breeds and a genus being broken into many species is the same thing on different levels). If I'm going to be spending $3-4,000 on a English bulldog, I better be getting a pure bred English bulldog, not a mutt that looks enough like an English bulldog to take my money.

On the hobby level, hybrids just cause confusion on what anyone really owns, and in cases already(such as Avicularia spp.), it is already hard enough to figure out what one owns without hybrids being in the picture.