HOT waiver

[jayefbe]

Something nobody has brought up so far....voice verification over the phone. It is much more difficult to hide lack of experience or age when having a real-time conversation where you hear each other speak. If you're concerned, you can always ask questions that an experienced keeper should be comfortable with. If there are too many "ums...." and long pauses, then maybe the prospective buyer needs some more time to gain experience and research.

I think that may be the way I go. I'll definitely require a signed waiver, and if it's a user I'm unfamiliar with, may also require a short phone call.

 

[morelia]

what you often have to do to buy restricted items over the internet is use a credit card or debit card which sorta insures that the customer is over 18 but with the master card gift cards it can be hard to distinguish between the gift cards and the real deal cards [ and a minor can buy the gift card i know cause i have bought em before and im only 16 ] and i will talk to a lady i go to church with who is both a nurse and a attorney and i will post what answer [ if any ] i get to this

 

[Michiel]

Just ask for a paper copy of an ID if you think someone is underaged.

 

[SixShot666]

Just asked for a photocopy of the state ID....That's what most online sellers does. Plus also have them sign a waiver.

 

[Venari]

Have them take a picture of themselves holding a beer in one hand (preferably at a bar) and holding a piece of paper with their AB username and date on it, in the other hand.

I like this idea. However, it also shows that you might have alcohol related accidents with the business end of the stinger.

Something nobody has brought up so far....voice verification over the phone. It is much more difficult to hide lack of experience or age when having a real-time conversation where you hear each other speak. If you're concerned, you can always ask questions that an experienced keeper should be comfortable with. If there are too many "ums...." and long pauses, then maybe the prospective buyer needs some more time to gain experience and research.

I think that may be the way I go. I'll definitely require a signed waiver, and if it's a user I'm unfamiliar with, may also require a short phone call.

This is a good idea, for the sellers protection. Many buyers will think this "inconvenient", and not bother with the call, saving you a headache. Serious buyers should not be put off by a long-distance charge, and a few minutes of their time, to get themselves a hot scorp.

Just ask for a paper copy of an ID if you think someone is underaged.

Certain information would have to be redacted, unless they don't mind the "vendor" knowing some personal info (IE, if you're in canada, your provincial Health insurance number).

But, I have never owned hots, nor do I plan to. This is just personal opinion

 

[Ralph_moore84]

After reading this thread.There's alot of interesting ideas.I agree that underage or unexperienced keepers shouldn't have any dangerous animal.I think having them call you,and answer your questions would be the best way to go.If they really want them.They will call.I know I would.

 

[Nomadinexile]

This is a tough one. Good idea for a thread though John! The phone call would work for a lot of people, but there will be a lot of "borderline" cases too.
A fake ID that is actually a real one (I know someone who made them long ago, with official seal, and computer files added to strip), these can be bought for $100. Plus, there's always the older brother, the "hey man", and the parents ID being used. However, I think there is something in the law for alcohol sales, that says something like, "if you take every attempt to verify age and believe to the best of your knowledge ID provided is accurate, you can not be held responsible for serving minors" ---something like that...

I don't know if you will ever be able to verify age online, but I believe there is a way to limit liability. We may need a lawyer to stop by to figure that out though! And that still doesn't protect the hobby from the sensational sting.

That said, neither does selling to adults only. You can sell only to people over 50, but if that person accidentally lets it out, and it stings their grandson and kills them, it wouldn't affect the hobby any less than if you sold to a kid using a fake I.D. In fact, that may be even more sensationalistic because it goes right in with the "irresponsible adults around kids" news that they just gobble right up.

With all things concerned though, a backdrop of horrors in this world should override any concerns we have, although as far as reactionary politicking is concerned, it would be of little help.

And for Warren, I agree that you are probably better at keeping arachnids than many adults. I would much rather sell you a Tityus than most of the adults I know personally! However, legally, that would put me at huge risk.
If you wanted a hot from me, your parent/guardian would have to buy it, and they can give it to you if they so choose. That may not sound ideal to you, but it is the best thing for adults who want to stay out of jail/ or stay away from getting sued and loosing their house!

 

[forrestpengra]

Honestly, I wouldn't consider sending out a 'hot' anything without a completed waiver. Remove as much liability from yourself as possible. If you're serious about this have it drafted up by a lawyer. It'll probably cost you a couple hundred bucks but could save you from bankruptsy, if something were to happen.

If people are interested in buying a 'hot' from you, you should have an application package of relavent information they must provide. This will (1) show you they are truely intersted (2) hopefully prove they are capable (3) scare some respect into them (4) hopefully indemnify yourself.

 

[OneSickPuppy]

John theres really nothing you can do. But if I had to come up with a way to figure out who is an adult id say take each person who wants to buy one to a chatroom. Once they get there, tell them you are 17/f. Trust me ... theyll send you credit card info.

Realistically though ... if they own any scorpion, T or pede, it is already medically significant. If you have to question the safety of something you are selling then clearly it is of bad judgement to sell at all.

In the porn business, a credit card is proof to us that you are at least 18 years of age btw.

 

[spinningspider]

if you want some good advice on what to put in a waiver just email some of the people that sell hot snakes. they basically state that the person selling the animal is not responsible for any injury to the person (and friends/family) who bought the animal. most also ask for ID. its a pretty simple for that can be signed by both parties and faxed. but thats just how I've done it.

 

[titus]

if you want some good advice on what to put in a waiver just email some of the people that sell hot snakes. they basically state that the person selling the animal is not responsible for any injury to the person (and friends/family) who bought the animal. most also ask for ID. its a pretty simple for that can be signed by both parties and faxed. but thats just how I've done it.

I second this you see it on almost every website that sells hot's. Just make sure they know this up front and if so inclined have a lawyer write it up for you and state the firm, and address. If you have a website it's best to have the lawyer write a full sales policy and post it. Any online sale is a agreement based on that posted sales policy, if it has been read or not. If you don't have a website simply post it in the e-mail. No one needs to sign it, but you have to prove that it was provided, it's on the buyer to read it and agree before making the buy.

 

[lester]

Hi guys,

this issue on hot waiver is kind of interesting and i would like to know more on it and matters relating to it like produces , verification methods , etc .

can anyone pm me or send me a copy of the waiver form format ?? it would be great help to me and my local people back here and also as to shut the mouth of some "flame starter" back at my local area .

Your help will greatly forever rem.

thanks

 

[DireWolf0384]

Keep in mind, a waiver may turn some potential buyers off, but we cannot afford a lawsuit. Also, doing online sales means we cannot verify 100% their age or even their name. But once they sign it, we are somewhat off the hook. But these days a lawyer could poke a hole through the Waiver. I may consult with an attorney to help me draft a waiver,

 

[lester]

Keep in mind, a waiver may turn some potential buyers off, but we cannot afford a lawsuit. Also, doing online sales means we cannot verify 100% their age or even their name. But once they sign it, we are somewhat off the hook. But these days a lawyer could poke a hole through the Waiver. I may consult with an attorney to help me draft a waiver,

Hi direwolf0384,

thanks for the nice advises. point noted.. btw ,likewise mentioned, i am interested in this hot wavier thigy.. are u able to share with me on the result from the discussion when u are done with ur attorney ??

your help will be very much apperciated.

thanks

 

[BeakerTheMighty]

Just my two cents but I'm unaware of anyone else, at least in terms of larger-scale operations doing this (making people sign waivers) at the moment. I'm a pretty skeptical/cautious person and if given the choice to purchase something (pretty much anything) from two vendors, I would opt for the one that doesn't require me to sign any sort of legal document, even for if it meant a dollar or two more. I worked in a store that sold hots sometimes. I wouldn't sell any hot species of scorp or even the "medically significant" spiders without some ID if I wasn't certain the buyer was 18, but that was in a retail setting, and I informed anyone who was considering or trying to purchase it that the venom was capable of causing serious reaction or death in humans. That was pretty much the legal precaution taken. It's pretty pathetic where we have gotten to with lawsuits in the U.S. especially these days, so I can understand your concern, but I think you might be worrying excessively. I might bring it before an attorney, but I know of many large scale dealers that would probably risk a lot if their incorporated firms were sued, and none of them require the waiver. If your really nervous maybe talking with an attorney would be a good idea (as neither I nor any other poster on the forum that I am aware of is one). But I dunno how far your responsibility extends legally beyond making certain that they know the scorpion is dangerous and making sure they are an adult, and I think you might drive away some adults who already keep/have kept hots (such as myself) by requiring extra hassle in the purchasing process. Once again, just my very long worded two cents. If you do talk to an attorney, I would be very curious to hear their opinion on the matter.

 

[Hoosier7]

I know Todd Gearheart requires a venomous waiver for buyers (although 2 other vendors that I've bought hots from did not.) Yes, it is a nuisance, but I can understand it.
In the end, you'll never have a perfect defense against a clever lawyer, but if you show that you've done due diligence to insure against underage sales and sales to morons, that should go a long ways if something were to happen.
If it were me, I'd try to get permission to use a waiver that is currently being used by another vendor- that way your defense is, "due diligence was performed, in accordance with standard practice in the industry". Hey, you can only do so much...

my $0.02

-Brandon

 

[cacoseraph]

I know Todd Gearheart requires a venomous waiver for buyers (although 2 other vendors that I've bought hots from did not.) Yes, it is a nuisance, but I can understand it.
In the end, you'll never have a perfect defense against a clever lawyer, but if you show that you've done due diligence to insure against underage sales and sales to morons, that should go a long ways if something were to happen.
If it were me, I'd try to get permission to use a waiver that is currently being used by another vendor- that way your defense is, "due diligence was performed, in accordance with standard practice in the industry". Hey, you can only do so much...

my $0.02

-Brandon

see, i think this is the real heart of the matter, ultimately. i am still pretty sure you can not fully protect yourself from liability with a waiver in the USA. BUT, i do think that if it comes down to a court case and you have something they signed fully detailing the possible implications of a sting, caging requirements, further research they should do, etc. i think that a judge will be more inclined to put more of the like, burden of responsibility on the owner and not the vendor.

however, when you are any kind of business, in the USA, it tends to change things for you, legally. biz tends to be held to tighter like, standards in doing their business than a hobbyist might be. but... and this could be a biggie, actually... if you incorporate your business it has a strong strong effect of shielding and separating your personal like, liability from that of the biz. forming an (Limited Liability Corporation) LLC or something for the purposes of legal shielding could be a very real form of protection for some of you. but that is big time "get a lawyer land". forming an LLC itself is relatively easy and inexpensive. it is the actual changes to your personal liability that you want a lawyer to suss out for you.

as for what species to put on there... well, if you want to umbrella it you could do all species. have a few sections with like, serious species, painful species, all other species. i mean, if you are going to try to grab some protection you might as well get as much as you can. plus, having some form of "this is what you need to take care of a scorpion, bare minimum" in there might save you some bad husbandry head aches later on

i would definitely do it for all buthidae and all other scorps that have any kind of symptoms greater than local pain and swelling